2017 Conference Registration

Started by MSG Mac, April 21, 2017, 06:16:28 AM

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jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere

Yes they have a travel allowance so that they can visit encampment, travel to units that are isolated from everyone else, and yes go to national level gatherings to conduct the business for which they were hired. Or would you rather the commanders at every level remain locked away in their ivory towers, wholly detached from the rank and file member as well as the rest of the organization?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Alaric

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere

Yes they have a travel allowance so that they can visit encampment, travel to units that are isolated from everyone else, and yes go to national level gatherings to conduct the business for which they were hired. Or would you rather the commanders at every level remain locked away in their ivory towers, wholly detached from the rank and file member as well as the rest of the organization?

First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Second, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer.  The membership should not be subsidizing it.  The "price" of command even at the local level is high, I have warned those who are looking to replace me of this so that they are prepared.  Will this eliminate some people, sure but that's what happens in the real world.  I'd like to be a pilot, but I know that given my current financial realities I will not be able to save enough for lessons.

jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Sounds like being hired to me.

QuoteSecond, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer. 

Personal opinion duly noted. My personal opinion is that we should have a larger pool of candidates for commander, not a smaller one. Even in a wing as large as Texas, there are usually only 2-3 candidates for wing commander; I don't want to see that number get smaller.

But back to the real topic, the fact that you only want wealthy retired individuals to be commanders has nothing to do with the value of conferences. I believe that the networking that goes on as well as the in person business that occurs makes the cost worth while. I personally will most likely attend at least part of the conference, if for no other reason than to see and talk to some old friends, make some new ones, and see one of my members be honored with a wing of-the-year award. I guess I won't be seeing you there.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Alaric

#63
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Sounds like being hired to me.

QuoteSecond, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer. 

Personal opinion duly noted. My personal opinion is that we should have a larger pool of candidates for commander, not a smaller one. Even in a wing as large as Texas, there are usually only 2-3 candidates for wing commander; I don't want to see that number get smaller.

But back to the real topic, the fact that you only want wealthy retired individuals to be commanders has nothing to do with the value of conferences. I believe that the networking that goes on as well as the in person business that occurs makes the cost worth while. I personally will most likely attend at least part of the conference, if for no other reason than to see and talk to some old friends, make some new ones, and see one of my members be honored with a wing of-the-year award. I guess I won't be seeing you there.

First no matter how you try to twist my words I did not in this thread nor have I ever been a proponent of only wealthy, retired people being commanders.  I am neither of those things and I am a commander (Squadron of course not Wing, Region or National)  I however do not expect the squadron to subsidize my activities because I believe that that is part of what I volunteered for, should there be a time I can no longer afford to participate at the level I feel appropriate for a commander I will step down.  I have no problem with the conferences or people going to them, as long as they are paying for them.  I've been to 2 National Conferences myself, and that in my opinion was 1 too many based on the value received for the value spent.  My issue at the beginning of this and now is that travel to conferences should not be subsidized, if people like yourself believe they have value then those people should have no problem paying their own way.  When the organization at least once a year sends out emails pleading for money, cutting costs on things like subsidizing travel should be a no brainer.

FW

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.


Our national conferences are self funded by registration/banquet fees, course fees, and sponsor fees.  Travel expenses by volunteer and corporate leadership are paid by our corporate (non appropriated) dollars.  How we spend our corporate budget is the responsibility of our National Commander and BoG.  It is an expense we've been willing to afford for decades, because our leadership has found value.  Ned has made an excellent argument for keeping the status quo.  I really don't think this is a reason why are membership numbers haven't  climbed.  That is another discussion...

CAPDCCMOM

#65
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

Spaceman3750

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

vorteks

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 03:35:31 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

If CAPTalk is such a waste of time, why do members of national staff and BoG read and answer questions here?

CAPDCCMOM

I take the point about working on my own level. However, at our own levels, these very attitudes are the problem. Spaceman, you say we have no control of these things. That is a dangerous thought. We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.

Sitting back and blindly following never let to anything good. This Nation was built on people dissenting and complaining. Back then you did it in a pub, today you do it online.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: vorteks on April 28, 2017, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 03:35:31 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

If CAPTalk is such a waste of time, why do members of national staff and BoG read and answer questions here?

I didn't say that it was a waste of time as a whole. I often see a valuable exchange of ideas here. I said that arguing until you're blue in the face about things you can't control is a waste of time - whether on CAPTalk or your Tuesday night meeting.

The bigger point was a renewed focus on providing high quality local programs in order to increase recruiting and retention. Please don't ignore that because you didn't like the second half of my comment.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
I take the point about working on my own level. However, at our own levels, these very attitudes are the problem. Spaceman, you say we have no control of these things. That is a dangerous thought. We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.

Sitting back and blindly following never let to anything good. This Nation was built on people dissenting and complaining. Back then you did it in a pub, today you do it online.

Maybe your comment about "Ivory Tower members" is actually the root of the issue here. Membership feels disconnected from their wing and region membership. This is probably a bunch of problems that are different in every wing. If we felt like we were on the same page as our executive leadership, maybe we would consider them our representative on the national stage, instead of someone who gets a "free" trip to San Antonio.

On not discussing that which I have no control, the balance is probably somewhere in the middle. I just only have so much energy to focus on issues, I'd rather focus it where it counts. Do I have opinions on lots of things? Sure. But when it comes to what I'm willing to fight for, that which I can actually influence is where I'll spend my energy fighting.

Ned

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.


Exactly.  The only reason we have conferences is because the rank and file support them by attending.  Literally.  If the "average member" didn't support them, they would not exist.  The "Ivory Tower Leadership" (which I suppose includes me, although I was a squadron-level guy for over 30 years) does not expend resources or assets on conferences.  The membership does.

It just seems a little mean-spirited to suggest that other members who find value in conferences should not be allowed to attend because some members question the value. 

FWIW, I'm headed up to the Pacific Region Conference this evening.  Happy to pay my own expenses, including my hotel, transportation, and meals.  Come by and say hi.

Alaric

#72
Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 04:08:45 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.


Exactly.  The only reason we have conferences is because the rank and file support them by attending.  Literally.  If the "average member" didn't support them, they would not exist.  The "Ivory Tower Leadership" (which I suppose includes me, although I was a squadron-level guy for over 30 years) does not expend resources or assets on conferences.  The membership does.

It just seems a little mean-spirited to suggest that other members who find value in conferences should not be allowed to attend because some members question the value. 

FWIW, I'm headed up to the Pacific Region Conference this evening.  Happy to pay my own expenses, including my hotel, transportation, and meals.  Come by and say hi.

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending. Also how can you say the leadership is not expending resources or assets when they are either being paid for or reimbursed for their travel. That money comes from dues and are indeed CAP assets. Once again speaking for myself I don't care how people choose to spend their own money but if the rank and file can pay for their own conferences so can everyone in command. After all they have value right?

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 04:52:04 PM

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending.

Really?  "disingenuous"? 

This is a thread about conferences.

Specifically, the CAP summer conference.  When hundreds of members get together for multiple purposes.  I suggest it is a little "disingenuous" to suggest that it is somehow invalid because only a small percentage of the membership attends.  Because that is the norm, not the exception.  The president is speaking at the NRA convention today.  What percentage of NRA members go to their national convention?  (Hint:  less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  My church meets biennially in a General Assembly.  What percentage of church members do you suppose attend the General Assembly?  (Hint: less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  Twice in her 35 year career in tech, my wife has been rewarded with a trip to CES in Las Vegas.  What percentage of tech employees do you suppose get to go to CES?  (etc., etc., etc.)

Literally hundreds of our "rank and file members" find enough value to spend thousands of dollars to attend.  Obviously, you and others don't want to go.  Again, it just seems a little mean-spirited that you would tell them they can't go.  Simply because you disagree about how they should spend their own money.  My suggestion is to "let it go," and let your colleagues make their own choices about their money and value received.

It sounds like what you really want to argue about is whether or not the Command Council, BoG, and CSAG should have their meetings at or near the same time as the conference.  That is certainly a worthy discussion, but probably deserves it's own thread.  As I mentioned, both the BoG and CSAG regularly meet by teleconference and, rarely, so does the Command Council.  And they also meet in person.  For which they have a travel budget, pretty much like every other major corporation in the world, including 501C3s like the Red Cross, Scouting, and the Salvation Army.  Reasonable minds can certainly differ about how often governing bodies should meet in person, but ultimately, it is their decision to make.  Ultimately the BoG decides budget items, and so far they see value in funding occasional in-person meetings.  Your disagreement notwithstanding.



FW

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

So there isn't a valid reason for our leadership to get a travel allowance to attend?

Actually, until the Air Force could no longer provide airlift to our membership, attendance to National Conferences went well over 1000 members.  Some years, closer to 2000 came to enjoy the event.  It would be nice if the BoG and CAP-USAF could find some way of making this happen again; then, maybe more could find "value" in it.  There is value in coming together face to face.  Would there be more value to the membership if CAP made it easier and more affordable to attend?

CAPDCCMOM

#75
^^^^ If I have to pay for, my room, meal, transportation, and cost for the event, they can as well.

Lead by example. If money is that tight at the Wing level and Squadron level, that we keep hearing about budget cuts for Programs. Then yes, divert their transportation budget and put it back in the Air or on Cadets.

I see no value in sitting and hearing the "Little Yellow Plane Story" for the umpteenth time. Give me real training or real education.

We bring things up and the "leadership" smiles, nods, and tells us how valuable we are. Then back to business as usual.

CAP is 15 years behind in technology, communcations, and we wonder why other agencies won't work with us. That is what needs to be spent on, not a travel budget.

SarDragon

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 07:03:58 PM
^^^^ If I have to pay for, my room, meal, transportation, and cost for the event, they can as well.

Lead by example. If money is that tight at the Wing level and Squadron level, that we keep hearing about budget cuts for Programs. Then yes, divert their transportation budget and put it back in the Air or on Cadets.

I see no value in sitting and hearing the "Little Yellow Plane Story" for the umpteenth time. Give me real training or real education.

We bring things up and the "leadership" smiles, nods, and tells us how valuable we are. Then back to business as usual.

CAP is 15 years behind in technology, communications, and we wonder why other agencies won't work with us. That is what needs to be spent on, not a travel budget.

You are not required, by nature of your position, required to attend. The folks that get the free ride are. This no different that other corporations.

Have you ever been to a National Conference? I attended the on in San Diego, in 2010. It was local for me, so it was easy to attend. I commuted every day, but I spent almost as much in gas and parking as the hotel room would have cost, so I'll consider that as a wash.

It was very worthwhile. There was real training and real education. I got to meet the folks you call "Ivory Tower members". Guess what? They are real people, just like you and me. I also got to put faces with a bunch of the folks who post on here.

They move it around the country, so it's in someone's regional area every year. Here's the list of locations back to 2002:

2016     Nashville, TN
2015     Orlando, FL
2014     Las Vegas, NV
2013    Denver, CO
2012     Baltimore, MD
2011     Louisville, KY
2010     San Diego, CA
2009     San Antonio, TX
2008     Kissimmee, FL
2007     Atlanta, GA
2006     Reno, NV
2005     St. Louis, MO
2004     Tampa, FL
2003     Las Vegas, NV
2002     Philadelphia, PA

As noted elsewhere, this year is back in San Antonio, and next year will be in Los Angeles. I'm going.

Also of note is that each of these locations is in, or close to, what's called a destination city. They have airports directly accessible (n0n-stop flights) from most other large and medium cities. They have hotels big enough to support the event and the guest load.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

EMT-83

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 04:06:46 PM... Membership feels disconnected from their wing and region membership...

If only there was a way to meet other members and those in leadership positions. Perhaps attend some seminars together, or sit together at a meal, or maybe belly up to the bar. Too bad there's nothing in place that allows that to happen.

Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 05:31:07 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 04:52:04 PM

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending.

Really?  "disingenuous"? 

This is a thread about conferences.

Specifically, the CAP summer conference.  When hundreds of members get together for multiple purposes.  I suggest it is a little "disingenuous" to suggest that it is somehow invalid because only a small percentage of the membership attends.  Because that is the norm, not the exception.  The president is speaking at the NRA convention today.  What percentage of NRA members go to their national convention?  (Hint:  less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  My church meets biennially in a General Assembly.  What percentage of church members do you suppose attend the General Assembly?  (Hint: less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  Twice in her 35 year career in tech, my wife has been rewarded with a trip to CES in Las Vegas.  What percentage of tech employees do you suppose get to go to CES?  (etc., etc., etc.)

Literally hundreds of our "rank and file members" find enough value to spend thousands of dollars to attend.  Obviously, you and others don't want to go.  Again, it just seems a little mean-spirited that you would tell them they can't go.  Simply because you disagree about how they should spend their own money.  My suggestion is to "let it go," and let your colleagues make their own choices about their money and value received.

It sounds like what you really want to argue about is whether or not the Command Council, BoG, and CSAG should have their meetings at or near the same time as the conference.  That is certainly a worthy discussion, but probably deserves it's own thread.  As I mentioned, both the BoG and CSAG regularly meet by teleconference and, rarely, so does the Command Council.  And they also meet in person.  For which they have a travel budget, pretty much like every other major corporation in the world, including 501C3s like the Red Cross, Scouting, and the Salvation Army.  Reasonable minds can certainly differ about how often governing bodies should meet in person, but ultimately, it is their decision to make.  Ultimately the BoG decides budget items, and so far they see value in funding occasional in-person meetings.  Your disagreement notwithstanding.

Ned, you keep putting words in my mouth.  I have no problem with the conferences or people attending them as long as they are paying their own way.  Our leadership does not, we the members pay for them.  That was the thrust of my original post and no matter how you try to twist it, is still the thrust of my argument. 

Alaric

Quote from: FW on April 28, 2017, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

So there isn't a valid reason for our leadership to get a travel allowance to attend?


In my opinion, no there is not, if the leadership had to pay their own way perhaps they'd be a little more concerned about the cost of this event and work to minimize it so who knows, more people could afford to come.