Another topic on saluting...OH NO!

[Nomex Maximus]

But should CAP members salute each other while in the O-club while attending a region ES conference while wearing camo underwear?

[MIKE]

Is there grade insignia on the front and butt?

[Brad]

Is there grade insignia on the front and butt?

Haha, funny.

Just to be typical me: They're inside anyway, N/M, unless they're standing outside looking like complete idiots...which will more than likely keep them from even getting past the front door of said O-Club.

And just to add my reply back to Eclipse's criteria, the part about no hats bothers me. Branch-wide it's understood to be if you're uncovered you don't salute unless you're formally reporting to a senior officer. What do I mean by a formal report? Well let's say I'm a Captain, and a 2nd Lt has just been stationed on base. On his orders he was instructed to report to me. He'd enter the office and salute, saying, "Sir, 2nd Lt. Smith reports as ordered." He's uncovered, but he still salutes. Then I would simply nod and ask him to stand at-ease; or have a seat if I was feeling nice, haha.

[Slim]

This has got to be one of the best ideas I've heard, and it's stuff I've been saying for years around here.  Jimmy, thanks for coming up with what could be a lucid, well-defined set of directions for members.

I agree wholeheartedly with the concept you introduced; if you see the grade insignia, you salute it.  Even the blazer combo.

I agree with the concept, and I see where a lot of people are getting wrapped up with the uniforms that lack mandatory headgear.  That's a fairly easy fix; as some have mentioned, make hats mandatory with BBDUs and BUUs.  Blue BDU cap, unit cap, or even the flight cap (with the blue utility uniform only).  Not sure what the cure could be for white/greys anyway, other than eliminate that combo (along with the grooming restrictions tied to corporate service dress so that anyone can wear it).  Golf shirts would be another story, but in keeping with your concept, since no grade is displayed a salute should not be expected.

One suggestion I'd offer is to reword the definition of uniform as it pertains to this pamphlet.  Instead of using the words "Military-style" and "CAP distinctive" uniforms, just change it to read "Any approved CAP uniform combination where grade insignia is displayed".  That would cover both sides of the street, and maybe make it more clear to the membership.  Just a thought.

As I've said several times, salutes aren't about the clothes; they're about the grade a person holds, along with the traditions behind them.  Since members of the RealMilitary© aren't required to salute members of CAP, this is something that's strictly enforced within the culture of our organization.  Since we are an organization of many different people (in terms of background, ethnicity, build, etc.), why can't we recognize all of our members for the work and worth they bring with them?  Not just those who fit into a certain set of criteria based solely on the clothes they're wearing.

This proposal would also move us all that much closer to being one organization, albiet with a potpourri of uniforms. 

[GLROH277]

In regards about the Blazer combination:

The blazer uniform combination originated in the 1970s as an outgrowth of the uniform worn by CAP cadets and senior member escorts participating in the International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE). Many foreign countries prohibit the wear of military uniforms from countries other than their own, except for military attachés. At first, the blazer uniform was worn with CAP-distinctive buttons from the service dress uniform and the bullion CAP crest (some versions were also offered in cloth). When the blazer nametag was introduced, it was placed above the blazer pocket; by removing the blazer nametag and adding a single CAP (not military) miniature medal it became a CAP-distinctive equivalent to mess dress.

At first, the blazer uniform was worn with a white shirt and gray trousers, with the AF-blue tie. Later, a CAP distinctive blue or maroon tie with the CAP seal was added, and finally a 'regimental' blue and red striped tie."

from CAPR 39-1:

4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired. All senior members, including those who do not meet the standards of wear for an Air Force style uniform for reasons of grooming or weight standards, may wear any of the CAP distinctive uniform combinations described in this chapter. Uniforms must be clean, neat and correct in design and specification, fitted properly, pressed, and in good condition (that is not frayed, worn out, torn, faded,patched, and so forth). Uniform items are to be kept zipped, snapped, or buttoned. Shoes are to be shined
and in good repair. Metallic insignia, badges and other devices, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition. Appropriate civilian outerwear is authorized with these combinations including the light blue windbreaker with the CAP seal embroidered on the right breast and the dark blue flight jacket.

c. Service Uniform: The AF-style blue uniforms worn for normal duty. It excludes BDU clothing, mess dress uniforms, flight suits, CAP distinctive uniforms, sports clothing, and recreational clothing.

d. CAP Distinctive: The uniform combinations (for example, blazer and slacks/skirt, field or utility uniform, blue flight suit) or badges, devices, etc., which are distinctive to CAP

It is considered a alternative uniform for those who do not fit the requirement for the blues. So, it is a "official" uniform.

Funny that I see individuals who really do not fit the requirements for the blues wearing them. Is that right?

Why is everyone hung up on the definition of a uniform?

Show some respect and salute...

[Short Field]

Show some respect and salute...

Really .... and it is not a 2B offense to make a mistake and actually initiate a salute to someone "GASP" who is "JUNIOR" to you.........  When you run out of salutes, you can always get refills for free.

[JoeTomasone]

Sorry to chime in here late and all, but I just got here.

A salute is a military greeting.  As such, it is never inappropriate to salute.

As far as I am concerned, if I see superior grade, I salute.

If I recognize someone who is of superior grade but not in uniform, I render all courtesies but the salute, which might look awkward to onlookers.


MY pet peeve, having come up as a Cadet in the era of CAPF 341 (remember those?) is the slackness of customs and courtesies I see at all levels since I rejoined - both amongst Cadets and Senior Members alike.

Of course, I haven't made a terrible stink about it as I don't want to be the anal Lieutenant, but it grates on me to see it, knowing how hard I studied it all and practiced it 100% of the time as a cadet.     If I failed to salute a Cadet or Senior Officer, or (gasp) dared to call them merely by their last name, I could expect to have a CAPF 341 pulled; enough of which would delay/deny a promotion - and at the very least would earn me a reprimand by my C/CC or Squadron/CC.    Similar for uniform infractions - and we were inspected VERY closely each week.   Hair touching the ears?   CAPF341, please.    Gig line off?   You got one chance to fix it, and it better not be off next week...   Chevrons off by 1/8 inch?  The same..   Don't make that mistake twice.
Oh - and if you showed up at an activity - say a SAREX - and didn't have the proper uniform?  You got sent HOME.   They called your parents and told them to come pick you up.   You learned not to do it twice.

Today, however, in my corner of the world, it seems like the customs and courtesies have largely been ignored - and I'm not sure if it's due to CPPT (can't haze the cadets by pointing out their mistakes?), or just that no one in authority cares.     You even get Senior Members who address cadets by their last name alone - which is prohibited by regulations.

I just hope this is a local and not widespread issue.   Makes me sad to see the pride in the uniform and the military heritage tossed to the wayside.   In my few years back, I've encountered only ONE cadet who rendered the proper customs and courtesies 100% of the time whenever required - and he was not yet an officer.

[DC]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

[BillB]

I was an Encampment Commander during the time frame you mention. I also worked with cadets at the Squadron, Group and Wing level. The time period you are talking about was when Senior members were more involved in the day-to-day cadet program. Prior to mentoring by cadet or senior staff. The main difference between then and now, is cadet officers/staff are less military due to two reasons. First, CPPT, cadet officers are less trained in (on average) and don't have the ability to correct uniform or military customs and courtesies that prior periods. Second is the removal of senior input in correcting cadet staff or providing leadershipinput into the cadet program.
Some will say the period you talk about produced "Rambo" type cadets. That's not true in that surveys conducted over the past 20 years have shown cadets want more of a disciplined  program. (at least three surveys I'm aware of) Comparing the encampments of the past and present day, you'll find that there is less emphasis on cadet or senior staff correcting items like the gig line, hair on collar, making beds correctly. etc.
The form 341 was a good yardstick on how cadets were progressing and could be used by promotion boards. Now I'd say that most Squadron CC's automatically promote a cadet after completing an achievement. CAPR 52-16 does not compare with the previous 50-16 in providing guidance to a DCP or CC at the Squadron level. The current Cadet Program is vastly different than the Cadet Program you grew up in.

[SamFranklin]

Now I'd say that most Squadron CC's automatically promote a cadet after completing an achievement. CAPR 52-16 does not compare with the previous 50-16 in providing guidance to a DCP or CC at the Squadron level.

Can you cite something from any version of 50-16 showing us how it provides more guidance to squadron commanders than the current version of 52-16? I think 52-16 goes into much more depth as to the goals of the program and how it ought to be conducted. For example, in section 2-4 it goes out of its way in explaining when, how, and why cadets should be retained in grade.  Performance standards in the leadership lab were sorely lacking until 52-16 introduced the big chart in Figure 2-2.  And national has given us a lot more resources than we've ever had before (just look at the 0-2 and ask yourself how many 52-series publications were available in say 1980).

I think you're over-generalizing about the Good Ole Days, which in retrospect, weren't that good.

-- 1980s cadet

[brasda91]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

How many times do we have to go over this:

Per CAPP 151... Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel.

[JoeTomasone]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

CAPP 151: Standards, Customs, and Courtesies

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

And also this KB article

During the conversation following, cadets should be addressed as "Cadet Smith" or "Cadet Jones" by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. (Note: Following military tradition, it is considered acceptable for the senior person to also use the first name of the subordinate, but not for the subordinate to use the first name of the senior.) Within the cadet structure, cadets should address other cadets by the appropriate title of address such as "Major Smith" or "Sergeant Jones."

But then, here's the telling part:

Since CAP is a volunteer and not a military service, members are often more informal especially during off duty times.

<bangs head>

[BuckeyeDEJ]

That still doesn't quite answer the question as to whether you can or cannot address a subordinate member by his last name. What the answers outline is what courtesy title to use when a courtesy title is used.

Members have been addressed with their last name, with or without courtesy titles (the junior never forgets the title, while the senior may drop it) for ages. This man's Civil Air Patrol, through however many wings I've been in over almost a quarter century, has always been that way.

If I call a cadet "Cadet Smith" and "Smith" interchangeably, there is no issue. The latter is more informal but operationally effective. Both are acceptable.

[JoeTomasone]

"NOTE: Cadets are addressed as `Cadet`"


Where's the ambiguity?


I agree with you, incidentally, in certain circumstances - such as subsequent personal addressing of the same cadet in a given conversation.     

[JohnKachenmeister]

This whole discussion is stupid.

Officers are saluted.  Junior initiates, and senior returns.

It doesn't make ANY difference what you are wearing.  You are a member of the AF Aux, and as such you are privileged to extend and receive the salute as a greeting.

I have been saluted by Army troops in civilian clothing.  I return the salute without fail.  Always.  Even if I'm in shorts and a ridiculously-loud colorful Hawaiian shirt, I come to attention and return the salute.

If you want to be stupid and act like some kind of barracks lawyer, go join the Boy Scouts.  They don't salute and you will therefore have much less stress in your life.  Plus you will not be in the position of annoying me, which is considered by most mental-health professionals to be a very dangerous activity since I returned from Vietnam.

[mikeylikey]

"NOTE: Cadets are addressed as `Cadet`"

Where's the ambiguity?   

Wow......you are smack on! 

Sidenote......when annoyed by ROTC cadets at work some days, I resort to calling them Private, almost instinctively.  Weird>!

[SarDragon]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the appropriate term.

I learned a long time ago that it was improper to address folks by just their last names. It was certainly policy in the Air Force and the Navy WIWOAD. The other services were probably similar.

[ZigZag911]

Old Army saying:

"If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!"

[SarDragon]

Old Army saying:

"If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!"

Continuing with the Navy version - "And if you can't paint it, polish it!"

[Hawk200]

I'd have to agree with saluting any uniform that has grade insignia. I'll know when they outrank me.

When it comes to a golf shirt, I don't think salutes should be required. If I'm at some activity around members I don't personally know, I don't know if any of those people are higher ranking or not.

Then again, most of the people wearing golf shirts usually don't care about salutes.