Another topic on saluting...OH NO!

[jimmydeanno]

So, imagine you are writing a new CAPP 151    Currently there is confusion on the definition of a "military style" uniform.

How would you describe a military style uniform?  I've had a few ideas but I think this one makes the most sense:

"A military style uniform is considered any uniform in which grade insignia is displayed."

So my question to you guys would be...

Would you agree with this statement.  This would include the version of the blazer with the grade insignia on the nametag.  I think it would be appropriate because if you are going to display what grade you are you are setting yourself up to play the saluting game.

I know the blazer combo doesn't look "military style" but I think it is a good blanket clause that would help include any future uniform combinations.

Comments? Ideas? Objections?

[Dragoon]

Here's two ideas:

1.  in 39-1, make it clear which uniforms are "military style' and which aren't.  That way, every time we have a new uniform, the change to 39-1 will upate the list.

or

2.  Failing that, I'd define "military style" as any USAF uniform worn by CAP, plus any CAP Corporate uniform that displays grade and has mandatory headgear.

This would eliminate the blazer, golf shirt and white and grays.  It would also currently eliminate CAP field and service, but truthfully, those uniforms SHOULD have mandatory headgear.

[MIKE]

Would you agree with this statement.  This would include the version of the blazer with the grade insignia on the nametag.  I think it would be appropriate because if you are going to display what grade you are you are setting yourself up to play the saluting game.

I wouldn't... It may not be the politically correct or make everybody feel good about themselves answer, but I believe that military style should mean Air Force style.

[Fifinella]

Re including blazer with nametag: IMO that's not practical.  At a saluting distance, the insignia is probably not large enough to be easily recognizable, thereby making it very difficult to know whom to salute.  (Does that person outrank me or not?)  Instead of saluting, we'd all be squinting at each other, trying to make out the rank. 

[jimmydeanno]

Re including blazer with nametag: IMO that's not practical.  At a saluting distance, the insignia is probably not large enough to be easily recognizable, thereby making it very difficult to know whom to salute.  (Does that person outrank me or not?)  Instead of saluting, we'd all be squinting at each other, trying to make out the rank. 

But there isn't a prescribed "saluting distance."  It is upon recognition, so if you don't recognize the insignia until you are 4 feet away, so be it.  The same argument could be made for the glare on the plastic cased insignia, but that's not really what I'm going for.  I'm talking about the appropriateness of it.  Is it appropriate for someone wearing grade insignia to salute? 

My point being that if someone is wearing a uniform in which they are displaying their grade insignia, the intent is to recognize that persons grade.  As such, someone would salute that person.  Wouldn't it be appropriate for that person to salute back, even if they don't have a hat on or it is "civilian looking?"  Of course with the [new] pamphlet not being regulatory it wouldn't say.

"Members will salute while wearing military style uniforms."

but rather...

"It is appropriate to salute when wearing any uniform that displays grade insignia."

EDIT:
Let me throw in the "draft paragraph" talking about C&C:

...For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations that display grade insignia).  Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

[capchiro]

I believe that a junior officer may salute a senior officer, even if the senior officer is out of uniform, if the junior officer recognizes him as such.  If so, isn't it proper for the senior officer to return the salute?  If not shouldn't the senior officer at least respond with a greeting?  Such as good afternoon Sergeant??  Or should he return the salute??

[jimmydeanno]

Yes, you are correct, but the senior officer out of uniform would acknowledge the salute with a verbal greeting.

However, the senior officer in the AF would either be wearing a military uniform of civilian clothes.  Not civilian clothes with military insignia on it...hence the confusion that we/I'm trying to clear up.  So our "unique" situation in CAP, what do we want as the "standard?"

[Eclipse]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is (and butter bars are instructed they might just as well salute everyone the first year or so).

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

[Dragoon]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is (and butter bars are instructed they might just as well salute everyone the first year or so).

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

The reason I brought up the hat thing is that, with the one exception formal reporting, you don't salute without a hat on.

The reason for this is simple - all military uniforms have hats.  Hats are required outside.  Hence all saluting occurs with hats on.

Normally, designated "no salute" zones are also "no hat zones"

So....culturally there's a bit of a link between salutes and headgear.   If your hat is off, odds are no salute is required.

Now, enter CAP with "uniforms" that don't have hats.  That's where things get a bit iffy. 

As an aside, I think saluting in a blazer looks silly.

Personally, I say we take a page from CGAUX and eliminate saluting between senior members.  Since our grade does not actually denote a superior/subordinate relationship, there's really no reason to use a custom that is based on such a relationship.

[jimmydeanno]

I can understand the need or desire to set up a matrix for people to follow regarding saluting, but is that really what the intent of the C&C pamphlet should be?

Instead of saying, "In situation X, person Y salutes person Z" what if a different approach were taken.  What if it were designed for a new member to pick up and actually want to skim through and with just a skimming, they could come out with a general knowledge of the intent and execution of CAP C&C?

The current 151 reads like a regulation is too in-depth and is confusing.  Because of this, it fails to indoctrinate our new members into the "odd" customs and courtesies that we perform. 

So instead we...

1: Motivate cadets and senior mmembers to display a spirit of professionalism that is rooted in respect and guides their interactions with one another.

2: Provide easy to understand, authoritative guidance on how to render basic AF C&C.

Geared to...

1: New senior members who have limited military background, especially those who want to lead cadets.
2: Experienced CAP members looking for authoritative guidance on C&C related topics.
3: Cadets (it is assumed that cadets will consult the cadet textbooks first).

So we focus on the fundamentals and the most common scenarios in CAP.  I think people would be more apt to read the short guide instead of a manual.  For those who enjoy reading regulations, they can purchase the Air Force Officer's Guide.

So we end up with something like this:

INTRODUCTION

All military customs and courtesies are rooted in basic politeness and respect. To the newcomer, they seem strange and confusing at first. People are often embarrassed the first time they try to salute. But with a just a little bit of study, practice, and mentoring comes understanding and confidence.

Cadets will be held to a high standard in how well they observe Air Force-style customs and courtesies. By nature of the Cadet Program's training goals, Air Force traditions are a large part of cadet life.  For senior members, the rendering of customs and courtesies is optional, but is expected when wearing a military-style uniform (all uniform combinations except the polo shirt and blazer).  Regardless, CAP encourages all members to take part in something larger than themselves by participating in these rich traditions.

What follows is a brief tutorial in how to render Air Force-style customs and courtesies properly and proudly. This guide focuses on the fundamentals. For more information on the finer points of this subject, see Air Force Manual 36-2203, Drill and Ceremonies. 

RANK AND SPECIAL SITUATIONS IN CAP

In the military tradition, unit commanders will usually be the highest ranking individuals in a unit. In CAP, that is quite often not the case, and it can make for some confusing scenarios when it comes to custom and courtesies.

For example, in CAP, a captain may command a squadron that includes majors and colonels as its members. An aircraft may be commanded by a captain, and crewed by two majors. Or perhaps a cadet NCO is leading a drill team that includes her cadet commander, a cadet major. Situations like these are common in CAP.

Still, the lower ranking officer should initiate the salute. And looking at the matter from the other side, the higher ranking officer should respect the junior officer's position.

As discussed in Part 1 of this guide, customs and courtesies are not marks of personal superiority or inferiority. Rather, they are symbols of our respect for one another. Customs and courtesies should be extended freely and cheerfully, regardless of how unusual a situation may seem.


FOOTNOTE
Connoisseurs of the finer points of military customs and courtesies will notice that this guide takes some modest liberties in explaining what can be a very technical subject.
This guide values simplicity. It aims merely to introduce CAP members to basic military customs and courtesies. Therefore, the guide sacrifices hyper-accuracy to focus on the fundamentals.

THE SALUTE

BASIC RULE
When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves. Senior members salute military officers and other CAP officers higher in rank than themselves.

FINER POINTS

Salutes are normally exchanged only outdoors. Indoors, salute officers only when formally reporting (ie: when called forward to receive an award).

The junior person initiates the salute a fair distance from the senior person such that the senior has time to return the salute.

Offer a greeting such as, "Good morning, ma'am," when exchanging salutes.

When in formation, do not salute unless commanded to present arms. The commander salutes for the unit if an officer approaches.

On some installations, such as Maxwell AFB, home of CAP National Headquarters, it is common to see military officers from friendly nations. It is customary for CAP members to salute these international officers as a sign of goodwill.

When in uniform, salute officers upon recognition, regardless of what the officer is wearing. For example, a uniformed cadet salutes their squadron commander even if that commander is in civilian attire. In such instances, the commander would verbally acknowledge the salute but not return it.

When in doubt, salute. Anyone may render a salute at any time if they believe one is warranted.

[Brad]

Ok here's my take, and it'll probably go along with what everybody else has said to an extent.

A.)  Military-style uniform = Air Force-style uniform and TPU with coat. The TPU without coat is called an aviator shirt of all things. For me, the first thing that pops into my head is an airline pilot...and when's the last time you saw them exchanging salutes? Also the blue uniforms count as military uniforms, if nothing else then for the headgear.

B.) I've read this plenty of times actually in Officer Guides and seen it done, but if you are in uniform and recognize a senior officer in civilian clothes....salute. YOU are in uniform, so YOU salute. The senior will acknowledge the salute as appropriate.


Personally I don't see what the confusion is. The pamphlets and regulations mention that when in a military-style uniform you salute all seniors either active duty or CAP, the POTUS, and all Congressional Medal of Honor winners by tradition. Where's the confusion?

[jimmydeanno]

It is about applying one general "theme" to one action.  What makes a "military style uniform" military style?  Is it the ribbons? grade insignia? the way it's cut?  Is Military Style only combinations that are worn by members of the military (AF Style).  Does wearing a hat with it make it any more military than another uniform? 

Look at this:

BLUES:                      WHITE/GRAYS:                     TPU                          BLAZER (UPGRADE TO WHITE/GRAYS)

RIBBONS                    RIBBONS                             RIBBONS                   ONE MINI-MEDAL
GRADE INSIGNIA          GRADE INSIGNIA                  GRADE INSIGNIA         GRADE INSIGNIA
NAME TAG                  NAME TAG                          NAME TAG                 NAME TAG

So besides the grooming/weight standards, those uniforms are "functionally equivelent."

So the intent was to have a uniform that members could particpate in CAP to extent that their "Blues wearing" counterparts could. 

Re: Brad

So using that logic, a new member should salute in the TPU service coat, but not when wearing any other combination of the TPU?  That's not confusing to new members...

The intent is to avoid having to constantly decide if it is customary or appropriate to salute in particular uniforms.  I know that "when in doubt salute," but when explaining CAP C&C why not keep it simple?

Regardless, the AF style uniforms should follow AF protocol just out of expectation with interaction of military members.  On the CAP distinctive uniforms, we have free reign.  Is anyone really going to get bent out of shape if someone in the Blazer combo salutes when reporting, or if they salute when a cadet salutes them?  IMO, new members feel awkward enough participating in C&C if they have no experience with the military, so why create more awkwardness and confusion?

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk or knock down others ideas, just trying to get a better perspective on peoples real thoughts.

Aren't we all members of "The Official Auxiliary of the United States Air Force?"  or are some of us only part members because we wear a different uniform from the guy next to us?  Why aren't the "rules" universal?

So far we've got:

Military Style =
1) Any uniform with grade insignia
2) Any uniform combo with a hat
3) Only AF style combos
4) AF Style & only TPU w/ service coat
5) Removing ambiguity by defining every possible situation on how/when to salute
6) Uniforms with grade insignia big enough to see

[ZigZag911]

A salute is a greeting.

Juniors should salute seniors on recognition in appropriate circumstances.

It's not about having to salute, but rather sharing the privilege!

Let's quit dividing CAP members by what uniform they wear....military courtesy and ordinary daily civility is for everyone!

[RiverAux]

If I were to be in charge of clarifying things, I would require salutes for all uniforms with rank insignia except for the blazer (the tiny little insignia emblem on the name badge is a little too inconspicuous and everything else about the "uniform" is civilian).   

[SarDragon]

No hat - no salute required, unless specified otherwise (e.g. reporting indoors).

No rank - no salute required.

Specific guidance not to salute - no salute necessary.

How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

[RiverAux]

Yes, but the real military doesn't have a uniform with insignia on it where they don't wear a hat.  We have to make some adjustments (personally, I would require the hat and solve the problem that way). 

[brasda91]

Personally, I say we take a page from CGAUX and eliminate saluting between senior members.  Since our grade does not actually denote a superior/subordinate relationship, there's really no reason to use a custom that is based on such a relationship.

I beg to differ.  Our grade is based on the customs of the military, which denote superior/subordinate relationships.

[brasda91]

I would remove any ambiguity regarding saluting and require a salute:

1) Cadet initiates any time a cadet encounters a senior member.

2) Subordinate members initiate when encountering a commander at their unit, group, or wing level.
No excuses you don't know who they are - find out.

3) Lower-grade officer salutes when member is in a CAP uniform and can discern from the uniform, >ANY< uniform, what the grade is.

4) No saluting on a flight line or other designated "no salute" zones as indicated for safety.

5) Whether or not you have a hat on is irrelevant to the issue.

6) No >required< salutes in civilian dress.

This ends the ambiguity and forces everyone to actually think about where they are, who they are, and who they are with, and as clear as this is written leaves no room for loopholes.

Exactly. 

[brasda91]

No rank - no salute required.


How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

Really??  So the privates in basic training don't have to salute the officers??

They did when I was a private...

[SJFedor]

No rank - no salute required.


How much more simple can it get? That's pretty much how TheRealMilitary™ does things.

Really??  So the privates in basic training don't have to salute the officers??

They did when I was a private...

I think what he means is that if there's no grade showing, you not be required to render a salute. Not if you have no rank, you don't salute anyone.

Besides, Private is a rank. Even those E-1s w/ no grade insignia.  But you knew that already.

[Nomex Maximus]

But should CAP members salute each other while in the O-club while attending a region ES conference while wearing camo underwear?

[MIKE]

Is there grade insignia on the front and butt?

[Brad]

Is there grade insignia on the front and butt?

Haha, funny.

Just to be typical me: They're inside anyway, N/M, unless they're standing outside looking like complete idiots...which will more than likely keep them from even getting past the front door of said O-Club.

And just to add my reply back to Eclipse's criteria, the part about no hats bothers me. Branch-wide it's understood to be if you're uncovered you don't salute unless you're formally reporting to a senior officer. What do I mean by a formal report? Well let's say I'm a Captain, and a 2nd Lt has just been stationed on base. On his orders he was instructed to report to me. He'd enter the office and salute, saying, "Sir, 2nd Lt. Smith reports as ordered." He's uncovered, but he still salutes. Then I would simply nod and ask him to stand at-ease; or have a seat if I was feeling nice, haha.

[Slim]

This has got to be one of the best ideas I've heard, and it's stuff I've been saying for years around here.  Jimmy, thanks for coming up with what could be a lucid, well-defined set of directions for members.

I agree wholeheartedly with the concept you introduced; if you see the grade insignia, you salute it.  Even the blazer combo.

I agree with the concept, and I see where a lot of people are getting wrapped up with the uniforms that lack mandatory headgear.  That's a fairly easy fix; as some have mentioned, make hats mandatory with BBDUs and BUUs.  Blue BDU cap, unit cap, or even the flight cap (with the blue utility uniform only).  Not sure what the cure could be for white/greys anyway, other than eliminate that combo (along with the grooming restrictions tied to corporate service dress so that anyone can wear it).  Golf shirts would be another story, but in keeping with your concept, since no grade is displayed a salute should not be expected.

One suggestion I'd offer is to reword the definition of uniform as it pertains to this pamphlet.  Instead of using the words "Military-style" and "CAP distinctive" uniforms, just change it to read "Any approved CAP uniform combination where grade insignia is displayed".  That would cover both sides of the street, and maybe make it more clear to the membership.  Just a thought.

As I've said several times, salutes aren't about the clothes; they're about the grade a person holds, along with the traditions behind them.  Since members of the RealMilitary© aren't required to salute members of CAP, this is something that's strictly enforced within the culture of our organization.  Since we are an organization of many different people (in terms of background, ethnicity, build, etc.), why can't we recognize all of our members for the work and worth they bring with them?  Not just those who fit into a certain set of criteria based solely on the clothes they're wearing.

This proposal would also move us all that much closer to being one organization, albiet with a potpourri of uniforms. 

[GLROH277]

In regards about the Blazer combination:

The blazer uniform combination originated in the 1970s as an outgrowth of the uniform worn by CAP cadets and senior member escorts participating in the International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE). Many foreign countries prohibit the wear of military uniforms from countries other than their own, except for military attachés. At first, the blazer uniform was worn with CAP-distinctive buttons from the service dress uniform and the bullion CAP crest (some versions were also offered in cloth). When the blazer nametag was introduced, it was placed above the blazer pocket; by removing the blazer nametag and adding a single CAP (not military) miniature medal it became a CAP-distinctive equivalent to mess dress.

At first, the blazer uniform was worn with a white shirt and gray trousers, with the AF-blue tie. Later, a CAP distinctive blue or maroon tie with the CAP seal was added, and finally a 'regimental' blue and red striped tie."

from CAPR 39-1:

4-1. General. Cadet members are authorized to wear the CAP utility uniform, field uniform, and blazer combinations as desired. All senior members, including those who do not meet the standards of wear for an Air Force style uniform for reasons of grooming or weight standards, may wear any of the CAP distinctive uniform combinations described in this chapter. Uniforms must be clean, neat and correct in design and specification, fitted properly, pressed, and in good condition (that is not frayed, worn out, torn, faded,patched, and so forth). Uniform items are to be kept zipped, snapped, or buttoned. Shoes are to be shined
and in good repair. Metallic insignia, badges and other devices, must also be maintained in the proper luster and condition. Appropriate civilian outerwear is authorized with these combinations including the light blue windbreaker with the CAP seal embroidered on the right breast and the dark blue flight jacket.

c. Service Uniform: The AF-style blue uniforms worn for normal duty. It excludes BDU clothing, mess dress uniforms, flight suits, CAP distinctive uniforms, sports clothing, and recreational clothing.

d. CAP Distinctive: The uniform combinations (for example, blazer and slacks/skirt, field or utility uniform, blue flight suit) or badges, devices, etc., which are distinctive to CAP

It is considered a alternative uniform for those who do not fit the requirement for the blues. So, it is a "official" uniform.

Funny that I see individuals who really do not fit the requirements for the blues wearing them. Is that right?

Why is everyone hung up on the definition of a uniform?

Show some respect and salute...

[Short Field]

Show some respect and salute...

Really .... and it is not a 2B offense to make a mistake and actually initiate a salute to someone "GASP" who is "JUNIOR" to you.........  When you run out of salutes, you can always get refills for free.

[JoeTomasone]

Sorry to chime in here late and all, but I just got here.

A salute is a military greeting.  As such, it is never inappropriate to salute.

As far as I am concerned, if I see superior grade, I salute.

If I recognize someone who is of superior grade but not in uniform, I render all courtesies but the salute, which might look awkward to onlookers.


MY pet peeve, having come up as a Cadet in the era of CAPF 341 (remember those?) is the slackness of customs and courtesies I see at all levels since I rejoined - both amongst Cadets and Senior Members alike.

Of course, I haven't made a terrible stink about it as I don't want to be the anal Lieutenant, but it grates on me to see it, knowing how hard I studied it all and practiced it 100% of the time as a cadet.     If I failed to salute a Cadet or Senior Officer, or (gasp) dared to call them merely by their last name, I could expect to have a CAPF 341 pulled; enough of which would delay/deny a promotion - and at the very least would earn me a reprimand by my C/CC or Squadron/CC.    Similar for uniform infractions - and we were inspected VERY closely each week.   Hair touching the ears?   CAPF341, please.    Gig line off?   You got one chance to fix it, and it better not be off next week...   Chevrons off by 1/8 inch?  The same..   Don't make that mistake twice.
Oh - and if you showed up at an activity - say a SAREX - and didn't have the proper uniform?  You got sent HOME.   They called your parents and told them to come pick you up.   You learned not to do it twice.

Today, however, in my corner of the world, it seems like the customs and courtesies have largely been ignored - and I'm not sure if it's due to CPPT (can't haze the cadets by pointing out their mistakes?), or just that no one in authority cares.     You even get Senior Members who address cadets by their last name alone - which is prohibited by regulations.

I just hope this is a local and not widespread issue.   Makes me sad to see the pride in the uniform and the military heritage tossed to the wayside.   In my few years back, I've encountered only ONE cadet who rendered the proper customs and courtesies 100% of the time whenever required - and he was not yet an officer.

[DC]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

[BillB]

I was an Encampment Commander during the time frame you mention. I also worked with cadets at the Squadron, Group and Wing level. The time period you are talking about was when Senior members were more involved in the day-to-day cadet program. Prior to mentoring by cadet or senior staff. The main difference between then and now, is cadet officers/staff are less military due to two reasons. First, CPPT, cadet officers are less trained in (on average) and don't have the ability to correct uniform or military customs and courtesies that prior periods. Second is the removal of senior input in correcting cadet staff or providing leadershipinput into the cadet program.
Some will say the period you talk about produced "Rambo" type cadets. That's not true in that surveys conducted over the past 20 years have shown cadets want more of a disciplined  program. (at least three surveys I'm aware of) Comparing the encampments of the past and present day, you'll find that there is less emphasis on cadet or senior staff correcting items like the gig line, hair on collar, making beds correctly. etc.
The form 341 was a good yardstick on how cadets were progressing and could be used by promotion boards. Now I'd say that most Squadron CC's automatically promote a cadet after completing an achievement. CAPR 52-16 does not compare with the previous 50-16 in providing guidance to a DCP or CC at the Squadron level. The current Cadet Program is vastly different than the Cadet Program you grew up in.

[SamFranklin]

Now I'd say that most Squadron CC's automatically promote a cadet after completing an achievement. CAPR 52-16 does not compare with the previous 50-16 in providing guidance to a DCP or CC at the Squadron level.

Can you cite something from any version of 50-16 showing us how it provides more guidance to squadron commanders than the current version of 52-16? I think 52-16 goes into much more depth as to the goals of the program and how it ought to be conducted. For example, in section 2-4 it goes out of its way in explaining when, how, and why cadets should be retained in grade.  Performance standards in the leadership lab were sorely lacking until 52-16 introduced the big chart in Figure 2-2.  And national has given us a lot more resources than we've ever had before (just look at the 0-2 and ask yourself how many 52-series publications were available in say 1980).

I think you're over-generalizing about the Good Ole Days, which in retrospect, weren't that good.

-- 1980s cadet

[brasda91]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

How many times do we have to go over this:

Per CAPP 151... Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel.

[JoeTomasone]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

CAPP 151: Standards, Customs, and Courtesies

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior
members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the
cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the
appropriate term.

And also this KB article

During the conversation following, cadets should be addressed as "Cadet Smith" or "Cadet Jones" by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. (Note: Following military tradition, it is considered acceptable for the senior person to also use the first name of the subordinate, but not for the subordinate to use the first name of the senior.) Within the cadet structure, cadets should address other cadets by the appropriate title of address such as "Major Smith" or "Sergeant Jones."

But then, here's the telling part:

Since CAP is a volunteer and not a military service, members are often more informal especially during off duty times.

<bangs head>

[BuckeyeDEJ]

That still doesn't quite answer the question as to whether you can or cannot address a subordinate member by his last name. What the answers outline is what courtesy title to use when a courtesy title is used.

Members have been addressed with their last name, with or without courtesy titles (the junior never forgets the title, while the senior may drop it) for ages. This man's Civil Air Patrol, through however many wings I've been in over almost a quarter century, has always been that way.

If I call a cadet "Cadet Smith" and "Smith" interchangeably, there is no issue. The latter is more informal but operationally effective. Both are acceptable.

[JoeTomasone]

"NOTE: Cadets are addressed as `Cadet`"


Where's the ambiguity?


I agree with you, incidentally, in certain circumstances - such as subsequent personal addressing of the same cadet in a given conversation.     

[JohnKachenmeister]

This whole discussion is stupid.

Officers are saluted.  Junior initiates, and senior returns.

It doesn't make ANY difference what you are wearing.  You are a member of the AF Aux, and as such you are privileged to extend and receive the salute as a greeting.

I have been saluted by Army troops in civilian clothing.  I return the salute without fail.  Always.  Even if I'm in shorts and a ridiculously-loud colorful Hawaiian shirt, I come to attention and return the salute.

If you want to be stupid and act like some kind of barracks lawyer, go join the Boy Scouts.  They don't salute and you will therefore have much less stress in your life.  Plus you will not be in the position of annoying me, which is considered by most mental-health professionals to be a very dangerous activity since I returned from Vietnam.

[mikeylikey]

"NOTE: Cadets are addressed as `Cadet`"

Where's the ambiguity?   

Wow......you are smack on! 

Sidenote......when annoyed by ROTC cadets at work some days, I resort to calling them Private, almost instinctively.  Weird>!

[SarDragon]

I was not around in the time you describe, but I am frustrated with the lack of courtesy throughout CAP..

Where in regulations does it say that a SM cannot address a cadet by their last name?

NOTE Cadets are addressed as `Cadet` by CAP senior members, USAF officers, and enlisted personnel. Within the cadet structure, cadets will address other cadets by the appropriate term.

I learned a long time ago that it was improper to address folks by just their last names. It was certainly policy in the Air Force and the Navy WIWOAD. The other services were probably similar.

[ZigZag911]

Old Army saying:

"If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!"

[SarDragon]

Old Army saying:

"If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!"

Continuing with the Navy version - "And if you can't paint it, polish it!"

[Hawk200]

I'd have to agree with saluting any uniform that has grade insignia. I'll know when they outrank me.

When it comes to a golf shirt, I don't think salutes should be required. If I'm at some activity around members I don't personally know, I don't know if any of those people are higher ranking or not.

Then again, most of the people wearing golf shirts usually don't care about salutes.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Old Army saying:

"If it moves, salute it; if it doesn't move, paint it!"

Continuing with the Navy version - "And if you can't paint it, polish it!"

Or... my dog's attitude:  "If you can't eat it or chase it, pee on it."

[jb512]

Expect to be a salutor/salutee whenever grade insignia is displayed, period.

Expect to be a salutor/salutee at your discretion when grade insignia is not displayed, but a greeting is in order instead.

Move on...