Are uniforms really controversial?

[RiverAux]

It is obvious that just about everyone on this board likes to talk about uniforms, whether it arguing about what the regulations allow, complaining about the uniforms we have to wear, people wearing them wrong, cost, etc. 

However, in my real world CAP life I don't recall uniforms ever even coming close to being a major topic that gets discussed while we're sitting around at base at lunchtime, before squadron meetings, etc. 

Every once in a while some senior might have something wrong and a quiet word is had with them and there are uniform classes every now and again, but that isn't what I'm talking about.  I'm also not talking about cadet uniform inspections.  This is primarily a senior topic. 

Do people in your unit sit around complaining about people in golf shirts, overweight people in BDUs, how silly the BBDUs look, etc?

My thesis is that 95% of CAP members learn what uniform to buy, buy it, wear it, and don't think about it and that people on CAP-Talk are the major exception to that rule. 

[Eclipse]

My thesis is that 95% of CAP members learn what uniform to buy, buy it, wear it, and don't think about it and that people on CAP-Talk are the major exception to that rule. 

[Stonewall]

It's the people like me, I'm guessing the few and far between, who are anal retentive about simple things like uniforms.  To me, wearing a uniform correctly is simple, but takes effort.  Some truly don't have the time to put forth the effort; some don't want to put forth the effort and some don't care about what it takes to wear it correctly.

Last night for instance, there was a guy with the wing patch on his SS blue shirt as well as a brown civilian jacket.  Just so happens a cadet was giving her speech to the squadron and talked about officers (senior members) set the example and leading by example, especially with uniforms.  Response to the wing patch issue:  "I like the wing patch, I'll just keep it on".

I mean, what do you do with this guy?  I'm shocked he's in blues when he's not even a CP guy.  Honestly, I don't even know him.  Do you kick him out?  Suspend him?  Is it worth it to fight it?

If anyone cares, my 3 issues with the wear of uniforms in CAP are this:

1.  Lack of care and maintenance
2.  An overall lack of military bearing when wearing the uniform
3.  Wearing things that aren't authorized and just plain gawdy or goofy

My issues with CAP uniforms in general are:

1.  Too many options
2.  Too much stuff to put on
3.  Too many changes too often

I truly can appreciate a CAP member, an older one in particular, having a lot more on his/her mind than spending a good amount of time getting a good looking set of BDUs up to par with 39-1.  Oh, the hand-sew job my wife did on the patches, insignia and badges is just fine, when there is a full inch of blue around the insignia and badges, and the stitches are so obvious a 2 year old could notice something wasn't right.  But hey, they're in uniform, right?  I mean, his wife spent 3 hours sewing everything on.  Can I really tell him to fix it or don't wear it?  

Some just haven't grasped the fact that uniforms are black and white (for the most part).  There is only one way to sew insignia/patches on.  There is only one measurement.  Civilian blue belts and buckle are not an option.  If you hair doesn't meet the regs, no, you can't wear your uniform.

Do we have the attitude of hey, he shows up, even though his uniform sucks, but at least he shows up?  What are the alternatives.

WIWACC, I'm not sure what I did right, but we NEVER had issues with seniors and their uniforms.  We made uniform wear an important part of the program and training was mandatory before wearing it.  We made sure they knew that standards were not optional.

Most people, myself included, ignore uniform issues overall, because I am not going to get the 30+ senior members in my squadron to care enough about them to do it right.  I'd rather focus my attention and efforts on cadets and ES.  It sucks, but I have to make a choice.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Stonewall!

Being a former cadink, I take pride in my uniform and do my best to wear it as the regs say - CORRECTLY!

As the resident 'uniform nazi' in the squadron (a position that generally defaults to the admin/personnel guy) I do my best to keep people informed on the latest changes (groan!) on uniforms and insignia, and occasionally whisper good counsel to senior members and cadets who are in need of correction. But I don't stand around the corner with a 2X4 at hand yelling at the top of my lungs: "HEY, LT... HOW ABOUT FIXING THAT GIG LINE?!?" Don't have a problem with most cadinks, they get it fixed and that's that. It's the senior members that I have more problems with getting uniforms straight.

[LtCol White]

I don't think uniforms are a controversy, I just think its one of those subjects that many people feel strongly about becuase it is what identifies us to the world. Everyone wants to look professional and there are just many opinions as to what they should be.

[CAP_truth]

I think that the issue of uniforms are used as a catch all for things that can be nit picked. Some people don't want to have uniforms because they don't want to wear them. Some people want to do away with rank because they don't have any. Some people complain about ribbon wear, different types of uniforms and even patches that are worn on uniforms. Uniforms have been around since the beginning of recorded history. We should be proud to wear our uniforms and for what it stands for. Wear it properly and with respect. My opinion is that the golf or polo shirts are not uniforms and should not be worn at missions or meeting.

[star1151]

I've never heard anyone even mention uniforms in real life.

[RiverAux]

So, we're getting a pretty convincing majority saying that uniforms are not an issue at all or only come up every now and again.

I think what intrigues me are the people that responded that they are a major issue and cause lots of problems within the unit.  I'd be interested in hearing some examples of that.

[Major Carrales]

Uniforms are rarely a "debating" and "energy expending" issue in the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron.  It usually goes like this...

"We have a goal of sending people to all the first Quarter SARexs"

Followed by,

"You need to be Level I and GES qualified.  Also, you need a uniform."

Then,

"What do I need to buy?"

They are then told which is the best for the occasion and time involved in getting it.  Then the meeting turns towards operations and cadets.  The above exchange is about 25 second long and occurs with new people.

I suspect lots is made here because CAP policy makers read this regularly and ordinary CAP Officers in the local units want to influence those persons thoughts.

[SARMedTech]

While we are on the topic, I would like to ask one thing. Through constant wear and trial and error, I have learned to blouse my boots pretty well. I wear the old OD green "braided" blousers with a little hook at each end. Put on your boots. Put the blousers just above the top of your boot over  your sock. Grab the bottom hem, roll the cuff of your pants underneath the cuff and under the boot blousers. Its not that hard but if its not done well by whatever method, the rest of your uniform can be squared away but will still look like garbage.

So my question: what method do you use to blouse your boots? I got a great suggestion recently from a friend who is a veteran both of CAP and military service. He told me that if you normally wear long trousers, get them regular. If you wear regulars, get them short. The less material you have to deal with the better. So lets hear how others do it.

[Eclipse]

For my units, there are a few uniform "gurus", and most of the members find it easier to contact them then look things up themselves, its the gurus, then, who are troubled with interpretations and nuance.

My guess is that this is typical of most units, and its the gurus who engage in most of the discussions.

[Stonewall]

The way I look at it is like in the military.  The uniform is a part of your skin, you just wear it.  But before you can wear it you are taught how to wear it and not to deviate from that.  Like I said in my first post above, the standards are not optional.  So for me, it is nothing, no effort at all, to prepare my uniform with a quickness, to standard and go to work, or in our case, go to a CAP activity or meeting.  I mean, it's second nature.  It is also second nature for me to size you up in a split second.  Everything from what you're wearing to if you're up to no good.  At CAP, I'd say I'm very good at catching things wrong with the uniform, especially when it's so blatant. 

Does it bother me?  Sure, a little.  I just wonder what is so darned difficult about putting a uniform together and wearing it properly.  I mean, we have written standards with pictures.  It ain't rocket science.

In the Air Force, people don't even think about wearing their uniforms.  BDUs for instance, they either wash and iron their uniform themselves, or the drop'em off at the cleaners.  No biggie.  As for the accouterments, they take'em to the military clothing store or tailor shop on base and have them sewn on by people who do nothing but sew on AF insignia.  If an Airman, NCO or even an Officer showed up with their insignia hand-sewn with 3/4" border around the insignia, someone would say something.  That person would probably be a bit aggravated, but they don't have a choice, they have to fix it.  In CAP, the outcome could go either way, but most likely the person would be like "my wife spent 4 hours sewing this stuff on, you tell her to fix it".

Seriously, do you think the Air Force spends time talking about uniforms, other than the ABUs in recent times?  No.  They learn how to do it right in BMT and Tech School and if they still don't have it right, an NCO at their unit will square them away lickity-split.  If grown adults could just follow the regs that are written in black and white, with pictures, there would be little discussion on the subject.

Additionally, if CAP would limit options, that would also decrease the chances of people screwing them up.  For example, you can't screw up sewing on a wing patch if there are no wing patches.   You can't have a frayed ES patch sewn with purple thread if an ES patch isn't an option to wear on the BDUs.  Can't look like a goofball in the saucer cap if we only allowed flight caps.  No French weenies if berets were completely banned from CAP.  If we could get rid of half the stuff we can wear as an option, that would cut down on the number of uniform screw ups people walk around with every day.

EDIT AFTER SOME MORE THOUGHT.

See, I think we can do our job, complete our missions successfully and safely, and look good doing it.  By looking good, I mean wearing our uniform(s) properly.  If you're overweight or fuzzy, wear the appropriate uniform, but make sure it's clean and in good order.

I've been in CAP for 20 years, uniforms have never slowed me down in accomplishing my mission.  So for those who say let's stop worrying about uniforms and do our jobs, I say "HOOAH".  Wear your uniform correctly and do your job, it's that easy.   If you can't wear your uniform properly and do your job, then hopefully you're not in a critical job where peoples' lives are at risk.

[CAPOfficer]

What I hear most is the problem with acquiring CAP specific uniform items from vendors and not so much the general problem with uniforms.

[SJFedor]

But I don't stand around the corner with a 2X4 at hand yelling at the top of my lungs: "HEY, LT... HOW ABOUT FIXING THAT GIG LINE?!?"

I'm so doing that. 

"Did you have a good nap?"
"Excuse me sir?"
"I said, did you have a good nap?"
"I didn't take one today"
"Coulda fooled me, your uniform looks like you slept in it."


Shh, I'm still heated about not flying today. IFR = no biggie, IFR w/ cadet o-flights = no flying for me.

[Gunner C]

. . . My opinion is that the golf or polo shirts are not uniforms and should not be worn at missions or meeting.

:clap:

[Duke Dillio]

I'm with Stonewall.  Putting a uniform on correctly is not all that difficult.  Taking it to a tailor shop to get the patches put on is really a no brainer.  The only problem with this is that where I live there is no military base around.  It takes a little while to explain to the tailor exactly how it should look because most of the tailors here are ESL types.

Just a funny story, when I went through SLS, we had a uniform class in which one of the senior members put on a uniform that was all messed up on purpose.  He had put his wing patch on the right sleeve.  What he was attempting to do was show us how to look for discrepancies.  The only problem was that he had other "issues" that he didn't know about.  His ribbons were on upside down, his shoes weren't polished, his gig line was way off, and he was wearing a BDU belt buckle with a dress uniform.  He started with the "Anyone tell me what's wrong with my uniform" and someone raised their hand and said "Your wing patch is on the wrong side."  He was then going to go on when another hand went up and said "Your ribbons are on upside down."  After the class, he came up to me and asked me about the ribbons and explained that it was easy to see because his military awards were below his CAP ones.  Shouldn't you know what you are talking about before you teach a class?

On the blousing thing, I take the green thingies with the hooks, cut the stitch for the BDU pant strings, attach the hook to the end and pull it through the cuff.  I then clamp the hooks together so they can't come apart.  Viola, never have to mess with that stuff ever again.  Just pull your pants on and pull the legs down to get the blouse.

[JCW0312]

On the blousing thing, I take the green thingies with the hooks, cut the stitch for the BDU pant strings, attach the hook to the end and pull it through the cuff.  I then clamp the hooks together so they can't come apart.  Viola, never have to mess with that stuff ever again.  Just pull your pants on and pull the legs down to get the blouse.

Good idea I never really thought of. I have always removed the tie straps that come on the bdu's, but it never occured to me to put the blousing bands in that spot.

[SARMedTech]

On the blousing thing, I take the green thingies with the hooks, cut the stitch for the BDU pant strings, attach the hook to the end and pull it through the cuff.  I then clamp the hooks together so they can't come apart.  Viola, never have to mess with that stuff ever again.  Just pull your pants on and pull the legs down to get the blouse.

Good idea I never really thought of. I have always removed the tie straps that come on the bdu's, but it never occured to me to put the blousing bands in that spot.

I have also taken the ties out of my BDU cuffs, however I have never though either about putting the blousing straps in the channel left by the string. But when they are permanently in there, dont you end up with alot of extra material that you cant adjust. The reason that I put them around my socks just above the boot tops is so that I can tinker with the blouser to get it just the way I want it

[Duke Dillio]

I have also taken the ties out of my BDU cuffs, however I have never though either about putting the blousing straps in the channel left by the string. But when they are permanently in there, dont you end up with alot of extra material that you cant adjust. The reason that I put them around my socks just above the boot tops is so that I can tinker with the blouser to get it just the way I want it

I don't usually end up with a lot of extra material bloused over.  The biggest problem that I have is with the blousers unhooking and then having to restring them.  This can be done with a crochet needle but it does take a little time.  You can also move them higher up your leg if you think there is too much material hanging around.  Another thing that I have seen done but am not a real fan of is folding the bottom of your pants up inside the leg and ironing a crease on.  It's great when it is hot as it allows air to circulate up however if you get caught by a uniform Nazi, you might have a hard time explaining that one.

[Dragoon]

A lot CAP members who aren't cadets believe "It doesn't matter what I look like, as long as I can get the job done."  So to those folks, no it's not a contraversial item.  They wear pretty much what I want.

The debate is over whether that's a valid statement.  I'd argue that there are benefits to a uniform appearance.

1.  Allows for better PR.
2.  Enhances cooperation from other organizations because you make a good first impression.
3.  Enhances esprit de corps, resulting in folks working harder for the team.
4.  Helps create a corporate culture focused on following the rules, rather than doing whatever you feel like.

CAP isn't getting many of these benefits because our uniform focus is on the individual, rather than the team.  We want to make everyone happy, so we give 'em a million choices.  But that just makes it more confusing, and eliminates the benefits of looking like a team.