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Devil Doc
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Unit: MER-NC-162

« on: April 11, 2017, 01:34:56 PM »

Does anyone remember if the Specialty Track criteria was Grandfathered? It looks Like I wont be able to make Major for my Master Rating due to having to attend the Inland SAR Planning Course, or SAR Management Course don't think my scheduled allows me to attend them.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2017, 02:22:31 PM »

so. I did some research and.... there is no Grandfather of the Level requirement. So... looks like I will Captain for a long time. Happy Hunting.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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Phil Hirons, Jr.
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Posts: 793
Unit: NER-RI-033

« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2017, 02:29:28 PM »

CAPP 213 was last updated in 98  ;)

Quote
Complete the Inland SAR Plannerís Course conducted by the USCG Search and Rescue School and AFRCC, the SAR Management Course conducted by AFRCC, or an ES school conducted and/or approved by National HQ CAP/DO.

So it would seem you can substitute for that requirement. NESA would seem to cover it under conducted. I could not find any lists of approved on the CAP members site.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2017, 02:41:22 PM »

BISC counts for this doesn't it?  (Not that those are plentiful, either, but at least it's only two days and usually on a weekend).
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kwe1009
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Posts: 638

« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 09:28:22 PM »

There are many other specialty tracks and some have an easier path to a master rating than others.
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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 09:39:15 PM »

so. I did some research and.... there is no Grandfather of the Level requirement. So... looks like I will Captain for a long time. Happy Hunting.

Not true. So in accordance with CAPR 35-5 Section 2.1.2 "Members applying for duty performance promotions during the period 11 August 2014 to 11 August 2018 may use the previous duty performance promotion requirements for their next promotion. The memberís present date of grade must be prior to 11 August 2014 in order to be eligible for this grandfather clause. This clause may only be used once for the memberís next promotion."

This includes all of the duty performance promotion requirements, not just the time in grade portion. I initially thought the same thing, but "duty performance promotion" refers not to time-in-grade but to the type of promotion (a promotion under section 2). So if you are promoting to Major under the grandfather clause provision you only need to have completed Level 3 (so your senior rating).

Texas Wing has a good overview of the new and grandfather clause requirements: https://www.txwgcap.org/departments/pd/senior-member-officer-progression-comparison-chart/

Grandfather promotions are processed in e-services just like the new ones, the system has the logic built in to handle it, no need to do anything special. I can confirm that this is all true in practice, having done it for myself and other squadron members.
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Devil Doc
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Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2017, 10:42:47 AM »

so. I did some research and.... there is no Grandfather of the Level requirement. So... looks like I will Captain for a long time. Happy Hunting.

Not true. So in accordance with CAPR 35-5 Section 2.1.2 "Members applying for duty performance promotions during the period 11 August 2014 to 11 August 2018 may use the previous duty performance promotion requirements for their next promotion. The memberís present date of grade must be prior to 11 August 2014 in order to be eligible for this grandfather clause. This clause may only be used once for the memberís next promotion."

This includes all of the duty performance promotion requirements, not just the time in grade portion. I initially thought the same thing, but "duty performance promotion" refers not to time-in-grade but to the type of promotion (a promotion under section 2). So if you are promoting to Major under the grandfather clause provision you only need to have completed Level 3 (so your senior rating).

Texas Wing has a good overview of the new and grandfather clause requirements: https://www.txwgcap.org/departments/pd/senior-member-officer-progression-comparison-chart/

Grandfather promotions are processed in e-services just like the new ones, the system has the logic built in to handle it, no need to do anything special. I can confirm that this is all true in practice, having done it for myself and other squadron members.

Ok. so I am totally new at this new rule.  I Achieved Level 2 back in 2014 not sure the month.   I was promoted to Captain July 2015 ( Under the Grandfather Clause) so If everything is Correct, Since I had Level 2 in 2014, I only need level 3 to make Major? However, I cannot get Major  until Aug 2019 ( to go with Current TIG) which is after the cutoff date of Aug 2018.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2017, 10:47:07 AM »

BISC counts for this doesn't it?  (Not that those are plentiful, either, but at least it's only two days and usually on a weekend).

Im not sure, I have Attended MERSAR.... which i'm not sure if that counts also. BISC is a course I would love to take, there was one in my state in FEB. If they counted BISC or similar that would be awesome.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
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Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,589

« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2017, 10:51:58 AM »

BISC counts for this doesn't it?  (Not that those are plentiful, either, but at least it's only two days and usually on a weekend).

Im not sure, I have Attended MERSAR.... which i'm not sure if that counts also. BISC is a course I would love to take, there was one in my state in FEB. If they counted BISC or similar that would be awesome.

If NESA counts like Phil thinks it might, and you have a week or two in the summer to help teach some cool skills, we are currently looking for good leaders who are also GTL's to serve on staff. If you're a qualified GTL, you received an email from John D on March 30 with further information.
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"Anyone can hold the helm when the seas are calm ... leadership is about weathering the storm."

The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2017, 10:54:42 AM »

BISC counts for this doesn't it?  (Not that those are plentiful, either, but at least it's only two days and usually on a weekend).

Im not sure, I have Attended MERSAR.... which i'm not sure if that counts also. BISC is a course I would love to take, there was one in my state in FEB. If they counted BISC or similar that would be awesome.

The BISC is the only "SAR Management Course" other then Inland offered by the AFRCC, so that clearly qualifies,
and "they" in this case is your Unit CC, so that's the place to discuss.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2017, 10:59:23 AM »

Ok. so I am totally new at this new rule.  I Achieved Level 2 back in 2014 not sure the month.   I was promoted to Captain July 2015 ( Under the Grandfather Clause) so If everything is Correct, Since I had Level 2 in 2014, I only need level 3 to make Major? However, I cannot get Major  until Aug 2019 ( to go with Current TIG) which is after the cutoff date of Aug 2018.

Unfortunately, no you will need Level IV for Major, and V for Lt Col.

Your "1-up" was Captain, after which you must catch up your PD levels to the new standard before being
eligible to promote.

The cutoff was those who had received their last promotion on or before August 2014 - they were allowed
one promotion under the old system, until August 2018.
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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 09:22:40 AM »

BISC counts for this doesn't it?  (Not that those are plentiful, either, but at least it's only two days and usually on a weekend).

Im not sure, I have Attended MERSAR.... which i'm not sure if that counts also. BISC is a course I would love to take, there was one in my state in FEB. If they counted BISC or similar that would be awesome.

If NESA counts like Phil thinks it might, and you have a week or two in the summer to help teach some cool skills, we are currently looking for good leaders who are also GTL's to serve on staff. If you're a qualified GTL, you received an email from John D on March 30 with further information.

I did receive one.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.

Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 09:24:30 AM »

Ok. so I am totally new at this new rule.  I Achieved Level 2 back in 2014 not sure the month.   I was promoted to Captain July 2015 ( Under the Grandfather Clause) so If everything is Correct, Since I had Level 2 in 2014, I only need level 3 to make Major? However, I cannot get Major  until Aug 2019 ( to go with Current TIG) which is after the cutoff date of Aug 2018.

Unfortunately, no you will need Level IV for Major, and V for Lt Col.

Your "1-up" was Captain, after which you must catch up your PD levels to the new standard before being
eligible to promote.

The cutoff was those who had received their last promotion on or before August 2014 - they were allowed
one promotion under the old system, until August 2018.

Anthony@CAP mentioned that the PD Level and Rank Are Grandfathered. Oh well, Im still going to get Level 3, just incase I ever decide to get Level 4. I should have my Senior rating within 2 weeks, and just need to Conferences.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 09:28:16 AM »

This is what 35-5 actually says:

"NOTE: Members applying for duty performance promotions during the period 11 August 2014 to 11
August 2018 may use the previous duty performance promotion requirements for their next promotion.
The memberís present date of grade must be prior to 11 August 2014 in order to be eligible for this
grandfather clause. This clause may only be used once for the memberís next promotion."


This should / would also be reflected in your entry in the promotions module, which changes over to the new requirements
after members get their "1-Up" under the pre-2014 requirements.

I've heard the argument that if a Specialty Track's requirements were also changed during that period, that the
member should be allowed to complete the track needed for that "1-Up" under the old requirements as well.
I'm not sure I buy that, but ultimately it's a CC's subjective call as to completion.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 09:31:44 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 10:05:08 AM »

This is what 35-5 actually says:

"NOTE: Members applying for duty performance promotions during the period 11 August 2014 to 11
August 2018 may use the previous duty performance promotion requirements for their next promotion.
The memberís present date of grade must be prior to 11 August 2014 in order to be eligible for this
grandfather clause. This clause may only be used once for the memberís next promotion."


This should / would also be reflected in your entry in the promotions module, which changes over to the new requirements
after members get their "1-Up" under the pre-2014 requirements.

I've heard the argument that if a Specialty Track's requirements were also changed during that period, that the
member should be allowed to complete the track needed for that "1-Up" under the old requirements as well.
I'm not sure I buy that, but ultimately it's a CC's subjective call as to completion.

I appreciate it, I am not arguing, im just trying to figure out what to do.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 10:24:27 AM »

I've heard the argument that if a Specialty Track's requirements were also changed during that period, that the
member should be allowed to complete the track needed for that "1-Up" under the old requirements as well.
I'm not sure I buy that, but ultimately it's a CC's subjective call as to completion.

So this is where members get confused. The current version of CAPR35-5 has no direct requirements for specialty tracks, what it requires is that you have a completed a certain professional development level and a minimum amount of time-in-grade. In fact the words ďspecialty trackĒ donít appear anywhere in the duty performance section of the regulation. (The only place the appear is one utterance in Mission Related Skills Promotion Ė and there it only requires you be assigned one Ė not have completed one)

Now given, they are indirectly required by the various professional development levels, which are governed by CAPR 50-17. But under the grandfather provisions, you only need to meet the professional development level required under the old regulation, and so you only need to meet the specialty track requirements of that professional development level.

The old regulation did directly require the Technicianís rating for 1st Lt, but even then, that was the only place it was a direct requirement. Otherwise it just required the Professional Development level.


Here is what the current version requires (22 NOVEMBER 2016):
Promotion ToMinimum SkillTime-In-Grade
2d LtLevel I6 months as a member
1st LtLevel II18 months as 2d Lt or TFO (or combination thereof)
CaptainLevel III30 months as 1st Lt or SFO (or combination thereof)
MajorLevel IV4 years as Captain
Lt ColLevel V5 years as Major

Here is what the old version requires (1 JANUARY 2014)
Promotion ToMinimum SkillTime-In-Grade
2d LtLevel 16 months as senior member
1st LtTech Rating12 months as 2d Lt or TFO
CaptainLevel II18 months as 1st Lt or SFO
MajorLevel III3 years as Captain
Lt ColLevel IV4 years as Major

You get to use the grandfather clause once, if your last promotion was before  11 August 2014, and your next promotion is APPROVED before 11 August 2018. If you use the grandfather clause, you need to meet the requirements in the table from the old regulation. Otherwise you are stuck with the new requirements.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 10:54:15 AM »

Correct, where the discussions and some frustrations come in is with the Tracks that were updated
or changed, sometimes with increased expectations, on or around the Aug 2014 promotion changes.

I think in most cases, the sweet spot here is Captains looking to Major as their terminal promotion before 2018,
so thus needing Level III which requires a Senior in something.

These are the Tracks affected:

P200     25 Jul 14            Specialty Track Study Guide-Personnel
P201     31 Oct 16    Specialty Track Study Guide-Public Affairs Officer
P203     10 Apr 15    Specialty Track Study Guide-Inspector General
P205     Nov 15        Specialty Track Study Guide-Administration
P214      6 Apr 16            Specialty Track Study Guide-Communications Officer
P215     22 Dec 16    Specialty Track Study Guide-Aerospace Education Officer
P216     Apr 14       Specialty Track Study Guide - Cadet Programs
P217     Jan 16       Specialty Track Study Guide-Safety Officer
P219    Jul 15       Specialty Track Study Guide-Legal Officer

Without digging, as I recall, PAO was one of the ones that added some non-trivial service
requirements that upped the bar on completion.

CP on the other hand extended the checklist pretty long, but most of the items are discussions or
explanations.  The only external pinch point is TLC, which has always been there, but some wings aren't running
them enough, or timely, or in proximity to a given member.

Something else that just struck me is the "second chance", which has always been on the table before and
now won't be for many. 

Member hears of the new requirements, decides it's important, and refocuses for a while on his own progression,
does the time and the work, and comes in under or near the wire.

The packet lingers on desks as the echelons measure the angle of the member's Jib to insure it is cut right.
It isn't for "reasons", promotion denied with the required indication of why.

Without intention to restart the argument about additional objective standards being in the way in >this< thread,
the "why" is reasonable, typical, and will take 6 months to a year to come to fruition.

August 2018 passes, and the conversation becomes moot, as the member is not going to reboot again,
nor point at RSC and Level IV, but instead considers finding better ways to spend his time.

In fact, you can bet there are going to be a lot of units running "2-minute drills" next summer, and "running out
the clock" will become a strategy to deny promotions without having to actually deny them.

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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2017, 11:40:27 AM »

Eclipse, thanks for clarifying (I may have mis-read the original note on it). Those are definitely an issue, and they don't have a similar grandfather clause.

I'm doing what I can within my squadron to prevent those "2 minute drills" next year. We just went though everyone's records and gave them all a cheat sheet on what they need for their next PD level and promotion (which was ridiculously time consuming since their isn't a single report you can run). Somewhat to my surprise a number of members are now on track to finish up by this summer.
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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2017, 03:28:57 PM »

Eclipse, thanks for clarifying (I may have mis-read the original note on it). Those are definitely an issue, and they don't have a similar grandfather clause.

I'm doing what I can within my squadron to prevent those "2 minute drills" next year. We just went though everyone's records and gave them all a cheat sheet on what they need for their next PD level and promotion (which was ridiculously time consuming since their isn't a single report you can run). Somewhat to my surprise a number of members are now on track to finish up by this summer.

If you don't mind, since my PD is just as confused, can you tell me what to look for to see If I am under the old PD System, im sure Eclipse is correct about me having to be Lvl IV for Major.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 39

« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2017, 04:20:56 PM »

If you don't mind, since my PD is just as confused, can you tell me what to look for to see If I am under the old PD System, im sure Eclipse is correct about me having to be Lvl IV for Major.

Of course, there are two easy ways to check:
1) Click on Member Search > Choose Yourself > Look at the Date of Rank. If the date is before 11 Aug 2014 you are eligible for one grandfather promotion (as long as it occurs before the deadline).

OR

2) Click on Member Reports > Senior Member Promotion Eligibility > View Report. It breaks down the unit by which promotion is next, and whether it is under the new system or the old system; if you are eligible under the old system under the Grey Bar showing the requirements it will say in red "*Grandfather Requirements"
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