How often is a 2b issued and what exactally warrants one?

[Major Carrales]

As a Squadron Commander I have never has to use the "NUCLEAR OPTION" of a CAPF 2b...but, the time may come where I may have to use it.

Let us, my Brother and Sister CAP Officers, have an honest discussion that will be insightful and helpful to Commanders.

[Al Sayre]

I had to use it during my first weeks as a commander when I had a Cadet Officer who had stopped coming to meetings get out of hand and start threatening to keep and/or destroy CAP property if I didn't comply with his demands. 

I sent him the 2b by certified mail along with a letter explaining that if he failed to return the squadron property that he would be receiving a visit from the local Sheriff. 

There's a lot more to the story, but I won't air it on a public forum, so don't ask.

I am also considering using it to cut some deadwood in the squadron, specifically a few Cadets whose parents made them join, and seldom if ever attend, and when they do tend to be rather disruptive...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I've seen the 2B option used once.  Mostly disgruntled members quit coming and fail to renew. 

[capchiro]

The procedure for 2b is long and fraught with danger when one considers the appeal options of the one being 2bed.  That said, I have used one because a cadets membership expired and the mother was a sponsoring parent.  Accordingly, I had to 2b her as she no longer had a son in the program and was no longer eligible to be a sponsoring parent.  so, this was kind of an administrative 2b.  2b's are normally used for grievous matters and shouldn't be used lightly.  If someone is not attending or participating, it is sometimes best to let it ride and they sometimes see the light later on.  One needs to remember that all school activities take precedence over CAP and so during band season, I have a cadet that doesn't participate for 3-4 months at a time.  We need to remember that we are an influence in the lives of our members, even if for only a short time and we don't think they "get" the program.  It is amazing to see what happens over a period of years.  A cadet that seemed disinterested for 1-2 years may come back 5-10 years later and be a great senior member.  Being a legal officer at times, I have seen the 2b used mostly for situations where seniors were in trouble for hazing or otherwise bothering cadets.  This was usually after a warning, etc.  A non-active member may be transfered to a "ghost" squadron if there is one in the Wing or to the squadron at National and still be on the books for later if they decide that their life is in order enough for them to get active again.  I would use the 2b for only the most serious of problems and not for petty situations or because someone missed meetings or wasn't progressing satisfactorily.

[AlphaSigOU]

Leave the 2b as the last and final option when verbal admonitions and written reprimands fail.

[Pylon]

For those who lose interest in the program, the 2B really isn't the route to go.  For senior members, you can always convert them to Patron status.  If a cadet up and disappears and never comes back, you can always transfer them to your Wing holding squadron (i/e: NER-NY-000).  A 2B is a long and drawn out process and not intended for those types of personnel actions.


For the disruptive type, make sure you've explored every other possible action first, including verbal and written reprimands, demotion and/or suspension from CAP.  There should be a clear and documented history of escalating disciplinary actions for a habitually disruptive member.  This way, nobody can appeal and say that Member John Doe really was an upstanding member who slipped up once and suddenly you went full-on nuclear - you've got a documented history that shows lesser disciplinary action just won't work thus justifying a 2B action.

I've never been involved in any 2B action and I hope I never have to be.  From what I've heard from those who have, it's messy, it's long and drawn out, and they wish they didn't have to be involved with it.   That alone should be motivation to do your best to resolve problems before they get to that level, when at all possible.   

[SARMedTech]

As an EMT, I frequently spend 4-5 months a year in the Canadian Arctic, Alaska and Russia providing pre-hospital emergency care and med-evac dust offs in the oil fields there. Would I appear to someone to just not be all that hard working or committed to CAP and have someone come along and "disenroll" me? I love my job and I love CAP and I really would like to do both, but I wouldnt like the thought of getting my mail forwarded to be at our base camp and finding a letter stating that I had been demoted or dropped. I would hope that job requirements would be seen a little differently than just not showing up, not completing courses, etc. Any insights?

[Capt M. Sherrod]

SAR - I would hope/imagine that you CC knows that you are working and doesn't just 2b you for not being around.

In general response to the question of how often - I think it really boils down to the situation and the people involved.  The 2b is not just a "nuke".  There are 9 reasons for a 2b for cadets - only one of which allows for an appeal (misconduct), and there are 14 options for SM with only one of those being 'administrative' and therefore not subject to appeal.

While I am not inclined to file a 2b unless it is truly needed (having been previously and properly documented), there are situations where you have folks who have said they are no longer going to participate.  You need to sit down with those folks and find out why that is (there may be some local issues that need to be addressed).  If there are no issues, then administratively, if you need to get them off the roles, you use the Voluntary Resignation part of the 2b.  Moving them to a "ghost squadron" isn't always an option.

[Major Lord]

I have had a few experiences. in one , a cadet tried to run another cadet off the freeway with his car...twice, after being warned that murdering ones brother cadets was frowned upon....Fortunately, he voluntarily resigned before the 2B process could go through.

We had a Senior Member go "little league dad" on us, and make death threats against  seniors, cadets , etc. He wrote letters to the President, the Air Force, Etc. CAP initially did not offer our Squadron much support, instead trying to do everything to blow us off. We ended up contacting Dwight Wheless ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!) who set the legal big dogs in motion and 2b'd the senior. ( On a side note, the former SM tried to come back to meetings as a "parent, not a member" and the process started nearly from scratch again!) I could write a book about that one!

If there is anyway to avoid a 2B, an IG complaint, etc, do it! Do not rely on the good will or prudence of your leadership for support. Be prepared to suffer for several years. Get your own attorney in the process from the start, and keep every single document, E-Mail, note, witness statement, etc.. You may need to obtain a restraining order. You will need to justify every statement and position you have made or taken by regulation. I had to provide a brief to CAP as to where we had the authority to deny promotions to cadets that have not attended meetings!

The cases I have been involved in were not even borderline. Can you imagine what they will do to you if you tried to 2B a member for one of the authorized reasons, like illiteracy or perversion? ( This is Northern California, what constitutes illiteracy or perversion here anyway?)

Capt. Lord

[capchiro]

SAR, This is a voluntary organization and you can only give what you can give.  I would rather have you half time than not at all.  Think of ACP along the lines of a career.  Sometimes you can only go to CAP halftime, but other years you can go to CAP fulltime.  Think about your contribution over 20-30 years of time.  Any good squadron commander will work with you and keep you involved as much as you can be.  Wing and National don't come around and take roll to see who is or isn't attending the meetings.  When working with a voluntary organization, one must be flexible and take what one can.  I know some members will say you have a duty to make every meeting, but let's remember that there are some pilot types that make one meeting a month and are still contributing.  It truly depends upon your squadron commander and usually he/she will work with you.  If not, transfer to my squadron.

[capchiro]

CaptLord makes a good point about getting your own lawyer.  Most don't know it, but your squadron legal officer owes his/her allegiance to National and not the local commander.

[jimmydeanno]

I have found that the approving authorities tend to not want to do them, even for legitimate reasons, opting for the hope of non-renewal.

CASE 1 (true case): Cadet accuses CAP Seniors and cadets of sexual violation (a felony mind you), racism (some areas considered a hate crime) and favoritism (just not fair).  IG complaint filed.  CAP seniors & cadets accused are suspended for 90 days pending the outcome of the investigation. No response on findings of IG complaint, had to request that members involved were re-instated.  Cadet making accusations is still allowed to participate in CAP.

My thoughts:

1. If accusations were found to be false by IG, cadet should have been 2B'd for committing a crime (slander and libel), and making a false claim.

2. If accusations were found to be true by IG, the police should have been notified in the first place.  No report was ever filed with the authorities by CAP or this cadet's parents.  And if the accusations were true, why, as a parent would you continue to send your child to the meetings?  This leads me to thought 1.  

3. In either scenario, IMO, at least one person should have been 2b'd - but I was not the approving authority.

CASE 2(true case): CAP van stops at gas station on way to activity.  Male cadet gets out of van, goes into restroom and returns with a prophylactic.  Upon re-entry into the van, proceeds to give this item to a female cadet and tells her to take it so she can "F" the cadet next to her.

Case of sexual harassment and conduct unbecoming...

IG Investigation placed, no finding ever made. Female cadets parents withdraw cadet from program.

Needless to say, I am rather upset by the way 'issues' are handled, and wish I was the approving authority on these things.  But IMO those are two scenarios that would warrant a 2B for disciplinary reasons.

[Eclipse]

I have had a few experiences. in one , a cadet tried to run another cadet off the freeway with his car...twice, after being warned that murdering ones brother cadets was frowned upon....Fortunately, he voluntarily resigned before the 2B process could go through.

I have heard way too many stories like this, and view it as part of the problem.  I know that this seems like the easier way for everyone, but with no 2b in the jacket, and the terrible record keeping CAP has, there is nothing from keeping a member like this from coming back in a year to a different unit and causing more problems.

Especially in a case like this, better to handle it right away and close the issue for good.

We had a Senior Member go "little league dad" on us, and make death threats against  seniors, cadets , etc. He wrote letters to the President, the Air Force, Etc. CAP initially did not offer our Squadron much support, instead trying to do everything to blow us off. We ended up contacting Dwight Wheless ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!) who set the legal big dogs in motion and 2b'd the senior. ( On a side note, the former SM tried to come back to meetings as a "parent, not a member" and the process started nearly from scratch again!) I could write a book about that one!

Not to oversimplify this, but to me its an easy fix - 911.

And I would LOVE to read that book.  Sounds like you've had some real gems... 

[mikeylikey]

I have used the form for a member who requested resignation.  He decided he "hated" the Wing leadership and wanted no part of the program.  He later rejoined in another wing.

[ColonelJack]

My own experience with CAPF 2b is somewhat different -- I was almost on the receiving end of one.

In the mid 1980s, the squadron I belonged to went through a change of command for the third time in two years.  The founding CC had taken a job in another state (where he thrives in CAP today, good on him!) ... the next CC was transferred by his church to Saipan or somewhere like that ... and the fellow who took his place was a really nice guy -- just a lousy commander.  He decided to do things his way instead of by the regs, and with each successive change, I became more and more irate.  I was unit Admin, Personnel, PAO, and Deputy CC for Cadets all in one, and he tried to turn our CAP unit into the old Army unit he used to serve in.  He even promoted himself to captain and wore the bars, though he was still officially a 1st Lieutenant on the SMTLR.

When, after change upon change that directly violated regulations, he allowed a 35-year-old SM to wear Chief Warrant Officer insignia because the guy didn't want to be an officer, I told the CC (privately, politely, and respectfully) that he was in violation of regs, and which regs he was violating.  His response?  A 90-day suspension from unit activities -- for me -- in writing, copy to wing, copy to region, information copy to National HQ.  (Seems he didn't like being told these things.)  And if I said one more word -- one more word -- about "those [darn] regulations," I would be 2b'd.  He had the form filled out and signed ... just needed me to open my trap one more time to date it and send it off.

Rather than accept this sitting down, I wrote my own response to him -- copy to wing, copy to region, copy to National.  Within a week, a surprise IG inspection of the unit was conducted, and he was removed from command.  I was reinstated, and he was "encouraged to let his membership lapse."  He was also demoted to 2nd Lt for promoting himself.

Nice guy ... lousy commander.  And I almost ended up taking the fall for his misdeeds.

Five years later, I was named CC of the unit, where I served for six years before moving up to Group and then retiring.

Nice, huh?

Jack

[Pumbaa]

This is one of the more constructive and informative threads i have seen.. I really appreciate what is being.. and how... discussed...

So for me to put this to the lowest common denominator, and because no one else has said it...

2B or not 2B, that is the question!

The answer is... only as the last , of the most final possible resorts, and docment, document, document..

Did I say document?

[RogueLeader]

Your last transmission was garbled.  I do believe you said "Document"  Is this correct???  Please resend your last transmission.

[Major Carrales]

Thank Richard, I like to post meaningful threads whenever possible.

I have a problem with 2b'ing a cadet that can't show up for whatever reason.  Yes, I know the regs prescribe a set number of missed meetings, however, I chalk it up to Commander discretion.  Citing a problem that a person had with a 2b 25 years ago, I shutter to think that a cadet who's home life prevented his attendance would be "blacklisted" in CAP.  Suppose this cadet wants to return years later as a SM when they chart their own course and is "flagged."

I am more apt to let their membership lapse.

I would apply a 2b in the following circumstances...

1) CAP Officer/Cadet initiates violence, real threats of violence
2) Drug Usage
3) Theft of unit or personal property
4) Serious offense outside of CAP (child abuse, murder, assault, rape etc)
5) Anti-PAO- talking smack about the unit to the media or the like
6) most likely having been ordered to 2b someone by Group or Wing
7) blatant safety violations
8 ) after a long chain of due process for minor offenses such as meeting disruption (well documented)
9) failure to carry out a directive that leads to injury, loss of property or catastrophic failure of a program
10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here


The notion that these things are not to be taken lightly is my goal.

[Eclipse]

10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here

..such as...?   

[Major Carrales]

10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here

..such as...?   

False Demagoguery, Five Minutes of Hate, Room 101...you know, the dispicable stuff!!!