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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Every CTWG cadet to receive a CAP Achievement award...
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Author Topic: Every CTWG cadet to receive a CAP Achievement award...  (Read 3330 times)
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 712

« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2017, 02:31:37 PM »

Achievement Award for everyone just for breathing just cheapens all CAP awards.  Not a very smart move.

Right, and isn't that intended to be an individual award? I would think that a Unit Citation would be more appropriate...

The problem is the Unit Citation has to be approved all the way up to National, Col Chapman can just decide to give everyone an Achievement Award
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 712

« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2017, 02:33:49 PM »

We are officially an "everybody gets a trophy" organization now. The Cadets that believed in the Core Values will lose morale and leave.  Then we are left with the snowflakes. I sure hope they can find buyers for all these Cessnas in a few years.

Prepare the dirge and for whom the bells toll.

If you're basing your statement on this event, that should be CT Wing is now officially an "everybody gets a trophy" organization now
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2017, 03:21:37 PM »

^^^^wrong, I say the organization.  This sets the precedent.  This one Wings actions makes us EGAT
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 712

« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2017, 04:21:23 PM »

^^^^wrong, I say the organization.  This sets the precedent.  This one Wings actions makes us EGAT

First, one wing does not set precedent for another.  Second, we've been giving the Member Ribbon to every Senior Member for years, so I guess that precedent was already established
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,102

« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2017, 05:07:09 PM »

^^^^wrong, I say the organization.  This sets the precedent.  This one Wings actions makes us EGAT

First, one wing does not set precedent for another.  Second, we've been giving the Member Ribbon to every Senior Member for years, so I guess that precedent was already established
On #2: The MEMBERSHIP Ribbon is awarded AFTER completing Level 1, not for being a senior member. Every senior member needs to complete Level 1, so every senior member has it, except those who have not completed Level 1.
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 712

« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2017, 05:59:03 PM »

^^^^wrong, I say the organization.  This sets the precedent.  This one Wings actions makes us EGAT

First, one wing does not set precedent for another.  Second, we've been giving the Member Ribbon to every Senior Member for years, so I guess that precedent was already established
On #2: The MEMBERSHIP Ribbon is awarded AFTER completing Level 1, not for being a senior member. Every senior member needs to complete Level 1, so every senior member has it, except those who have not completed Level 1.

Agreed, but since completing Level 1 is about as difficult as tying your shoes it is to me a distinction without a difference
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HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 39
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2017, 07:21:23 PM »

The Membership ribbon is much more akin to a Cadet Program achievement ribbon (Curry comes to mind), than it is to a personal decoration. If you look at what rough active duty equivalents are awarded for, the Membership ribbon is roughly the parallel of the Air Force Training Ribbon and the CAP Achievement Award to the Air Force Achievement Medal. One is awarded for completion of basic entry training analogous to our Level 1 training, the other for sustained achievement in the execution of one's duties above the level normally expected.

I agree with the side of setting a dangerous precedent. The more easily you give out awards in one area, the more easily they are given out in others. People move, people change commands. People go to activities in other wings and word spreads quickly. Then it's monkey see, monkey do. Cadets do not deserve an Achievement Award simply for being cadets. That's what the cadet achievements are for. Hell, that's what having the proud title of Civil Air Patrol Cadet is for. Just my opinion as a long time Cadet turned mil NCO turned CAP SM.

That being said, the CTWG/CC has the authority to give these awards. So those in CTWG will say "Yes, sir." and carry out his lawful orders.
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Semper Fidelis
Alaric
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Posts: 712

« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2017, 07:26:10 PM »

The Membership ribbon is much more akin to a Cadet Program achievement ribbon (Curry comes to mind), than it is to a personal decoration. If you look at what rough active duty equivalents are awarded for, the Membership ribbon is roughly the parallel of the Air Force Training Ribbon and the CAP Achievement Award to the Air Force Achievement Medal. One is awarded for completion of basic entry training analogous to our Level 1 training, the other for sustained achievement in the execution of one's duties above the level normally expected.

I agree with the side of setting a dangerous precedent. The more easily you give out awards in one area, the more easily they are given out in others. People move, people change commands. People go to activities in other wings and word spreads quickly. Then it's monkey see, monkey do. Cadets do not deserve an Achievement Award simply for being cadets. That's what the cadet achievements are for. Hell, that's what having the proud title of Civil Air Patrol Cadet is for. Just my opinion as a long time Cadet turned mil NCO turned CAP SM.

That being said, the CTWG/CC has the authority to give these awards. So those in CTWG will say "Yes, sir." and carry out his lawful orders.

Totally disagree on precedent setting, even within wings there can be vast difference in the award of Achievement Awards.  I have been a member of Wings that haven't done Unit Citations in years and others that do them every 2 or 3.  It is what is is, if anyone has a real problem with it, complain up the CTWG CC's chain of command
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etodd
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Posts: 662

« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2017, 10:28:18 PM »

" ... To qualify, a cadet must be a member of CTWG as of Saturday, May 20 as reflected in eServices.... "

So you can join the week before. Are the Recruiters using this as an incentive?
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Storm Chaser
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Posts: 2,663

« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2017, 10:44:55 PM »

End of tour awards are not meant to recognize every member regardless of accomplishments; they're meant to recognized a member's accomplishments at the end of their tour of duty.

CAPR 39-3 criteria for awarding the CAP Achievement Award is clear: a member must have performed "outstanding service to the unit, group or wing." Merely belonging to a unit does not mean a member has met that criteria. Commanders do not have the authority to waive the criteria either. To do so, simply devalues the award and sets a bad precedent for others to follow.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 637

« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 10:18:57 AM »

End of tour awards are not meant to recognize every member regardless of accomplishments; they're meant to recognized a member's accomplishments at the end of their tour of duty.

CAPR 39-3 criteria for awarding the CAP Achievement Award is clear: a member must have performed "outstanding service to the unit, group or wing." Merely belonging to a unit does not mean a member has met that criteria. Commanders do not have the authority to waive the criteria either. To do so, simply devalues the award and sets a bad precedent for others to follow.

You are absolutely correct but unfortunately it is up to the CC to determine what "outstanding service to the unit, group, or wing" actually means.  This Wing CC is obviously very liberal with the interpretation of "outstanding service."
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 11:30:58 AM »

End of tour awards are not meant to recognize every member regardless of accomplishments; they're meant to recognized a member's accomplishments at the end of their tour of duty.

CAPR 39-3 criteria for awarding the CAP Achievement Award is clear: a member must have performed "outstanding service to the unit, group or wing." Merely belonging to a unit does not mean a member has met that criteria. Commanders do not have the authority to waive the criteria either. To do so, simply devalues the award and sets a bad precedent for others to follow.

You are absolutely correct but unfortunately it is up to the CC to determine what "outstanding service to the unit, group, or wing" actually means.  This Wing CC is obviously very liberal with the interpretation of "outstanding service."


Hey, keeping a pulse and breathing is hard at times. Showing up to meetings? That's a weekly goal accomplishment.
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 11:35:50 AM »

^^^ But nothing was ever said about attendance in this new Snowflake Achievement Award. This was simply for breathing and pay dues within te last 12 months.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,767

« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2017, 11:40:22 AM »

I have 2 of these. Both were earned, not given, for directing 2 different projects that were conducted over the course of about a year. Giving away personal decorations is contrary to the intent of the award and decreases its value in the eyes of the membership.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
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Shieldel
Member

Posts: 78
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2017, 11:51:10 AM »

So those in CTWG will say "Yes, sir." and carry out his lawful orders.

We don't fall under the UCMJ, we're all volunteers in a paramilitary setting. That's why there's backlash of us being "fake military" sometimes. We -CAN- vote with our feet, as opposed to "real military" where yes, you can be court martialed for even trying to do the same
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 637

« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2017, 12:10:02 PM »

Honestly this kind of stuff has been happening in the real military for decades too.  When I was deploying to the big sand box 20 years ago few medals were handed out.  Now Bronze Stars are like candy for many who did less and certainly were not in harm's way.  Just part of the culture of everyone deserves an award.  I definitely do not like it.
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HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 39
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2017, 04:32:56 PM »

So those in CTWG will say "Yes, sir." and carry out his lawful orders.

We don't fall under the UCMJ, we're all volunteers in a paramilitary setting. That's why there's backlash of us being "fake military" sometimes. We -CAN- vote with our feet, as opposed to "real military" where yes, you can be court martialed for even trying to do the same

You're right, but the expectation has always been that while you're here you will obey appropriate orders. You play by the rules or you don't play.
We are not the Red Cross or the Boy Scouts, not to say that those organizations are any less noble. However, they are not military organizations in any way. They use titles such as Leader, Director, or Manager for their members in charge because they direct the activities of those subordinate to them.
We, however, are the Civil Air Patrol, the civilian Auxiliary of the United States Air Force. We have a chain of command and a military structure for a reason. We use the title Commander, because that is what our leaders do, they command their units. They issue orders to their subordinates to accomplish the mission. Our members are required to obey those orders or they are free to find other opportunities elsewhere.
If you want the "fake military" backlash to lessen, try acting like a military professional when you're wearing the CAP uniform. It's not about saluting or what ribbons you wear on your chest, either. It's about mission accomplishment. It's about discipline. It's about troop welfare and espirit de corps. It's about being part of the Air Force team. If you don't want to be part of that team, don't want to say "Yes, sir." and carry out lawful orders, don't want to be part of a military organization, then leave. Vote with your feet and find elsewhere to be of service.
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Semper Fidelis
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 78
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2017, 05:25:06 PM »

So those in CTWG will say "Yes, sir." and carry out his lawful orders.

We don't fall under the UCMJ, we're all volunteers in a paramilitary setting. That's why there's backlash of us being "fake military" sometimes. We -CAN- vote with our feet, as opposed to "real military" where yes, you can be court martialed for even trying to do the same

You're right, but the expectation has always been that while you're here you will obey appropriate orders. You play by the rules or you don't play.
We are not the Red Cross or the Boy Scouts, not to say that those organizations are any less noble. However, they are not military organizations in any way. They use titles such as Leader, Director, or Manager for their members in charge because they direct the activities of those subordinate to them.
We, however, are the Civil Air Patrol, the civilian Auxiliary of the United States Air Force. We have a chain of command and a military structure for a reason. We use the title Commander, because that is what our leaders do, they command their units. They issue orders to their subordinates to accomplish the mission. Our members are required to obey those orders or they are free to find other opportunities elsewhere.
If you want the "fake military" backlash to lessen, try acting like a military professional when you're wearing the CAP uniform. It's not about saluting or what ribbons you wear on your chest, either. It's about mission accomplishment. It's about discipline. It's about troop welfare and espirit de corps. It's about being part of the Air Force team. If you don't want to be part of that team, don't want to say "Yes, sir." and carry out lawful orders, don't want to be part of a military organization, then leave. Vote with your feet and find elsewhere to be of service.

Beautifully well put, I concede. HAHA I got nothing to respond to that. You make very good points. I'm just trying to enlist myself. I got a medical waiver consult coming up next week at a civilian doctor. Went to MEPS in December, was denied for eczema. Been waiting for a doctor's appointment through the USAF medical consult list ever since.
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,040

« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2017, 05:26:06 PM »

Now that Pandora's Box has been opened, I certainly would like see some form of annotation/clarification/standardization across the organization regarding recognition and awards.   Been around for a couple of decades...and one thing is obvious regarding recognition of members: Not all wings/regions are created equally.   When I compare my ribbons and attachments with others in my field, I scratch my head and wonder what in the blue blazes have I or haven't I done to not have as much "bling" as some of my peers --- and they wonder the same thing ;)   I received end of the term awards --- some of them get end of the year awards.  For example: Put in 6 years as a Wing or Region Chaplain - 1 award/1 attachment vs 6 awards/6 attachments,  Oh...not doing it for the piece of ribbon/attachment or certificate -- but wish that the organization doesn't let "Limbo" be played in our wings and regions.   
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 637

« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2017, 06:39:46 PM »

Now that Pandora's Box has been opened, I certainly would like see some form of annotation/clarification/standardization across the organization regarding recognition and awards.   Been around for a couple of decades...and one thing is obvious regarding recognition of members: Not all wings/regions are created equally.   When I compare my ribbons and attachments with others in my field, I scratch my head and wonder what in the blue blazes have I or haven't I done to not have as much "bling" as some of my peers --- and they wonder the same thing ;)   I received end of the term awards --- some of them get end of the year awards.  For example: Put in 6 years as a Wing or Region Chaplain - 1 award/1 attachment vs 6 awards/6 attachments,  Oh...not doing it for the piece of ribbon/attachment or certificate -- but wish that the organization doesn't let "Limbo" be played in our wings and regions.

The same can be said of the military.  Some units/branches are more generous with awards than others.  It stinks and I wish it wasn't that way but I don't see it changing any time soon for CAP or the military.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Every CTWG cadet to receive a CAP Achievement award...
 


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