New External AeroEd Program

[NIN]

http://www.cap.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3622&year=2007&month=10

CAP Jr. Cadet Program readies national launch in Ala.
Celebration scheduled for Oct. 26

October 15, 2007

NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS – The proven character-building power of the Civil Air Patrol's Cadet Program for 12-to-21-year-olds has been expanded to include a Junior Cadet Program for elementary school-aged children nationwide.

A "liftoff" celebration for the new Junior Cadet pilot program is set 10 a.m. Oct. 26 at Boaz High School's football stadium in Boaz, Ala.  National, state and local dignitaries, including Gov. Bob Riley, have been invited to attend.

The celebration will feature:

• A CAP aircraft fly-in
• An Air National Guard F-16 flyover.
• Parachute entry of "Cappy," the Junior Cadet mascot.
• A proclamation presentation.
• A hot air balloon lift-off.
• Model rocket launches. 

Boaz kindergarten, primary and intermediate schools are among 10 Alabama schools participating in the Junior Cadet pilot program.

About 300 teachers and 7,000 students in 20 public, private and parochial schools in Alabama and seven other states -- Florida, Pennsylvania, Colorado, Puerto Rico, Georgia, Nevada and Arizona -- are field testing the program this fall. The Junior Cadet Program will be available to all elementary schools in fall 2008.

The Junior Cadet Program will provide elementary students an introduction to vital life skills -- character education, academics with an aerospace emphasis, leadership opportunities and physical fitness. Designed by educators, it incorporates fun, hands-on activities with national standards-based lesson plans that can be integrated throughout the curriculum.   

The program augments CAP's School Enrichment Program for  middle and high school students that was introduced in Boaz schools three years ago. In that short period of time, the CAP program has contributed to Boaz middle school's move from near the bottom to fourth in the state in academic achievement.   

CAP's School Enrichment Program "for America's middle and high schools is playing a major role in improving student opportunity and responsibility nationwide," said Col. Al Applebaum, the program's director. "Teachers report better attendance, better test scores and lower incidence of behavioral problems." 

"Through the influence of this achievement-oriented program, students become more respectful, motivated, and goal-oriented as citizens and future leaders," said Susan Mallett, School Enrichment Program manager.   

The School Enrichment Program is also credited with expanding the horizons of students in rural areas, where agricultural-related jobs dominate the economic environment.

"These kids have never had the opportunity to be exposed to aviation the way they have since implementation of the CAP youth program," said Randall Haney, Boaz's assistant superintendent. "These young people now have an expectation to be involved in the aerospace developments of the future."   

Leland Dishman, Boaz City School System superintendent, welcomes the addition of the Junior Cadet Program. 

"I'm glad to be a part of this pilot program," said Dishman, who said the program will create a seamless venue for character development among students in grades kindergarten through 12th grade.

"The School Enrichment Program has allowed young people who were looking for something in which to belong an avenue to belong to something bigger than themselves, and they feel really good about themselves once they participate," he said.  "I'm hopeful what we've done here in Boaz will expand across this great nation."

"We have top-end kids, and we want them to have top-end opportunities in the aerospace and aviation industry,"  Dishman said. "We think once our kids see what they can do and what kind of lifestyle they can have, we'll have a complete paradigm shift in attitude."

Discuss. And yes, its in the Aero Ed forum for a reason...

[BillB]

About three years ago The SER Commander gave an OK to am expermental program for pre-teens. It basically was the Eaglet program of the 1960's, updated. The new Eaglet program was tried in a small unit in north east Florida to find problems and advantages of 10-12 year old involvement in the cadet program. The Eaglets wore an air force style shirt with just a black name tag with last name and CAP EAGLET on it along with blue jeans. No other insignia was authorized.
One of the problems was the Eaglets weren't allowed to take O-rides along with the cadets. Eaglets took part in regular cadet meet ing activities and training. But overall the limited experiment turned out well.
The 1960's program was not designed for schools but rather was to introduce the pre-teens to CAP.

[RiverAux]

Is there any basis for this new program in current CAP regulations?  I'm not claiming it is "illegal", just curious. 

[IceNine]

I don't see where there would be any contradiction because this is not a full grown project yet.  The PR says that it is a pilot..aka experiment.  The only way our reg's get changed is when there is an issue that get's addressed, tested and voted upon. 

I am all for trying new things, expanding the program etc.  And I will retract the following statement should I be proven wrong. 

I just don't see where the support for this program is going to come from.  I don't foresee that there will be all that many schools that embrace this, so I think it will flop.  Yes it can work in an isolated environment but much like the middle school intitive I think we will wind up with maybe a dozen or so programs throughout the country.

[RiverAux]

I don't see where there would be any contradiction because this is not a full grown project yet. 

I'm not saying there is a contradiction, just wondering exactly how it squares with our regulations.  For example, we are apparently calling this a "Junior Cadet" program.  Are these Junior cadets actually joining CAP?  Participating in CAP activities?  Do rules for senior conduct around cadets apply to "Junior Cadets"?  Are they wearing uniforms of some kind with CAP insignia on them?

The PR says that it is a pilot..aka experiment.  The only way our reg's get changed is when there is an issue that get's addressed, tested and voted upon. 

Just because it is a pilot program does not mean that existing CAP regulations don't apply.   I can't start a pilot program that does something prohibited by CAP regulations and get away with it just because it is a "pilot program".  I'm not saying that they're violating CAP regulations, just wondering what the heck is going on. 

[BillB]

For the expermental program in Florida, we could find no regulations that prohibited it. The Eaglets did not wear uniforms that were Air Force style, the only insignia was the name tag. The activities they took part in were mainly classroom training and D&C. A modified CAPF 15 was made up requiring parental OK for the training releasing CAP from any liability. And no dues were charged.
Because of the liability problem, the Eaglets were limited to activities and more senior involvement was required. Eaglets would have formed their own flight in formations if enough had taken part, but that wasn't the case. That idea was to keep them in their own peer group. In classroom situations, the Eaglets did as well as older cadets in all aspects of training.
However the limitation on Eaglets getting O-rides or taking part in bivouacs or overnight training was found to be a negative aspect of the Eaglet program. I was Project Officer the the experiment, and the program basically followed the much older Eaglet program that was in place. A nationawide new program would require a new regulation authorizing Eaglets and set up limitations or activities authorized.

[Lancer]

I for one do not understand the underlying apprehension and wariness from some of the members of this and other forums regarding this program. We all seem to bemoan the fact that we're tired of being 'America's best kept secret' and how our membership numbers are down.
Yet here we have a program, that is school based, does not directly involve the regular membership (unless they want to be, I'm sure) and grooms children to be the prospective cadets we all wished would walk through our meeting room doors.

I'm happy to see the effort being made to spread the awareness of CAP and our AE program and everyone else should be as well.

[DrDave]

How does our current Cadet Protection Program Training affect this new pilot program?

They're technically not cadets, right?

Dr. Dave

[sjtrupp]

This is a continuation of the program developed in Philadelphia, PA. There was an article in the Volunteer back in January. 

http://www.capchannel.com/volunteer_magazine

Most of the questions posed so far could be answered by reading the article. 

[NIN]

How does our current Cadet Protection Program Training affect this new pilot program?

They're technically not cadets, right?

Hence the reason this is posted in Aero Ed

[John Bryan]

I think the idea is excellent. Most national youth programs have jr programs for young kids......Boy Scouts have Cub Scouts, Girl Scouts have Brownies, Sea Cadets have Navy League Cadets.....So why not CAP

I hope this grows beyond AE and the Schools program and into the local squadrons.

[mikeylikey]

The only draw back is that Wings will drop the money on this program.  Already PAWG drops $150,000-200,000 to the school program JUST IN PHILY, with half of that going toward the "Pre-Cadet" program.  NOT A SINGLE CADET has moved on from "pre-Cadet" to the school program. 

In my opinion it is a waste of valuable resources if these kids don't become full fledged CAP cadets.  Let JROTC have at em! 

PLUS they are getting more advantages and opportunities than a REGULAR 13 year old cadet can receive.  Perhaps it is just PAWG......but the former Wing King is the driving force on this "Pre-Cadet" program, so I am sure we will see it take off just like in PAWG.

[Pylon]

In my opinion it is a waste of valuable resources if these kids don't become full fledged CAP cadets.  Let JROTC have at em!

So our third Aerospace Education mission is a valuable and worthwhile mission to spend time and money on only if it generates cadet recruits?   

Our external Aerospace Education mission is not just a recruiting tool for the Cadet Program.  It is a legitimate, full-fledged mission of Civil Air Patrol that we are supposed to be carrying out for the American public.

Nobody complains when we spend time and money making ES saves and the rescued pilots or search objectives don't become senior members.

[NIN]

I was at a meeting last week where this was announced to the membership and the representation (at that point) was that it will be great to see "these kids march around and salute and stuff.."  (clearly, that is not the focus of this Junior Cadet program.. its AE centric and from what I understand, it involves nearly no "cadet skills")

So either the program has a different focus that we're being told, or the field is not "getting the message" about what this program really is.  I'm inclined to believe the latter.

[NIN]

The only draw back is that Wings will drop the money on this program.  Already PAWG drops $150,000-200,000 to the school program JUST IN PHILY, with half of that going toward the "Pre-Cadet" program.  NOT A SINGLE CADET has moved on from "pre-Cadet" to the school program. 

Yikes.

Where did you get your information on what PA Wing spends?  I'm curious to see how accurate that is, and if it is, where the hell are they getting that kind of scratch from?  Grants?

That's a LOT of coin.    A lot of coin that, depending on its source, obviously, could potentially be spent on things that more directly enhance the three core missions of the organization (and not our other three missions: Safety, Wreaths Across America, and CISM... )

[mikeylikey]

^  The program itslef is not AE.....it may have some AE in it, but the focus of the program is RECRUITING.  I know people do not want to hear that.  I have seen it first hand in PAWG......they put these kids in blue shirts and show them what "can" happen if they join when they turn 12.  It could be a great program, but is starting out not so great

[mikeylikey]

The only draw back is that Wings will drop the money on this program.  Already PAWG drops $150,000-200,000 to the school program JUST IN PHILY, with half of that going toward the "Pre-Cadet" program.  NOT A SINGLE CADET has moved on from "pre-Cadet" to the school program. 

Yikes.

Where did you get your information on what PA Wing spends?  I'm curious to see how accurate that is, and if it is, where the hell are they getting that kind of scratch from?  Grants?

That's a LOT of coin.    A lot of coin that, depending on its source, obviously, could potentially be spent on things that more directly enhance the three core missions of the organization (and not our other three missions: Safety, Wreaths Across America, and CISM... )

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

[Maj Ballard]

I just don't see where the support for this program is going to come from.  I don't foresee that there will be all that many schools that embrace this, so I think it will flop.  Yes it can work in an isolated environment but much like the middle school intitive I think we will wind up with maybe a dozen or so programs throughout the country.

Actually Florida Wing alone currently has six squadrons in its middle-school-only "Group 800." Several more over the last several years have transitioned from Group 800 to regular geographic groups. I'm not sure of the exact total of successful middle school units in our Wing. My point is, I'm sure there are more than a "dozen or so" programs in the whole nation.

[RiverAux]

I think the fact that several folks who are a lot closer to this program than the rest of us disagree over what its purpose is shows that my earlier question about regulation issues was at least partially valid -- with no apparent plan or regulation addressing the program it seems to be ready to veer off into all sorts of different directions...

[dogboy]

You'll recall months ago there was an article in CAP Volunteer about an experimental program for ELEMENTARY school kids as CAP Cadets. Here is a newspaper article stating that the experiment will now be done in 10 schools including Boaz, Alabama.

http://www.sandmountainreporter.com/story.lasso?ewcd=98b41f4e071872bf

Frankly, IMHO, this is repulsive. A quasi-military program has no place in it for young children. Good citizenship is one thing, quasi-military programs for 5 year olds sounds like something from a totalitarian state.

Further, I think it will drive Cadets OUT OF the program. What 17 year old wants to be in a program that includes 5 year olds?  Already, Cadets drop out because the program is viewed as "kid stuff" because there are 12 year olds in it.

What particular expertise in child development does CAP have that makes National think that we would be any good at this anyway?

The solution to declining membership is better programs, not bringing in Cub Scout age Cadets.

I would like to know who is behind this unbelievably stupid and inappropriate program.

____________________________________________________
Civil Air Patrol students descend upon Boaz

By Elizabeth Summers
The Reporter   

Published October 27, 2007

Boaz High School was host to Civil Air Patrol officials as they lifted off a new nationwide Civil Air Patrol junior cadet program Friday.

The program, aimed at students ages 5 to 12 in elementary schools, will be field tested at Boaz and 10 other schools nationwide this year as a way to bring interest back into the Civil Air Patrol.

[Cadet Tillett]

Was this another Pineda thing?

That is sick.  Even the 12-year olds have a hard time with the program sometimes.  The program should be kept for older, more mature youth.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Initially, the minimum entry age was 14.  That's about where it should be.  13 if the kid is in high school, but NO LOWER!

[addo1]

  Like a 5 year old is really ever going to be able to pass a high school level aerospace exam.  Crazy.       I think this is a bad choice for CAP, personally.

[PA Guy]

This has already been discussed in the Aerospace Ed section of this forum in a thread called New External AeroEd Prog.

[star1151]

Frankly, IMHO, this is repulsive. A quasi-military program has no place in it for young children. Good citizenship is one thing, quasi-military programs for 5 year olds sounds like something from a totalitarian state.

5 year olds?  One word comes to mind when I think that, and that's "distasteful".   5 year olds are just too impressionable and I agree that it sounds like something from a totalitarian state.  Can a 5 year old really comprehend what the program is all about, or is it just something Mommy and Daddy are making him do?

[addo1]

  A lot of cadets are getting ready for joining the service and are getting good training in CAP.  Say, it out flat..  Mature teens do not want to have to babysit all the sudden just so young elementary kids can "try to have fun" and get nothing out of it, while the teen is preparing himself mentally and physically for his career in the military or such.  Believe me, if anyone has sense this will not last.

[PA Guy]

Folks, read the referenced thread.  This is a program run by the AE folks not the CP section.  These kids will not participate in THE cadet program.  They have a different curriculum.  No grade, no uniforms, no milestone awards etc. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Folks, read the referenced thread.  This is a program run by the AE folks not the CP section.  These kids will not participate in THE cadet program.  They have a different curriculum.  No grade, no uniforms, no milestone awards etc. 

"...as they lifted off a new nationwide Civil Air Patrol junior cadet program, Friday."

We CAN read.

[PA Guy]

Do you believe everything you read in the papers, especially an AL newspaper?  These youngsters can't show up at your sqdn and request to join.  This program is being run by as an external AE program by the AE section at NHQ.  The Cadet Program section has nothing to do with it.  Participants will not be enrolled as cadets in CAP.  I discussed this program at length with Curt Lafond when I was at NHQ last week because when I first heard about it I had some of the same concerns you have. 

[lordmonar]

This is just like the Explorers, Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.....similar but completely separate programs.

One of the telling thing about this particular announcement is the reaction of the posters....not only do they not like this new program they also voice their dislike for the current program.

Hey guys......the cadet program is for the youth of America...not the other way around.

If you wait until the young person is 14-15 before your get him hooked on to CAP you are going to never hook em.

Get them early, make if fun and age appropriate and you will keep them.

[BillB]

During the 1950's or 60's CAP had an "Eaglet" program for 10-13 year olds. It was run as an introduction to aerospace and the cadet program.  No grades were authorized, no ribbons, and I don't remember if a uniform of any type was allowed. The program was effective into bringing "Eaglet" graduates into the cadet program when they reached the minimum age (at that time) of 13. But funding and other problems at the National level ended the program.
Four years ago the SER Commander (whose name we don't mention) gave an OK to try an expermental program at a Florida Wing unit for 10 and 11 year olds. The uniform was an AF style shirt, blue jeans and a black name tag that read CAP EAGLET with the last name. No grade was given, and the Eaglet did not take part in most cadet activities other than AE classes and their own D&C, separate from the regular cadets. It was very successful in that 100% of the Eaglets joined CAP as cadets on reaching minimum age. The program died when the unit was dechartered due to poor leadership.
The proposed 5-12 year old program that National is trying I think carries the Eaglet program to an extreme in that minimum age should be 8, not 5 years of age. This is based on what is taught at that age level in science classes or other applicable elementry school classes. A 5 year old doesn't have the cognative learning to understand the aspects of aerospace education in it's simplist forms.

[star1151]

If you wait until the young person is 14-15 before your get him hooked on to CAP you are going to never hook em.

I joined at the age of 26, and I'd even go so far as to say that MOST senior members weren't cadets...but we're hooked.

[RADIOMAN015]

I guess my question is WHO is funding this entire project?  Is it coming out of dues OR did they get grant money for it...  I think we need concentrate our energy/resources on the current cadet program without all this "misson crep" into other areas.  Seems somewhat similiar to the model for cubscouts & boyscouts!!!

RADIOMAN015 

[Grumpy]

When I came back into CAP in '93 I couldn't believe the age (12) of the cadets.  I thought we were running a nursery school.  Now I KNOW we are.

I couldn't join in the 50's until I reached 14.  If this goes, I'll just transfer from a Composite Squadron to a Senior Squadron.  I don't want anything to do with elementary school kids.

[MIKE]

Topics merged.

[dogboy]

Do you believe everything you read in the papers, especially an AL newspaper? 

I'm disappointed that you apparently think Alabamians are stupid. In stories like this, the report writes what he/ she is told. If the reporter call them "Cadets", you can be pretty certain it's a repeat of what was said.

[PA Guy]

Do you believe everything you read in the papers, especially an AL newspaper? 

I'm disappointed that you apparently think Alabamians are stupid. In stories like this, the report writes what he/ she is told. If the reporter call them "Cadets", you can be pretty certain it's a repeat of what was said.

I never said people in AL were stupid. However, having been born in AL and having lived in AL I am very familiar with the small town newspapers that abound in N. AL like the one quoted in this thread. The LA Times it isn't. But that aside, the remark was meant to be light hearted, oh well so much for humor.

This project is an external AE program run by the AE section not the CP section. These youngsters will not be in the "regular" cadet program.   They will not be showing up at encampment or taking the Spaatz.  If that happens there will be a race between Grumpy and I to find the nearest Senior sqdn.

[addo1]

 

Do you believe everything you read in the papers, especially an AL newspaper? 

I'm disappointed that you apparently think Alabamians are stupid. In stories like this, the report writes what he/ she is told. If the reporter call them "Cadets", you can be pretty certain it's a repeat of what was said.

... If that happens there will be a race between Grumpy and I to find the nearest Senior sqdn..

Yep, and us older cadets will be stuck with all the babysitting?  

[dogboy]

This is just like the Explorers, Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.....similar but completely separate programs.

One of the telling thing about this particular announcement is the reaction of the posters....not only do they not like this new program they also voice their dislike for the current program.

Hey guys......the cadet program is for the youth of America...not the other way around.

If you wait until the young person is 14-15 before your get him hooked on to CAP you are going to never hook em.

Get them early, make if fun and age appropriate and you will keep them.

I'm sorry to say, I disagree entirely. I am a sociologist with extensive training in human development.

Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are not quasi-military programs. (Evidence: have you ever seen them march? If you have, you know they don't practice.)

Cub and Boy Scouts are family and neighborhood groups based programs appropriate for young children. They have a broad base of activities, with more elective activities (merit badges) as the kids get older. Younger kids need a wide range of skills and aerospace education is, at best, an extremely peripheral one for them. They need to learn to interact with a broad range of kids, not just those who share their narrow interests. They need moral training.

The CAP Cadet program until recent madness, ALWAY had 14 or 15 as a minimum age. At this age, late middle school and high school,  kids have moved beyond neighborhood groups and are forming peer groups based on choice, ability, and interest. There's:  preppies, jocks, stoners, freaks, drama queens, surfers, skateboarders, tools, nerds and others (The names for these groups vary among schools but they're always there. I read about this in the FIRST sociology book I ever read Elmtown's Youth, 1949).

This is where the CAP Cadet program should be, offering an alternative, not to the Cub Scouts, but for the late middle-school and high school kids to being a just a skateboarder, just a nerd, or just a jock. Instead, the lowering of the minimum age for Cadets drives out high school students and prevents them from joining. A sensible high school kid does not wants to be in a program with 12 year olds. It's humiliating.

The minimum age for Cadets was lowered simply because the Cadet program was losing numbers. What wasn't considered was that what it gains in numbers from 12 year olds, it looses from the 16, 17 and 18 year olds never join or drop out because they don't want to associate with kids that young  and because the program is standards and activities have been lowered to accommodate young children.

Analogy: can you imagine an 18 year olds and 12 year olds playing baseball or basketball on the same team? Or sitting in the same school classes? Of course not, we all know the physical, emotional, and intellectual differences are too great. And it would be demeaning to the 18 year old and confusing and scary to the 12 year old. (Of course there is always the exceptional 11 year old who can take high school classes or is big enough to play high school ball, but we're discussing averages here).

But this is exactly what the Cadet program tries to do. A sixteen year old who joins might have a twelve year old as a drill instructor. Twelve-year olds sit in classes that bewilder them while seventeen-year olds sit in the same class and are bored. The Cadets go on a bivouac. The 12 year olds can't keep up and the 17 year olds are held back.

You say: "make if fun and age appropriate". A program that tries to serve kids from 12 to age 18 cannot be either age-appropriate or fun for anyone.

It's no wonder that perhaps 50% of cadets drop out during their first year.

This bizarre new program for 5-12 year olds ought to be directed toward 12-14 year olds instead. Get 12 and 13 year olds out of the Cadet program and into a limited aerospace education program, like the one proposed.

[addo1]

 Ok, I agree for the most part.  Now, think about this.  Could they make a SEPERATE area for younger cadets that would be both fun and age appropiate for them?  Could they maybe start a program for younger kids, for them only?  Either way, I stay with my first opinion- the minimum age for a composite squadron should be 12.

[pixelwonk]

Holy mob mentality, Batman!

If posting uninformed opinions is just how some of you roll, ...well go ahead, I guess.
But I'd urge all to read the published stories and take a note or two from the more experienced members who just might be more informed about this issue before embarrassing yourselves further.


This thread needs a Ned.

[PA Guy]

Now, think about this.  Could they make a SEPERATE area for younger cadets that would be both fun and age appropiate for them?  Could they maybe start a program for younger kids, for them only?  Either way, I stay with my first opinion- the minimum age for a composite squadron should be 12.

You have just described the Junior Cadet pilot project we have been discussing.

[Grumpy]

14

[Chappy]

I am jumping in here late in the game but have been following the junior cadet program for some time.  I work with a regular composite squadron and a cadet squadorn in a junior high school.

I do not believe that making young children "cadets" is a good thing.  A 12 year old has a tough enought problems with the materials and 'leadership' development.  Most of the younger cadet program is adult driven which makes it little different than cub scouts.  

Our goal is to develop leaders with a little aerospace education thrown in there...not the other way around.

[Grumpy]

Amen, Chappy

[PA Guy]

I am jumping in here late in the game but have been following the junior cadet program for some time.  I work with a regular composite squadron and a cadet squadorn in a junior high school.

I do not believe that making young children "cadets" is a good thing.  A 12 year old has a tough enought problems with the materials and 'leadership' development.  Most of the younger cadet program is adult driven which makes it little different than cub scouts.  

Our goal is to develop leaders with a little aerospace education thrown in there...not the other way around.

I agree.  Of all the things they could have called their new program they had to choose Junior Cadet.  The use of the word "cadet" has caused nothing but confusion and angst in the CP community.

[RiverAux]

I definetely agree that "Junior Cadet" was a bad choice. 

[Grumpy]

What's wrong with the term "Cadet"?  They're definitely not " Seniors".  Besides that what do they call those young military types going through our academies?

[RiverAux]

Oddly enough while I don't like the term cadet in this context, the program sort of proves a point that I brought up in another thread http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1433.0 -- that no matter how we have set up our organization to handle cadets and despite the "three mission" framework that is often used, the cadet program is technically a subset of one of our 5 (4 if you accept my re-write) missions --aerospace education. 

[dogboy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

[Pylon]

If you look at it from the standpoint of an external Aerospace Education initiative wherein young kids in schools learn about aviation and aerospace from a young age, it's a great application of our AE mission.   Calling them cadets?  Yes, I agree - maybe a bit questionable, since internally we will necessarily draw connections to the Cadet Program.  But understand these are two different programs with two different goals.

[NIN]

I'm sorry to say, I disagree entirely. I am a sociologist with extensive training in human development.

Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are not quasi-military programs. (Evidence: have you ever seen them march? If you have, you know they don't practice.)

Funny, I learned formations and dress right dress in the Webelos.  Sure, we didn't march (much, if at all), but dress right dress, open and close ranks, and how to fall in were taught so we could have our uniforms inspected each night.

Maybe our Webelo leader was a little bit of a freak. Not sure.  The more I think about it, maybe he was. 

<snip>

The CAP Cadet program until recent madness, ALWAY had 14 or 15 as a minimum age. At this age, late middle school and high school,  kids have moved beyond neighborhood groups and are forming peer groups based on choice, ability, and interest. There's:  preppies, jocks, stoners, freaks, drama queens, surfers, skateboarders, tools, nerds and others (The names for these groups vary among schools but they're always there. I read about this in the FIRST sociology book I ever read Elmtown's Youth, 1949).

14 or 15?

Since when?  Maybe in the 1950s.

I joined as a cadet in 1981.  I was 14. I could have joined at 12.  Wish I had (I would have avoided the lame Boy Scout troop I went to, then...*sigh*).  The age minimum was "12 and completed 6th grade"

I have no problem with 12 year old cadets as long as we can get them into uniforms.

I do have issues with "less than 12 year old cadets" which we had for a time when the age minimum was changed to "12 years old OR attending 6th grade"  Hell, some home-schoolers were sending in 10 year olds claiming "They're attending our 6th grade.." Gimme a break!

This is where the CAP Cadet program should be, offering an alternative, not to the Cub Scouts, but for the late middle-school and high school kids to being a just a skateboarder, just a nerd, or just a jock. Instead, the lowering of the minimum age for Cadets drives out high school students and prevents them from joining. A sensible high school kid does not wants to be in a program with 12 year olds. It's humiliating.

Not quite.  If you recruit correctly, you're bringing in 12-14 year olds on a regular basis, 15-17 year olds infrequently. 

If a cadet is a high school student, they've likely been in CAP for a time and have advanced thru the program.  The 17 year old Airman happens, but far, far less frequently than we really need to concentrate on or base the strategic direction of the program on.  If a kid comes to CAP and says "I'm 16, I just got my driver's license, a car, and a hot girlfriend.." chances are he's going to be a "first term loss."   'Cuz he needs a job... 

But the illustration of a 12 year old marching around a 17 year old, while a wonderful counterpoint, is just not that typical or even easily possible.    You're not recruiting that many 17 year olds (and if you do, please tell me you're screening them with a membership board and making sure they're under no illusions about the program), and a 12 year old is going to be an A1C/SrA.  He'll be all of 13 before he becomes a C/NCO and starts ordering folks around!   (If your unit is  tiny, yeah, you may wind up with a C/A1C c/CC.  But what 17 year old is going to join that lame outfit in the first place?)

The minimum age for Cadets was lowered simply because the Cadet program was losing numbers. What wasn't considered was that what it gains in numbers from 12 year olds, it looses from the 16, 17 and 18 year olds never join or drop out because they don't want to associate with kids that young  and because the program is standards and activities have been lowered to accommodate young children.

Like I said, the cadet program has had 12 as its minimum age (in various forms) for as long as I've been in the program.  During the 1980s, we had lots of cadets.  Maybe not as many as in the 1950s (I've always wanted to see that membership trend versus major historical events. Talk about a sociologist's wet dream!), but we had plenty of 16-20 year old cadets who had ZERO issue with us 12-15 year old cadets.  We were the airmen, they were the senior NCOs and cadet officers.  Period.

<snip>
But this is exactly what the Cadet program tries to do. A sixteen year old who joins might have a twelve year old as a drill instructor. Twelve-year olds sit in classes that bewilder them while seventeen-year olds sit in the same class and are bored. The Cadets go on a bivouac. The 12 year olds can't keep up and the 17 year olds are held back.

See above.  Your older cadets *should* be age-appropriate for cadet leadership, and your younger cadets should be in the "Follower" achievements.  My unit attempts to recruit predominately at middle schools and places where the younger teen set are, versus a high school. If you haven't hooked 'em by 14, chances are you're not, or better yet: you shouldn't.  (its hard to remind the older cadets who are now in 9th grade, high school, that they need to not recruit at their school but rather go back to their old middle school and recruit...)

Our last open house netted us 14 potential cadets and 2 potential officers. (Inprocessing is this week, lets see how much melt we have and how many we really get)  All the cadets are 12-13.  Our last open house brought us a cadet who is 16, about to turn 17.  She was under NO illusion about what she was getting into (her brother is a cadet, too).  I pinned SrA on her last week, and at the same time she asked me for a letter of recommendation for college.  Oops.  But she's out there participating like everybody else and understands that she's late in the game and may not make it to her Mitchell before she goes off to college.  I have heard or seen nothing that indicates that she's unhappy that some 15 year old C/2Lt was her flight commander, and in fact, she does well on achievement testing (could that be indicative of the subject material being beneath her? Maybe.) and has moved up smoothly in the cadet program. (she's been in about 7 months, and she's a C/SrA.. that's about right..)

YMMV, as always.  But this "junior cadet" program is not, even as some national board members have mistakenly suggested, intended to explore the military aspects of the program, but rather to serve as an "AE lead in" to CAP for youth.  I don't think its a bad idea, as long as it stays that way.

My guess is, it won't. Some well-intending but completely clueless local CAP commander someplace will try to put uniforms and formations into this thing and it will all go to hell...

[SJFedor]

I would like to know who is behind this unbelievably stupid and inappropriate program.

Col Applebaum, former PAWG/CC.

I'd love to see the curiculum and see how they're making this program work for elementary school age kids. When I was a 7 year old, I didn't even have the discipline to clean my toys up, yet they believe they're going to bring them into a quasi-military style program?

[jimmydeanno]

I think you should read the article about it and perhaps view some of the pictures from the January edition of the Volunteer.  They aren't trying to produce drill team cadets...

In the inner city of Philadelphia, where gangs are commonplace and student discipline in school is a major challenge, one school is beating the odds with the help of Civil Air Patrol.

Creighton School has partnered with the Pennsylvania Wing to pilot a kindergarten through fifth grade pre-cadet school program. The brainchild of principal Capt. Katherine McKeller-Carter, the program started three years ago with 15 cadets. It now includes students in grades 6, 7 and 8, and this year was extended to the younger students in K-5.

The program has become so popular that parents are moving into the area so their children can attend Creighton and participate, said Capt. Katherine Smith, deputy squadron commander and a teacher in the program. "We teach character, leadership and responsibility. The students love the program. We hold them to very high standards to do what they've not been challenged to do in the past," she said. A visitor to the CAP classrooms would easily notice there is something different about these Creighton students. When the principal is about to enter a classroom, the children in the younger grades are brought to attention by their student leader with a sharp "Captain on deck!" The pre-cadets stand up straight and tall in their CAP attire as they salute the principal (their "captain"). In class, K-5 students learn the four tenets of the CAP program: character, leadership, aerospace and fitness, which are fully integrated into the curriculum. They wear either a CAP pre-cadet crew shirt or a physical training sweat suit. While they do not progress in rank, as do regular cadets, they are nonetheless prepared to enter sixth grade with a strong background knowledge of CAP customs because they are mentored by their CAP counterparts at the middle school level.

With the younger students, aerospace education starts early. One group might be working on building a model of the Hubble satellite, while another works on a model airport or paper airplanes. "I'll ask them to draw me an airplane, to use their imagination," said Capt. Reginald McDonald, Pennsylvania's middle school initiative coordinator and adviser to the Pennsylvania Wing's CAP School Program. "I tell them, 'Dare to dream, because if you stop dreaming, progress stops.' " In grades 6, 7 and 8, the older students start their day with a morning inspection, and then lead the school and the local community in the raising of the flag and Pledge of Allegiance. They also take responsibility for teaching and working closely with the pre-cadets, teaching them cadences, and keeping them in line as they go to the school lunchroom and playground. "Each of the younger pre-cadets has an Air Force or Army cadence they sing," said McDonald. "I taught it to the older cadets, and they taught the kids. I've told them what they do in uniform is going to affect what that little child sees and does." The discipline and responsibility built into the program is working. CAP students are less likely to get into
fights, they are more respectful of each other and more responsible at home. "When they see their friends getting ready to get into a fight or conflict, they will stop them," he said, "and they are more willing to tell us what's going on. There is a general air about them; they take constructive criticism, and they are able to be corrected." It wasn't that way just three years ago. When the CAP program started, principal McKeller-Carter remembers the first students who participated took ribbing from their classmates. "The other kids would tease those in CAP about their uniforms," she said. Not any more. The next year, more cadets were brought into the program until it was taken into sixth, seventh and eighth grades. Then last year, the K-5 students joined in to make it a CAP Academy. "Now everyone wants to be a part of it," she said. "It's that elitism they feel. The teachers have all joined CAP as senior members and even parents have joined.

"The students have to keep their grades up and their attendance up. We keep telling them they are the only pilot program like this in the nation. Failure is not an option," she said. The "orderly, organized climate" of Creighton has caught the eye of higher-ups in the school system. Wendy Shapiro, regional superintendent for the North Region of Philadelphia schools, said the program's success has convinced officials to have CAP programs in at least two other schools. "And we are looking to move it into one of our high schools," she said. The educators are "as excited as the cadets and junior cadets," said Pennsylvania Wing Commander Col. Al Applebaum. "The K-5 pilot program will allow CAP to reach more young people and engage them in positive, patriotic programs that will provide
enrichment. Character development, leadership training and aviation: This combination cannot be beaten."

Parents like the changes they are seeing in their children who are involved. Brenda Tejire's children, ages 7 and 11, "are more responsible, they're energetic about projects, and it keeps them very interested," she said. "They get home, their homework gets done. I can't even explain it." Nubia Santiago's daughter, Gloria, is a seventh grader who was shy and insecure before becoming part of the CAP program. Now she's developing leadership skills that have helped her in many ways. "I've learned discipline. I've flown in a plane. I've had a lot of opportunities you wouldn't normally have if you weren't in CAP," said Gloria. "If you were in a regular class, it would be crazy and hectic, but now everyone's on point and it's neat and everyone is cooperating together. Everyone knows what they're supposed to do and they do it." Gloria, 12, has some older friends who are gang members, but she encourages them to leave that lifestyle. "I tell them: 'CAP will help you in the future; with gangs you will end up in jail. A CAP scholarship will get you through college. Life will be better. Gangs may seem cooler, but you're wasting your life.' " If principal McKeller-Carter had her way, her entire school of 900 students would be involved in CAP. "Our kids are learning things they've never learned before. I
wish you could see their faces when they come back from their orientation flights. That's something I could have never offered them," she said. She's also taken students camping at Fort Indiantown Gap, and most have never been camping before. On days off, instead of taking a vacation, students want to do CAP activities and physical training at the nearby naval base. "You can't pay for that kind of responsibility from a child," she said.

It doesn't seem like they're having too many problems maintaining discipline...didn't you have to stand in single file lines in elementary school?  They are teaching them simple concepts like respect, dignity, patriotism, etc using AE and other basic principles found in cadet life.

I say go for it! Great Work!

[dogboy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

[PA Guy]

PAWG just released it prior-year Financial.  (after a lawyer got involved).  Anyone that wants a copy please call the Wing Administrator there. 

They got $550,000 from the state, another $120,000 from donations and a few grants and the Philly school system is giving into the school program (slightly).  They also receive some of the most NHQ provided funds.

With that kind of money, there had to be a serious evaluation of the program at the end of the first year. Any idea where it can be found? I searched the PA Wing web page but found nothing.

I would like to see what outcomes there were from this $700,000.

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

Using the quoted figures it looks like the school got 550,000 from the state of PA and another 120,000 in donations for a total of 670,000.  Some additional funds came from grants so it looks like CAPs contribution would be less than 30,000.  If you called NHQ/AE they would probably tell you.  A previous post also said a financial report was available from the PAWG administrator, give them a call.   

[dogboy]

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

Using the quoted figures it looks like the school got 550,000 from the state of PA and another 120,000 in donations for a total of 670,000.  Some additional funds came from grants so it looks like CAPs contribution would be less than 30,000.  If you called NHQ/AE they would probably tell you.  A previous post also said a financial report was available from the PAWG administrator, give them a call.   

And where did the State of Pennsylvania get $555,000 to spend on this? That's our money too, not just the $30,000 from CAP.

If this program was such a success in Philadelphia that it's being expanded to twenty other schools, why isn't there an evaluation report of it available?

[Grumpy]

Not only that, but why aren't they making more noise about it and letting the general public and membership know about it?

[JayT]

I'm having some trouble with the image of a bunch of five year olds saluting........that doesn't seem right.

[star1151]

I'm having some trouble with the image of a bunch of five year olds saluting........that doesn't seem right.

Looks like some kind of communist reeducation program.  And yes, I'm serious.

[cnitas]

If the program is about AE and not CP, then why any uniforms other than a t-shirt (like tiger cubs) and why saluting?

I think I see BDUs in the school bus pic as well.  Are there 5-10 yo's wearing BDUs?

Do we have BDU clad members 'teaching' 5yr olds how to salute? And what does that have to do with AE?

Either way, I think it is questionable. 
Being 'popular' is not the same thing as being 'right'. 

[PA Guy]

I'm still waiting for someone to point me to an evaluation of this program. I would like to see if there are actually measurable outcomes from this $700,000 of our money.

I don't know but there may very well be an evaluation report.  Where have you tried to find it?  You might try NHQ/AE, PAWG Administrator or the school(s) involved.  Let us know what you find it would be interesting.

[RiverAux]

The Executive Director's column in the Nov-Dec Volunteer says that this program will be tested by 300 teachers and 7,000 students.  Thats right -- 7,000.  If that is what actually happens, I can't help but think this will eventually benefit the actual cadet program as well as being a good AE project in its own right. 

[dogboy]

The Executive Director's column in the Nov-Dec Volunteer says that this program will be tested by 300 teachers and 7,000 students. 

In my opinion, this shows that those running this program (who are they anyway?) truly don't know what they are doing. It's impossible to train 300 teachers in a year to present similar material in a similar way.

If the dissimilar material is presented in various ways, then the "test" is no test at all. What makes a test valid is that the variables are constant.

Anyone with knowledge of how to test educational programs could have explained that it's not the size of the experiment that matters but the validity of it. Size doesn't make validity, in fact, as here, it works against it.

[RiverAux]

According to the Nov AE program newsletter they're doing it in 20 schools nationwide.  We're only talking about an average of 15 teachers per school based on their target of 300 teachers nationwide.  This is extremely do-able especially since it will be spread across the country any one wing won't have to do more than 1 or 2 workshops.  Not a problem at all.

[dogboy]

According to the Nov AE program newsletter they're doing it in 20 schools nationwide.  We're only talking about an average of 15 teachers per school based on their target of 300 teachers nationwide.  This is extremely do-able especially since it will be spread across the country any one wing won't have to do more than 1 or 2 workshops.  Not a problem at all.

Perhaps you don't understand how to do educational research. The 200 teachers, in 20 different locations, have to be taught not only the substantive material, but how to present it in a similar manner.

Then they have to be monitored to ensure that they are presenting it similarly.

The students in both the experimental and control groups of students that will  not been exposed have to be pre-tested to ensure they are equivalent. (There are control groups aren't there?) Post-exposure, both groups of students have to be tested to measure the outcomes for the students.

Finally, follow-up testing will be required at least once sometime in the future to determine whether any changes were lasting.

That's 300 teachers trained, then monitored. Fourteen thousand pre-tests, Fourteen thousand post-tests, and fourteen thousand follow-up tests.

This is the minimum that must be done. For a decent study, the teachers should be interviewed post-experiment and the conduct, knowledge, and beliefs of the students in both the experimental and control groups should be analyzed several times subsequently, over a period of years.

It's very, very common for educational programs to have seemly dramatic effects, which in, fact, disappear over time.

I've done dozens and dozens of educational programs tests. Programs which appear to have obvious value very often turn out to do nothing constructive and are sometimes harmful. Classic examples are: "Scared-Straight Prison Programs", "Midnight Basketball", and most notoriously, the original DARE program.

When a "test" is badly organized, one or both of two things are occurring: the program "testers" simply don't know what they are doing. Or the program originators are running the the test and they are rigging it so that it shows positive results.

I would like to know who exactly is supporting and running this program? Do they have training and experience in curriculum development and evaluation? Where is the money coming from?

[RiverAux]

I have quite a bit of training and experience in research techniques and I wouldn't disagree with your comments in general.  However, you're operating under the assumption that they intend to do a detailed analysis of the program.  To my knowledge nothing along these lines has ever been done for any of our programs.
For example, I've not been able to find anything validating our DDR program. 

I suspect that the evaluation will be much more informal.

Perhaps you should apply for the national level advisor position for this program.  I would like to see more rigorous evaluation of our programs and you may be the right person to do it.   

[Cadet Tillett]

I am jumping in here late in the game but have been following the junior cadet program for some time.  I work with a regular composite squadron and a cadet squadorn in a junior high school.

I do not believe that making young children "cadets" is a good thing.  A 12 year old has a tough enought problems with the materials and 'leadership' development.  Most of the younger cadet program is adult driven which makes it little different than cub scouts.  

Our goal is to develop leaders with a little aerospace education thrown in there...not the other way around.

I agree.  Of all the things they could have called their new program they had to choose Junior Cadet.  The use of the word "cadet" has caused nothing but confusion and angst in the CP community.

I don't care what the hell they call the program, it is my humble (as always) opinion that bringing younger kids into a program that already has discipline/bearing problems among the younger cadets will have a bad impact on the program.  This program is leadership training, not babysitting.

[RiverAux]

Interestingly, the Young Marines program starts at age 8. 

[BillB]

True the Young Marine program starts younger, but they don't have a CPPT program to worry about such as yelling at Marine cadets.

[RiverAux]

Actually they do have rules against that sort of thing.  I'm assuming you weren't advocating yelling at 8-year olds as a great motivational strategy.