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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: What's with the gray epaulets??
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Author Topic: What's with the gray epaulets??  (Read 2887 times)
LATORRECA
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Posts: 164

« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2017, 09:02:45 PM »

@nedd 👏👏👍

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Chaplaindon
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Posts: 231

« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2017, 11:52:55 AM »

I've been around CAP long enough to remember the days (in the 80s) when we wore navy shoulder marks with "CAP" embroidered on them ... then thanks to the unfortunate actions of a CAP general officer we were all punished. First, it was the addition of horrid maroon and white "loops" that said "CAP" worn on the service coat beside the metal grade insignia, then the equally atrocious "Berry Boards" (also "goofy-grape" colored) ... I agree the gray shoulder marks (with "US" cutouts) are a distinct improvement, albeit, I regret the actions of the ONE who forced them (and their predecessors) on the good, hard-working, membership of CAP.

I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 12:02:52 PM by Chaplaindon » Logged
Rev. Don Brown, Ch., Lt Col, CAP (Ret.)
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,743

« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2017, 12:26:06 PM »

I've been around CAP long enough to remember the days (in the 80s) when we wore navy shoulder marks with "CAP" embroidered on them ... then thanks to the unfortunate actions of a CAP general officer we were all punished. First, it was the addition of horrid maroon and white "loops" that said "CAP" worn on the service coat beside the metal grade insignia, then the equally atrocious "Berry Boards" (also "goofy-grape" colored) ... I agree the gray shoulder marks (with "US" cutouts) are a distinct improvement, albeit, I regret the actions of the ONE who forced them (and their predecessors) on the good, hard-working, membership of CAP.

I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.

Leave the grey epaulette sleeves on the shirts, add grey braid on the sleeve of the service uniform in place of the blue, go back to metal insignia on the service coat and add grey loops like the old Army combat leader loops. Or just leave it all alone. It's distinctive and it's "our own".
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Strup
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2017, 12:27:52 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.
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zippity
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2017, 03:56:08 PM »

The only quibble I have with the corporate uniforms is that so many of them don't have headwear equivalent to their AF style counterparts. It feels unbalanced somehow.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2017, 04:20:19 PM »

The only quibble I have with the corporate uniforms is that so many of them don't have headwear equivalent to their AF style counterparts. It feels unbalanced somehow.


Those are a whole other discussion.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2017, 04:37:10 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.

Exactly. Like I said, it's distinctive and it's ours.
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Strup
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LTC Don
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2017, 06:50:28 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the uniforms are set up now.


Wasn't anything wrong with them before, either....   >:D


 ;)
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Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2017, 04:42:18 AM »

I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.



I understand I am in the minority, but I kind of liked the maroon shoulder marks.  Especially nice on the light blue shirt.

And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?

It WAS an aspirational goal. But not any more. Not when 1/3 - 1/2 of the membership cannot aspire to it by regulation.

CAP really needs a CAP uniform that everybody wears, not one for some and another for others.
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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

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shuman14
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2017, 10:17:12 AM »

Quote
I wish CAP could work out a more attractive solution, more akin to what I/we wear in the USCG Auxiliary: distinctive but attractive.

I have said several times that it would not be impossible to get the three initials "CAP" superimposed on the center of all rank insignia in either Blue or Red enamel.

The US Coast Guard Auxiliary has done this for years with their "A" on the insignia in Red or Blue based on elected or appointed office held. For Field/Working uniforms it's now simply an embroidered "A" in black thread on the sewn on insignia regardless of appointed or elected office.

Quote
add grey braid on the sleeve of the service uniform in place of the blue, go back to metal insignia on the service coat

That is also a simple and excellent idea.
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Joseph J. Clune
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ColonelJack
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« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2017, 07:16:18 AM »

I've often suggested (never formally, since I don't want to open that particular can of worms) that we do a modern version of the World War II CAP uniforms. 

In other words, a standard Air Force officer's service coat, but with gray epaulets.  To those, we pin metal rank.

And I think the idea of gray officer braid to replace the blue on the sleeves is a fabulous idea.

For the World War II reference, check out the red epaulets and officer braid on the service coats of that era.

Distinctive?  It couldn't be any more distinctive.

Jack
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Lt. Col. Jack Bagley, Civil Air Patrol
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ColonelJack
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« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2017, 07:21:57 AM »

I found some random pictures of these dreadful things online.  I hated wearing them.  It was humiliating, especially on the service coat.  Be thankful for the grey.



I understand I am in the minority, but I kind of liked the maroon shoulder marks.  Especially nice on the light blue shirt.

And reminded me of our heritage - the red shoulder straps from WWII.  I wonder if our earliest members thought they were being disrespected by the Army Air Corps because of the color of the shoulder straps.

My guess is that they were just grateful to serve and wear the (modified) uniform of their country.  Kind of an aspirational goal for us, wouldn't you say?

It WAS an aspirational goal. But not any more. Not when 1/3 - 1/2 of the membership cannot aspire to it by regulation.

CAP really needs a CAP uniform that everybody wears, not one for some and another for others.

The problem, of course, is that the Air Force has the final say on who fills their uniforms, and what those people should look like.

The Air Force doesn't want the "fat 'n fuzzies" to wear their uniforms.  I seriously doubt that position is going to change in the far term, much less the near term.

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

The berry boards?   I still have my major's rank on maroon, along with a pair of the original "circlets" that preceded them.  Wouldn't part with them for the world.  (Wouldn't ever want to wear them again, either.)

Jack
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Lt. Col. Jack Bagley, Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
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Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.
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PHall
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« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2017, 10:26:28 AM »

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.
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SouthernCross
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« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2017, 10:38:35 AM »

ColonelJack:

I would love to see "the original 'circlets' that preceded them." Do you have a picture of them you could post?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2017, 10:43:58 AM »

Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.

Fair enough, to an extent, however before, during, or after, the USAF reviewed it, directed changes
instead of prohibiting it, and then likely literally never thought of it again.

The time to disavow it would have been when it, in your words, "appeared", not after members spend hundreds
of dollars buying it, especially considering the number of problems it solved, not the least of which was many
high-visibility staff no longer appearing in the USAF-style inappropriately, which many just simply started doing
again the next day.
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2017, 10:50:01 AM »

not the least of which was many high-visibility staff no longer appearing in the USAF-style inappropriately, which many just simply started doing again the next day.

A lack of personal integrity on the part of some high-visibility personnel is not a reason to create a new uniform.

As you would say, that's simply avoiding the actual problem.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2017, 11:10:41 AM »

Solving integrity mismatches was a side-benefit, not the justification.
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ColonelJack
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2017, 12:17:09 PM »

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.
 

I'm sorry, Bob ... I didn't mean to imply that I had any kind of long-withheld information about the CSU.  When I say "we had our backsides spanked" I should have continued that they were "spanked" by some members of the old NEC that didn't like HWSRN and the uniform, and thus voted to get rid of it, despite the fact that many members (myself included) had purchased it - even when we still qualified for AF uniforms.  I recall hearing that the CSU was okayed by the Air Force - after the changes that got rid of hard rank, anyway.

Quote
And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

I hope you don't mean me, old friend ... I ain't no troll.

Jack
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Lt. Col. Jack Bagley, Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
ColonelJack
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2017, 12:20:02 PM »

While I do concur 100% that CAP needs a service uniform that everybody - fit, fat, or fuzzy - can wear, we've already had our backsides spanked regarding the CSU (and I know, the fuzzies couldn't wear it).  It was a pretty good kit, but I believe its downfall was multi-fold:  the way it was introduced, by whom it was introduced (HWSRN), and the fact that it was a pretty blatant end-run around the Air Force to get metal rank back were its major problems, in my (never-to-be-humble) opinion.

I'd love to know the source for your information.  The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF, including incorporating changes as directed.

All evidence publicly available indicates this was an internal decision most likely intended to purge the last remnants of HWSRN.

FWIW, I think red, not maroon, red epaulet sleeves would be wholly appropriate as legacy to the historic uniforms, at least there
is linage vs. the gray.  I'd also have no issue moving to a khaki-based uniform for all, or maybe for adult members, for the same reasons.

And now I'm feeding the troll, so well played.

Cite please on your "The uniform was fully vetted and approved by the USAF." statement. 
The changes came after the Air Force saw this uniform that appeared all of a sudden.

And I (along with many other members) was given to understand that after the changes the AF requested - epaulets in place of hard rank, CAP instead of US on the lapels - the CSU was given their thumbs-up.  Grudgingly, perhaps, but thumbs-up.  Members of the NEC were the culprits in its downfall.

I still have mine, should it ever be approved again.  (Which it will be, right after I'm named the next host of Jeopardy! when Alex Trebek retires.  Ha.)

Jack
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Lt. Col. Jack Bagley, Civil Air Patrol
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: What's with the gray epaulets??
 


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