Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 23, 2017, 05:29:21 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Demotion Question
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print
Author Topic: Cadet Demotion Question  (Read 4917 times)
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 880
Unit: MER-NC-057

« on: April 19, 2017, 03:40:13 PM »

I find myself needing to demote a cadet and am turning to my colleagues on CAPTalk to verify whether my understanding of the regulations is correct.

After reading CAPR 52-16, I am left with the following impressions:

1) A commander does not need higher approval to demote a cadet.
2) Notification is only sent to the next echelon so they are not taken by surprise if the cadet decides to appeal the demotion.
3) The demotion will not actually be reflected in eServices since NHQ is not notified of it.
4) The only thing that the cadet needs to do to get a stripe back is to demonstrate satisfactory performance for a period of 60 days. This means that they do not have to retake tests, etc.
5) Each stripe lost requires an additional 60 day period of satisfactory performance to be earned back.

Are these impressions correct?
Logged
William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:40 PM »

That was my reading of the regs, as well as understanding. I've only ever seen one cadet get demoted...C/MSgt wearing a Mitchell ribbon. Still was allowed to go to an NCSA, and got in trouble there as well...
Logged
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 03:51:49 PM »

Off the top of my head, you can only take 2 achievements, or one achievement and one milestone.

I didn't know NHQ wasn't informed nor eServices updated.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 880
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 04:00:52 PM »

Off the top of my head, you can only take 2 achievements, or one achievement and one milestone.

The current 52-16 allows for a three step demotion (three achievements or two achievements and a milestone).

I didn't know NHQ wasn't informed nor eServices updated.

I was very surprised by this and want to make sure that I'm not missing some obscure paragraph in another publication that covers this.
Logged
William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 04:29:08 PM »

Just be sure that you have had documented counseling sessions with the cadet and their parent and given the cadet a path to improve and a date before take a stripe.  That should hopefully reduce any parental backlash.
Logged
TIger
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 09:54:36 AM »

Don't demote them 3 grades today, and 3 again tomorrow.  Even though the regulation doesn't prohibit it, Group CCs get all wound up.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 10,577

« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 10:59:59 AM »

On the practical side.

A CAPF 50 should be completed for the cadet.

Spelling out exactly what behavior caused the demotion.
Spelling out exactly what "satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award" means.

A new CAPF 50 should be completed at the end of each 60 day period when the cadet is either promoted or terminated.

Also please note.....That by the regulations (but maybe not common sense) the cadet could be eligible for promotion on the day the rank/achievement/milestone is re-earned.

Key to make this sort of thing work.

a.  Involve the parents.  Make sure they know why little Johnny is getting his stripes/pips taken away.
b.  Be absolutely honest with everyone.   Don't just do this as a way to make some problem cadet quit in stead of doing proper termination procedures. Make sure you are set realistic goals.  That you keep your end of the bargain if the cadet fulfills them.
c.  Understand that there are no provision to change your mind once you start the process.  Bust 2d Lt back to SMSgt....and it is 60 day per achievement/milestone.  You can't say a month down the road "Well he learned his lesson, lets promote him to Chief now and 2d Lt next month".  So...picking the right number of achievements/milestones is important.
d.  Make sure you got your ducks in a row.  DO THE FRIGGING PAPERWORK!  If/when the parents appeal or make an IG complain....make sure you can go to your commander with the facts (as you know them) so that they can make an informed decision.
e.  AND THIS IS IMPORTANT.   Be ready to accept that your decisions may be overturned by higher echelons.   Have a plan on how you are going to move on and make sure you don't punish the cadet for the wing commander's soft heart/head.

I've had to do this a couple of times.  And these rules made sure that they were more or less successful and with as little butt pain as possible.

Good Luck

 


Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 705

« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 11:45:48 AM »

On the practical side.

A CAPF 50 should be completed for the cadet.

Spelling out exactly what behavior caused the demotion.
Spelling out exactly what "satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award" means.

A new CAPF 50 should be completed at the end of each 60 day period when the cadet is either promoted or terminated.

Also please note.....That by the regulations (but maybe not common sense) the cadet could be eligible for promotion on the day the rank/achievement/milestone is re-earned.

Key to make this sort of thing work.

a.  Involve the parents.  Make sure they know why little Johnny is getting his stripes/pips taken away.
b.  Be absolutely honest with everyone.   Don't just do this as a way to make some problem cadet quit in stead of doing proper termination procedures. Make sure you are set realistic goals.  That you keep your end of the bargain if the cadet fulfills them.
c.  Understand that there are no provision to change your mind once you start the process.  Bust 2d Lt back to SMSgt....and it is 60 day per achievement/milestone.  You can't say a month down the road "Well he learned his lesson, lets promote him to Chief now and 2d Lt next month".  So...picking the right number of achievements/milestones is important.
d.  Make sure you got your ducks in a row.  DO THE FRIGGING PAPERWORK!  If/when the parents appeal or make an IG complain....make sure you can go to your commander with the facts (as you know them) so that they can make an informed decision.
e.  AND THIS IS IMPORTANT.   Be ready to accept that your decisions may be overturned by higher echelons.   Have a plan on how you are going to move on and make sure you don't punish the cadet for the wing commander's soft heart/head.

I've had to do this a couple of times.  And these rules made sure that they were more or less successful and with as little butt pain as possible.

Good Luck

I would also recommend having a conversation with your Group CC and CPO (if your Group doesn't have a CPO, then Wing DCP) about this before acting on the demotion.  These are the people that will be involved in any appeal so it is best to have them on board before going forward. 
Logged
coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,113

« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 11:53:11 AM »

Demotion is a pretty severe step.  Someone above said they saw a cadet demoted for wearing a ribbon they hadn't earned...  that seems a little silly to me...  more likely to go "hey, take that off"  of course if it was a willful violaton after verbal and written warnings.   Still seems a little trivial of a thing to me, but don't know the whole story, as usual.

My approach to demotion has always been to treat it as a fork in the road for this cadet's CAP career...  it shiuld be accompanied with (another) verbal and written counseling session...  if you take one path, the items completed on that path are built to address/correct whatever the deficiency was, restore trust, good graces, and integration back to the unit.  ChoosinG the other path leads directly down the hall, around the corner, and out the door (see ya!)  Structure it so that only those wo paths are available, and structure it so there can be no waffling and stagnation and endless hem hawing.

I have always found it useful to read in the next higher echelon anytime any adverse action is being taken.  Pretty darned unlikely that they will overturn it if they already knew about it and gave it the nod beforehand.
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 12:00:21 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...
Logged
coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,113

« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 12:54:58 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...

yeah i see it now, didn't read it right , before.

with that said, a milestone and 2 achievements would only get him down to SMSgt, right?
(depending on how long ago this happened)
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 02:01:49 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...

yeah i see it now, didn't read it right , before.

with that said, a milestone and 2 achievements would only get him down to SMSgt, right?
(depending on how long ago this happened)


Yea, iirc, he said he got smacked -2 and -3, gained 1 back. He was 2b'd after the NCSA.
Logged
raivo
Seasoned Member

Posts: 440
Unit: Migrant

« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2017, 12:40:22 AM »

C/MSgt wearing a Mitchell ribbon.

Of all the things someone could try and do that they shouldn't, I'm unable to fathom why they'd pick one which is obviously incorrect to anyone who happens to notice it.
Logged

1Lt, CAP
Capt, USAF
Recipient of a Mitchell Award Of Irrelevant Number

"No combat-ready unit has ever passed inspection. No inspection-ready unit has ever survived combat."
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2017, 10:12:50 AM »

C/MSgt wearing a Mitchell ribbon.

Of all the things someone could try and do that they shouldn't, I'm unable to fathom why they'd pick one which is obviously incorrect to anyone who happens to notice it.


Again, he didn't get busted down because of it. He was a Mitchell cadet who was busted down TWICE, and was wearing C/MSgt at NCSA.
Logged
CadetCrayonEater
Newbie

Posts: 4
Unit: PCR-NV-054

« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2017, 03:11:59 PM »

Sounds correct to me. I would just be careful to not get reported.
Logged
C/SrA Mudd
Suppy Officer
Cadet Advisory Council
Reno Composite Squadron
Nevada Wing
npfd505
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: PCR-CA-205

Inland Empire Group 3
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2017, 09:36:56 PM »

I will have to agree with my fellow experienced CP officers.  Demoting a cadet is a very serious event.  First and foremost it is the welfare and overall development of the cadet. 

This is a process.  Involvement of the cadet, cadet parents, and keeping higher HQ in the loop is key to success.  You MUST utilize the CAPF 50 process and establish a plan of action with specific goals and timelines for behavior modifications.  100% of the time, in my experience, the issue you have is also occurring at home (hence involvement with the cadet's parent in a team approach works very well).  The cadet needs to know specifically what is expected, why it's expected, and what are the consequences if behavior is not changed.  I follow a progressive discipline process similarly used by public employees because it documents well, encourages improved behavior, and usually keeps commanders happy because in the end you don't demote the cadet, they demote themselves. 

Be sure to remove emotion and first ask if you've done everything you could do to help this child...yes they are cadets, but in the end each is a developing child who needs council and mentoring rather than just demotions.   Demotions can be effective learning tools, but can also be very harmful if not done properly, devoid of emotion, and in the best interest in helping the cadet not punishing them.

Feel free to pm me for more help/advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
Paul Saba, Capt, CAP
Emergency Services Officer
Inland Empire Group 3
Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2017, 10:13:54 PM »

I will have to agree with my fellow experienced CP officers.  Demoting a cadet is a very serious event.  First and foremost it is the welfare and overall development of the cadet. 

Be sure to remove emotion and first ask if you've done everything you could do to help this child...yes they are cadets, but in the end each is a developing child who needs council and mentoring rather than just demotions.   Demotions can be effective learning tools, but can also be very harmful if not done properly, devoid of emotion, and in the best interest in helping the cadet not punishing them.

Feel free to pm me for more help/advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I completely agree.  Personally, I think demotions are the lousiest thing you can do, I think the practice should go away.  My experience is they usually have more negative effects than good.  What will happen is the cadet will probably regress further.  Also IMO, I see it as a form of public punishment, as a cadet once wearing blue shoulder boards and now back to enamel chevrons lets all his peers know he has been punished for something.  That cadet may start acting out more.   

OP there are other ways to handle these issues.  For one talk to the cadet and let him/her know are not performing at the level they are expected.  Does that require a demotion?  In some cases, that may require simply removal from a position and possibly suspension from activities until they make an improvement.  Delay promotions until they are ready to go to the next level.  You have to realize perfect improvement will not happen overnight.  You need to have some reasonable expectations to filter out standard kid rambunctiousness to actual behavior problems.

Usually kids will act out due to other issues.  Sometimes it is an insecurity issue and they do things to be accepted and they will take the negative route sometimes.  I have seen it many times as a cadet.  There is always the goofball class clown.  The goal is to get them to take ownership of the unit and make a clear path for there success.  Not all cadets are going act like perfect little angles all of the time.  You have to accept that and know how to dial it back.  Before taking a negative approach, it might behoove you to investigate further.  In some cases it may not involve CAP.  It maybe a lash out to some other underlying issue.
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,615
Unit: of issue

« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2017, 10:15:43 AM »

I completely agree.  Personally, I think demotions are the lousiest thing you can do, I think the practice should go away.  My experience is they usually have more negative effects than good.  What will happen is the cadet will probably regress further.  Also IMO, I see it as a form of public punishment, as a cadet once wearing blue shoulder boards and now back to enamel chevrons lets all his peers know he has been punished for something.  That cadet may start acting out more. 

If you are doing things correctly, the demotion is several steps into a progressive series of disciplinary steps that generally starts with verbal corrections followed by verbal counseling and written counseling.  Its not a "one and done" kind of thing.

And the intent is that a demotion is a 60, 90 or 120-ish day (corresponding to 1, 2 or 3 grade demotion) "course correction."  A three-grade demotion is a big, big deal.  There are way, way more steps in the process beforehand, if you're doing it right. Because after demotion, without improvement, comes termination. So you better be prepared for "either improvement  or termination" when you demote a cadet, otherwise, you're going to be walking into a swamp with loafers.

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,905

« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2017, 10:58:37 AM »

Since we keep revisiting this...

I can't imagine an infraction so heinous as deserving a 3-click demotion, or even a demotion down past a Milestone,
where the cadet wouldn't be terminated, and as NIN says, this would be after already employing progressive
discipline before that.

One click gets attention, but dropping a cadet from an Officer to an NCO again, including, presumably the pain of sewing,
etc., seems extreme, and if the cadet is that much of an issue, doubtful he'd be salvageable.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 11:02:46 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043

« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2017, 11:33:11 AM »

I do not have a vested interest in the situation (or the issue being discussed at hand).   I fully concur that  though the youngsters we work with are called "cadets", they are still children that are in development.   Would like to flip the discussion a bit from "demotion" to "promotion".   Why did this cadet get promoted in the first place?   Was it because of demonstration of leadership skills, behavior or attitude???   Was it because he simply had all the boxes checked with the time frame for promotion???  Did the Squadron Commander mentor the cadet???  We may do our youngsters a great disservice in promoting them too early in their development personally and/or professionally -- just a thought.
Logged
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Demotion Question
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.276 seconds with 21 queries.