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April 28, 2017, 07:47:51 PM
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Demotion Question
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NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 862
Unit: MER-NC-057

« on: April 19, 2017, 03:40:13 PM »

I find myself needing to demote a cadet and am turning to my colleagues on CAPTalk to verify whether my understanding of the regulations is correct.

After reading CAPR 52-16, I am left with the following impressions:

1) A commander does not need higher approval to demote a cadet.
2) Notification is only sent to the next echelon so they are not taken by surprise if the cadet decides to appeal the demotion.
3) The demotion will not actually be reflected in eServices since NHQ is not notified of it.
4) The only thing that the cadet needs to do to get a stripe back is to demonstrate satisfactory performance for a period of 60 days. This means that they do not have to retake tests, etc.
5) Each stripe lost requires an additional 60 day period of satisfactory performance to be earned back.

Are these impressions correct?
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William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,935
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2017, 03:44:40 PM »

That was my reading of the regs, as well as understanding. I've only ever seen one cadet get demoted...C/MSgt wearing a Mitchell ribbon. Still was allowed to go to an NCSA, and got in trouble there as well...
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,562

« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2017, 03:51:49 PM »

Off the top of my head, you can only take 2 achievements, or one achievement and one milestone.

I didn't know NHQ wasn't informed nor eServices updated.
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"Anyone can hold the helm when the seas are calm ... leadership is about weathering the storm."

The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 862
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2017, 04:00:52 PM »

Off the top of my head, you can only take 2 achievements, or one achievement and one milestone.

The current 52-16 allows for a three step demotion (three achievements or two achievements and a milestone).

I didn't know NHQ wasn't informed nor eServices updated.

I was very surprised by this and want to make sure that I'm not missing some obscure paragraph in another publication that covers this.
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William Hess, Maj, CAP
Tar River Actual
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 590

« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2017, 04:29:08 PM »

Just be sure that you have had documented counseling sessions with the cadet and their parent and given the cadet a path to improve and a date before take a stripe.  That should hopefully reduce any parental backlash.
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TIger
Recruit

Posts: 9

« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 09:54:36 AM »

Don't demote them 3 grades today, and 3 again tomorrow.  Even though the regulation doesn't prohibit it, Group CCs get all wound up.


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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,548

« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 10:59:59 AM »

On the practical side.

A CAPF 50 should be completed for the cadet.

Spelling out exactly what behavior caused the demotion.
Spelling out exactly what "satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award" means.

A new CAPF 50 should be completed at the end of each 60 day period when the cadet is either promoted or terminated.

Also please note.....That by the regulations (but maybe not common sense) the cadet could be eligible for promotion on the day the rank/achievement/milestone is re-earned.

Key to make this sort of thing work.

a.  Involve the parents.  Make sure they know why little Johnny is getting his stripes/pips taken away.
b.  Be absolutely honest with everyone.   Don't just do this as a way to make some problem cadet quit in stead of doing proper termination procedures. Make sure you are set realistic goals.  That you keep your end of the bargain if the cadet fulfills them.
c.  Understand that there are no provision to change your mind once you start the process.  Bust 2d Lt back to SMSgt....and it is 60 day per achievement/milestone.  You can't say a month down the road "Well he learned his lesson, lets promote him to Chief now and 2d Lt next month".  So...picking the right number of achievements/milestones is important.
d.  Make sure you got your ducks in a row.  DO THE FRIGGING PAPERWORK!  If/when the parents appeal or make an IG complain....make sure you can go to your commander with the facts (as you know them) so that they can make an informed decision.
e.  AND THIS IS IMPORTANT.   Be ready to accept that your decisions may be overturned by higher echelons.   Have a plan on how you are going to move on and make sure you don't punish the cadet for the wing commander's soft heart/head.

I've had to do this a couple of times.  And these rules made sure that they were more or less successful and with as little butt pain as possible.

Good Luck

 


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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 590

« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 11:45:48 AM »

On the practical side.

A CAPF 50 should be completed for the cadet.

Spelling out exactly what behavior caused the demotion.
Spelling out exactly what "satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement or award" means.

A new CAPF 50 should be completed at the end of each 60 day period when the cadet is either promoted or terminated.

Also please note.....That by the regulations (but maybe not common sense) the cadet could be eligible for promotion on the day the rank/achievement/milestone is re-earned.

Key to make this sort of thing work.

a.  Involve the parents.  Make sure they know why little Johnny is getting his stripes/pips taken away.
b.  Be absolutely honest with everyone.   Don't just do this as a way to make some problem cadet quit in stead of doing proper termination procedures. Make sure you are set realistic goals.  That you keep your end of the bargain if the cadet fulfills them.
c.  Understand that there are no provision to change your mind once you start the process.  Bust 2d Lt back to SMSgt....and it is 60 day per achievement/milestone.  You can't say a month down the road "Well he learned his lesson, lets promote him to Chief now and 2d Lt next month".  So...picking the right number of achievements/milestones is important.
d.  Make sure you got your ducks in a row.  DO THE FRIGGING PAPERWORK!  If/when the parents appeal or make an IG complain....make sure you can go to your commander with the facts (as you know them) so that they can make an informed decision.
e.  AND THIS IS IMPORTANT.   Be ready to accept that your decisions may be overturned by higher echelons.   Have a plan on how you are going to move on and make sure you don't punish the cadet for the wing commander's soft heart/head.

I've had to do this a couple of times.  And these rules made sure that they were more or less successful and with as little butt pain as possible.

Good Luck

I would also recommend having a conversation with your Group CC and CPO (if your Group doesn't have a CPO, then Wing DCP) about this before acting on the demotion.  These are the people that will be involved in any appeal so it is best to have them on board before going forward. 
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coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,086

« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 11:53:11 AM »

Demotion is a pretty severe step.  Someone above said they saw a cadet demoted for wearing a ribbon they hadn't earned...  that seems a little silly to me...  more likely to go "hey, take that off"  of course if it was a willful violaton after verbal and written warnings.   Still seems a little trivial of a thing to me, but don't know the whole story, as usual.

My approach to demotion has always been to treat it as a fork in the road for this cadet's CAP career...  it shiuld be accompanied with (another) verbal and written counseling session...  if you take one path, the items completed on that path are built to address/correct whatever the deficiency was, restore trust, good graces, and integration back to the unit.  ChoosinG the other path leads directly down the hall, around the corner, and out the door (see ya!)  Structure it so that only those wo paths are available, and structure it so there can be no waffling and stagnation and endless hem hawing.

I have always found it useful to read in the next higher echelon anytime any adverse action is being taken.  Pretty darned unlikely that they will overturn it if they already knew about it and gave it the nod beforehand.
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Майор Хаткевич
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Posts: 5,935
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 12:00:21 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...
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coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,086

« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 12:54:58 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...

yeah i see it now, didn't read it right , before.

with that said, a milestone and 2 achievements would only get him down to SMSgt, right?
(depending on how long ago this happened)
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Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,935
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 02:01:49 PM »

Coudano, he was a Mitchell recipient, demoted to 6 stripes...Not for wearing it. Not sure what for, but he was a general troublemaker. Snuck out of an NCSA, propped up a door, and went into town to get a tattoo...

yeah i see it now, didn't read it right , before.

with that said, a milestone and 2 achievements would only get him down to SMSgt, right?
(depending on how long ago this happened)


Yea, iirc, he said he got smacked -2 and -3, gained 1 back. He was 2b'd after the NCSA.
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