Are CAP Wings are Enlisted Aircrew Wings?

[SAR-EMT1]

I was looking at the ribbon rack page and was struck by something:
All our CAP 'Officers' are wearing enlisted Aircrew Wings.

The current pilot insignia is a set of wings with a circle wherein we have a triangle containing a prop. Observers add an "O"

In the Air Force the Officers wear a Shield in the center of the wings with enlisted crewmembers having a circle.

Any one have a desire to have the triangle and prop inside a shield?

- I know seems minor, but when it hit me it really hit me.

[lordmonar]

I don't know how to respond to this as I am an AD NCO as well as a CAP Officer.

What......"enlisted wings" not good enough for you? 

Sorry if that come out too strong but CAP pilot wings ARE NOT enlisted aviation wings.  They are CAP pilot wings.

One side of me see's what you are saying and agrees with you (try to be more like the airforce)....but the enlisted side of me wants to just jump up and down on your head and scream at you for 20 minutes. 

We have only had that type of wing for 60 years or so....let's leave good enough alone.

[PA Guy]

Any one have a desire to have the triangle and prop inside a shield?

- I know seems minor, but when it hit me it really hit me.

NO I am proud of my CAP wings and have no desire to imitate the AF in wing design.

[DNall]

Kind of like this:


This issue has been covered before. Advise you use the search function for indepth past discussion.

[SAR-EMT1]

DNALL:
Seen those before, in fact I think I posted in that thread, but the search came up dry.

Lordmonar: I did not mean to offend you or any NCO.

Question: How does one get CAP Astronaut Status? AFSCFC attendance? Working as a tour guide Down in Florida? 

[BillB]

The CAP requirements for Astronaut wings are the same as USAF. You have to be on a space flight. As explained to me by a Navy Astronaut, you have to be in zero gravity for over ten minutes, meaning a flight on the space shuttle. If memory serves, CAP has only awarded 1  Astronaut rating. And I have no idea if wings were presented.

[AlphaSigOU]

The CAP requirements for Astronaut wings are the same as USAF. You have to be on a space flight. As explained to me by a Navy Astronaut, you have to be in zero gravity for over ten minutes, meaning a flight on the space shuttle. If memory serves, CAP has only awarded 1  Astronaut rating. And I have no idea if wings were presented.

AF rules for getting the 'shooting star' (astronaut) designator on wings is to fly at least once to an altitude of 50 miles above the earth, which is why some of the X-15 pilots earned astronaut wings. While it's common to see the shooting star on pilot wings, the designator has been awarded to rated navigators and other aircrew, though they may not display them on their uniform.

The NASA astronaut shooting star lapel pin (in silver) is awarded once one completes astronaut training; once one completes a space flight, the silver pin becomes a gold one. (Only one gold astronaut pin was jeweled with a single diamond on the star; this was awarded to the late Deke Slayton by the Apollo 1 widows - it was intended to be flown on the Apollo 1 mission and presented by the astronauts after the flight.)

At one time, astronauts used to also get promoted after a space flight, but nowadays you have to fly outside earth orbit (that is, to the moon) to get promoted.

[mdickinson]

I could be wrong, but I think CAP wings have remained largely unchanged since the organization was founded. That is the reason that I would argue against changing our wings. They have been fine thus far.

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

[RiverAux]

Even if they are, I don't think it is a big enough deal to worry about. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I could be wrong, but I think CAP wings have remained largely unchanged since the organization was founded. That is the reason that I would argue against changing our wings. They have been fine thus far.

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

There have been several changes to CAP wings.

In WWII we had the "Spread Eagle" wings, with observers having a single wing.  Nobody liked them because they looked a LOT like Hermann Goring's design for the badge worn by Nazi Party members serving with the Luftwaffe.

After the war, we had the "Droop Wings."  They looked a little like RAF wings, but at least the observers got a 2-wing symmetrical badge.

In the early 1980's we went to the current wing design.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Of course, since my motocycle wreck made it painful to exercise, I'm starting to look more like Hermann Goring!

[ColonelJack]

^^ Hey, that's my cousin you're talking about!!!  (Seventh cousin twice removed, but still ... )

We never invite cousin Hermann to anything.  He's not a nice man.

Jack

[DNall]

The thread was about scanner wings. The addition of the astronaut wings there is part of a public relations effort. The idea was to make all NASA astronauts AE members of CAP, incl award of these wings. That would hopefully spur greater involvement by them in our current AE programs, and possibly pull a couple over after they are done with NASA.

Anyway, the CAP wings look like they do so they won't be confused with the AF ones. The wings above use the AF-style outter wings with a full-color inner using a dif shield shape. This allows greater alignment with them while still maintaining a highly distinctive yet attractive design highlighting our own traditions & symbols.

[Pylon]

I like my wings the way they are.   

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

Does the Air Force have any NCO pilots?  I did'nt think they did.

[LtCol White]

I don't know how to respond to this as I am an AD NCO as well as a CAP Officer.

What......"enlisted wings" not good enough for you? 

Sorry if that come out too strong but CAP pilot wings ARE NOT enlisted aviation wings.  They are CAP pilot wings.

One side of me see's what you are saying and agrees with you (try to be more like the airforce)....but the enlisted side of me wants to just jump up and down on your head and scream at you for 20 minutes. 

We have only had that type of wing for 60 years or so....let's leave good enough alone.

Agreed that they should stay the same. NHQ is planning to expand the NCO  program. Given this, you would have to have enlisted pilot's wings for the SNCO's if one wanted to be a mission pilot. Having our wings as they are makes them distinct to CAP. They look good and I see no problem with the shape.

[Pylon]

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

Does the Air Force have any NCO pilots?  I did'nt think they did.

They have enlisted aircrew, for sure.

[Short Field]

the enlisted side of me wants to just jump up and down on your head and scream at you for 20 minutes.

I'll hold him for you if you will hold him for me......

[BlueLakes1]

I could be wrong, but I think CAP wings have remained largely unchanged since the organization was founded. That is the reason that I would argue against changing our wings. They have been fine thus far.

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

Quite the contrary, I'm not familiar of any branch with enlisted pilots who are currently serving. The last enlisted pilot in the USAF retired in 1957 (interestingly, he rose to the grade of Lt. Colonel during WWII, then reverted back to his pre-war grade of Master Sergeant at the end of the war). Incidentally, rated enlisted pilots wore the same pilot wings as their officer counterparts, not different ones.

(For more info, try http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1427)

While we don't have many exceptions, the possibility of having an NCO pilot in CAP is much greater than of there being one on active duty. While there aren't many NCOs in CAP to begin with, we would allow one to be a CAP pilot; the military services require either a commission or a warrant.

Our pilot wings have been changed a bit as well. The "drooped wing" design was used until 1976-1977; we didn't have upswept wings, similar to the USAF wings, until then. As such, there's not a huge historical reason to not change. I'd be in favor of a change not because I was to be more like the Air Force, but because I'd like to be able to tell at a glance whether or not someone is a pilot or observer without having to get into their personal space to find the "O".

[scooter]

the enlisted side of me wants to just jump up and down on your head and scream at you for 20 minutes.

I'll hold him for you if you will hold him for me......

If you need additional help, let me know.

Also, there are not enlisted AF rated pilots that I ever heard of in a 22 year AF flying career. There were however, tons of professional enlisted aircrew members.

[SJFedor]

but because I'd like to be able to tell at a glance whether or not someone is a pilot or observer without having to get into their personal space to find the "O".

I've always found that saying "Yo, you over by the donuts, you a pilot or an observer?" works fairly well 

It'd be nice to have something a little different, but, it's probably one of those "wish in one hand, crap in the other, see which one fills up first" type deals. Doubt it'll ever happen.

And, again, I state my objections to scanners having wings. Compared to what observers *should be* capable of doing, scanner is a walk in the figurative park, and I don't believe to be justified as a decoration. That, and most people don't just stop as a scanner, they're using it as the pre-req for either MP or MO.

No sense in making people spend MORE money on wings they can wear for 6 months until they finish MO.

[mikeylikey]

^ Agreed

[riffraff]

Does the Air Force have any NCO pilots?  I did'nt think they did.

The USAF has had exactly two (2) NCO pilots. Sergeants George Holmes and Tom Rafferty became the first, last, and only sergeant pilots to serve in the USAF. Both were former USAAF officer pilots during WW2.

Staff Sergeant pilots were trained up until November 1942. After that, Public Law 99 (the law that authorized the training of SSgt pilots) was replaced by Public Law 658 (the Flight Officer Act of July 1942). Flight Officers were the very first of the aviator warrant officers. While most FOs were later commissioned, the concept ultimately evolved into the Warrant Officer aviator program in use by the US Army.

For those interested in enlisted pilots, I can readily recommend the book, "They Also Flew: The Enlisted Pilot Legacy 1912-1942" by Lee Arbon. ISBN: 1560988371

[John Bryan]

I could be wrong, but I think CAP wings have remained largely unchanged since the organization was founded. That is the reason that I would argue against changing our wings. They have been fine thus far.

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

Quite the contrary, I'm not familiar of any branch with enlisted pilots who are currently serving. The last enlisted pilot in the USAF retired in 1957 (interestingly, he rose to the grade of Lt. Colonel during WWII, then reverted back to his pre-war grade of Master Sergeant at the end of the war). Incidentally, rated enlisted pilots wore the same pilot wings as their officer counterparts, not different ones.

(For more info, try http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1427)

While we don't have many exceptions, the possibility of having an NCO pilot in CAP is much greater than of there being one on active duty. While there aren't many NCOs in CAP to begin with, we would allow one to be a CAP pilot; the military services require either a commission or a warrant.

Our pilot wings have been changed a bit as well. The "drooped wing" design was used until 1976-1977; we didn't have upswept wings, similar to the USAF wings, until then. As such, there's not a huge historical reason to not change. I'd be in favor of a change not because I was to be more like the Air Force, but because I'd like to be able to tell at a glance whether or not someone is a pilot or observer without having to get into their personal space to find the "O".

I went to the Naval Aviation Musuem in Florida and saw uniforms for enlisted pilots and blimp pilots.....that must have been fun

Although the days of the NCO or Sgt /Petty Officer pilots are long gone, lets not forget their is still one group of "non-commissioned" American military pilots......the US Army Warrant Officer pilots....just my $0.03

[lordmonar]

the enlisted side of me wants to just jump up and down on your head and scream at you for 20 minutes.

I'll hold him for you if you will hold him for me......

If you need additional help, let me know.

Also, there are not enlisted AF rated pilots that I ever heard of in a 22 year AF flying career. There were however, tons of professional enlisted aircrew members.

What!  You guys don't think I can hand a lowly 1st Lt?  Come-on guys!  I'll just brain him with my lifer's cup and sit on his chest!

Then spend the next two hours telling him what the Air Force was like while he was still watching Sesame Street.  About that time the Col and the Chief will make me stop and everything will be just peachy!

[BlueLakes1]

I could be wrong, but I think CAP wings have remained largely unchanged since the organization was founded. That is the reason that I would argue against changing our wings. They have been fine thus far.

A second reason is: in the RealMilitary they have NCO pilots and Officer pilots, so they have wings that differentiate between them.  In CAP, with very few exceptions, we don't have NCO pilots; so we really don't need two different styles of wings to differentiate officers from NCOs.

Quite the contrary, I'm not familiar of any branch with enlisted pilots who are currently serving. The last enlisted pilot in the USAF retired in 1957 (interestingly, he rose to the grade of Lt. Colonel during WWII, then reverted back to his pre-war grade of Master Sergeant at the end of the war). Incidentally, rated enlisted pilots wore the same pilot wings as their officer counterparts, not different ones.

(For more info, try http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=1427)

While we don't have many exceptions, the possibility of having an NCO pilot in CAP is much greater than of there being one on active duty. While there aren't many NCOs in CAP to begin with, we would allow one to be a CAP pilot; the military services require either a commission or a warrant.

Our pilot wings have been changed a bit as well. The "drooped wing" design was used until 1976-1977; we didn't have upswept wings, similar to the USAF wings, until then. As such, there's not a huge historical reason to not change. I'd be in favor of a change not because I was to be more like the Air Force, but because I'd like to be able to tell at a glance whether or not someone is a pilot or observer without having to get into their personal space to find the "O".

I went to the Naval Aviation Musuem in Florida and saw uniforms for enlisted pilots and blimp pilots.....that must have been fun

Although the days of the NCO or Sgt /Petty Officer pilots are long gone, lets not forget their is still one group of "non-commissioned" American military pilots......the US Army Warrant Officer pilots....just my $0.03

Army Warrant Officers get commissioned upon reaching the grade of CW2.

[riffraff]

Although the days of the NCO or Sgt /Petty Officer pilots are long gone, lets not forget their is still one group of "non-commissioned" American military pilots......the US Army Warrant Officer pilots....just my $0.03

US Army warrant officers are have been classed as officers since 1942:
In November 1942, the War Department defined the position of the Warrant Officer in the rank order as being above all enlisted ranks and immediately below all commissioned officers.

As already noted, WO's in grades CW2 and above are commissioned officers. Sidenote: Only the US Army uses the grade of WO1. USN/USMC WOs are all commissioned officers.

[Short Field]

What!  You guys don't think I can hand a lowly 1st Lt? 

It is really a Safety Issue.  I have seen instructors injured when the instructee zigs instead of zags and the instructor's hand hits the wall or ground.  You just can't be too careful anymore - the paperwork is a pain and it gets really embarrassing explaining how you broke your hand.   

[Flying Pig]

Why would we have CAP Astronaut wings anyway?  They would just wear their real astronaut wings.  Since you need to do a Form 5 to wear CAP Pilot wings, who would do the Astronaut Form 5?

[Hawk200]

Why would we have CAP Astronaut wings anyway?  They would just wear their real astronaut wings.  Since you need to do a Form 5 to wear CAP Pilot wings, who would do the Astronaut Form 5?

Some people that think that military awards don't belong on CAP uniforms, or that it doesn't mean anything unless there is a CAP specific award for it.

[lordmonar]

What!  You guys don't think I can hand a lowly 1st Lt? 

It is really a Safety Issue.  I have seen instructors injured when the instructee zigs instead of zags and the instructor's hand hits the wall or ground.  You just can't be too careful anymore - the paperwork is a pain and it gets really embarrassing explaining how you broke your hand.   

Okay....anything to avoid paperwork!

[BlueLakes1]

Why would we have CAP Astronaut wings anyway?  They would just wear their real astronaut wings.  Since you need to do a Form 5 to wear CAP Pilot wings, who would do the Astronaut Form 5?

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "real astronaut wings", but that the shooting star designator is added to whatever military aeronautical rating the astronaut holds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_Badge

[DNall]

Why would we have CAP Astronaut wings anyway?  They would just wear their real astronaut wings.  Since you need to do a Form 5 to wear CAP Pilot wings, who would do the Astronaut Form 5?

I don't believe that there is any such thing as "real astronaut wings", but that the shooting star designator is added to whatever military aeronautical rating the astronaut holds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut_Badge

Actually, it's not a designator added to their current wings. The astronaut pilot wings are kind of like that because you assume they were a pilot in the mil as well, but there are astronaut observer wings that go to mil mission specialists who may have held any number of dif air ratings (or none), but it's one kind of wings.

Far as the CAP version discussed in the previously mentioned thread. I don't have nay knowledge of a previous set of astronaut wings. Obviously mention of a Fm5 is completely stupid. I stated the point was a public relations/AE/recruiting campaign to award membership & such wings to active astronauts in hopes of drawing them more directly into the CAP AE program for now & after they are done with NASA. And possibly after the fact getting NASA to authorize such wings for wear (by non-mil astronauts) on NASA gear (as they do with mil wings) to help reinforce such an effort.

**********

CAP wings have changed significantly & several times over the history of the organization. The originals looked like a nazi badge.

The main problem I have with the current wings is the difficulty in distinguishing pilot from observer. I also have some issues in the scanner observer track as we move into this new era of high tech sensors.

The designs above were meant to address these two issues by creating attractive design(s), which coincide with a new rating system designed to address the future aircrew outlook. That's scanner becomes aircrew & includes most of what is currently thought of as observer, and those wings come off if you aren't current; Nav/Obs comes in to pick up the most technical aspects of observer & add the additional layer of on-scene mission commander & tech sensor operator. If I recall correctly, we had a designation system worked out so master level of each indicated AOBD. I believe we had something similar worked out on pilot wings, but I just don't recall the details.


The rest of this thread is fun to spectate though, so feel free to proceed.

[AlphaSigOU]

Civilian mission specialists usually wear a variation of the Naval Aviator Observer Badge on their flight suit name patch, except that the anchor is replaced with the astronaut shooting star.



If I remember correctly, there's no distinction between flown and unflown MS on the name patch - gold wings on a blue background.

Here's what the MS wings look like:

http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/000621.html

[DNall]

NASA has its own wings for civilians. The AF mission specialist wear officer aircrew w/ the shooting star, at least that's what I think it is. Not that it matters. Point being there's valid reasons to change the wings, but they aren't pressing concerns, and it isn't cause they look like enlisted wings.

[AlphaSigOU]

NASA has its own wings for civilians. The AF mission specialist wear officer aircrew w/ the shooting star, at least that's what I think it is. Not that it matters. Point being there's valid reasons to change the wings, but they aren't pressing concerns, and it isn't cause they look like enlisted wings.

AF officers who qualify as mission specialists wear navigator wings with the rating of 'Observer'. Once they've flown in space, they earn the 'astronaut observer' designation.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I like the idea of CAP astronaut wings, and I think it could lead to recruiting a whole class of very valuable folks that can be both training resources and spokesmen for CAP's aerospace education missions.

[Flying Pig]

By DNall
Obviously mention of a Fm5 is completely stupid.

OK, I guess by not putting the little smiley face after the comment threw everyone off.  I didn't really expect anyone to take that seriously.  Here are the wings you earn if you are also a military pilot.

[RiverAux]

Maybe the CAP folks sending balloons up into space can wear the astronaut wings? 

[Flying Pig]

Here is a photo of  Kalpana Chawla, who died on the Columbia.   She is wearing the civilian Astronaut Wings.

[DNall]

Maybe we can quit worrying about astronaut wings.

The concept presented covers a multi-faceted marketing program & an AE program. And it covers an update & reorganization of the aircrew training program to address new equipment and mission responsibilities being trained today. Either you agree with those concepts or you don't. The rest is just effective use of shiny crap to get productive things done.

[jb512]

By DNall
Obviously mention of a Fm5 is completely stupid.

OK, I guess by not putting the little smiley face after the comment threw everyone off.  I didn't really expect anyone to take that seriously.  Here are the wings you earn if you are also a military pilot.

I caught it...  Gotta be careful around here.

[DNall]

everybody caught it, it just wasn't amuzing in the first place.

[Flying Pig]

Ummm...yes it was.  Form 5 in the Space Shuttle....C'mon....Some of you need to get involved in a hobby.

[jb512]

Yeah, it actually was kinda funny.

[BlueLakes1]

Wait...the Space Shuttle takes off under its own power, and lands as an unpowered glider...do you need a Form 5, Form 5G, or both?

[DNall]

Wait...the Space Shuttle takes off under its own power, and lands as an unpowered glider...do you need a Form 5, Form 5G, or both?

That was a better effort.

[SJFedor]

Wait...the Space Shuttle takes off under its own power, and lands as an unpowered glider...do you need a Form 5, Form 5G, or both?

So does a Cessna if you pull that little red knob out and don't push it back in when things get quiet....

[JohnKachenmeister]

Wait...the Space Shuttle takes off under its own power, and lands as an unpowered glider...do you need a Form 5, Form 5G, or both?

5G.  A glider on tow and a "Self-launching" glider are still gliders.  The Solid Rocket Boosters and the on-board rockets are simply what they use to get the world's biggest glider up off the ground.

[RogueLeader]

^^^lmao

Thanks guys, you really made my day.  Thank you.