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Author Topic: Duty Positions for the Technologically Challenged?  (Read 2988 times)
kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« on: April 09, 2017, 09:17:01 PM »

Hello CapTalk Hive mind:

I have an older gentlemen on my Group staff who point blank refuses to get with the times. What are some duty positions that don't use that much technology? I keep thinking of positions, but then I remember that most of that job is on eServices (Admin, Personnel, etc.)

Bear in mind that this is the type of guy that does not answer emails, and will basically only call when contact is wanted to be made. It's crazy annoying, and fairly frustrating for a younger CC who is trying to modernize.


So...thoughts??
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 09:22:03 PM »

So...thoughts??

30 Days to find a new Squadron.

At the Group level everything is remote, there's no way to manage it any other way,
and no staff jobs, other then "assistant to" that can be done any more by someone
who can't be bothered.
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 09:36:45 PM »

I would love to boot him to a subordinate unit. However, it would seem that no one "wants" him. He's also the type to be a thorn in peoples' sides (not the motivational kind, the infected kind.)
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 09:41:00 PM »

Your answer is on this page, you just don't like it.

Someone like this probably wound up at Group to start with because no one
wanted to have the conversation, so now he's parked there.

If he can't "do" tech, then the only place he's going to have any success or pleasant time
is at a squadron doing some wrench turning with cadets, probably.

If he can't or won't do that, then better to just have a sit-down, maybe with a Form 40
and lay it out.
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NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 10:27:26 PM »

Sad to say, there are few jobs at the Group level that don't need at least technologically inclined members.

Combat Boot Counter? SnackO?

I mean, seriously, you can't even be a Recruiting Officer anymore and not have some technological needs.

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2017, 11:29:25 PM »

What staff position is he doing now? Anyone else that can slide into the position and just let him fall off .....
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DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 12:34:00 AM »

CDI.  Pretty much can all be done on paper.  Even the reporting CAPF 34 can be sent through the mail.
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Spam
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Posts: 913
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2017, 01:28:36 AM »

For CDI, the officer conducting the character development class still has to log the participant credit in eServices, just like the officer conducting PT must log the scores, just as the testing officer must log test scores, and the safety officer must log participation in the mandatory monthly safety meeting.

Unless you can find a unit which has someone who is a dedicated Admin officer who enters all that for him, then he is being/has been left behind by progress.

Two ways to take this: the Trump "you're FIRED" negative way, or, may I suggest, phrasing this as a challenge to him to go back to basics and grow from the need to reinvent himself. I've seen older members take this as a challenge, and rise to the occasion.

V/r
Spam
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 09:32:14 AM »

Eclipse: That's  correct- from what I understand he is a leftover from a now defunct squadron. However, I'm hoping to have the sit down with him at this month's meeting (if we have time.)

NIN: I love that idea. I should have thought of the SnackO!

eTodd: Currently, he is the transportation officer. However, we have had no vehicles, so he's been able to coast as that. Now that we may be getting a vehicle, I know he won't be able to accurately do the job.

DJ Light Chop: I'm going to have to agree with Spam, I don't think CDI would be a good fit for him.

Spam: I may have to pull a Trump if he's unwilling, and I think I'm ready for that.
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 10:19:44 AM »

I wouldn't wait for next month's meeting - better to have the conversations now or as soon as you can.
Next month becomes the next month because he's not there, and then you miss the one after and
the next thing you know the year's digit changes.

For those suggesting CDI, that may sound like a good idea, however not everyone is cut out for
those discussions, many of which involve technology and its use in today's universe, not to
mention whatever unit he moved into might have no interest in his filling that role, and assuming the
answer was / is "yes", all CDI's have to be approved by Wing, Region, and NHQ as well (after the "GoodFella Letter"
and application process) and as mentioned, activity reporting and the Form 34 are now done online, with
the expectations of tracking activities actually higher then for most members.

I would also agree that Transportation for a charter with a vehicle is going to cause problems for the same reasons,
not to mention that even now he's supposed to be making sure the units are doing their required work and
acting as an SME for related issues.   The "supposed to be an SME" part is going to be a problem no matter
what job he might get or maintain at the Group level.

Assuming he's open to being a wrench turner vs. a manager, any "assistant" job could work out, but that also
assumes the primary is interested in having an assistant who needs a special invitation to participate (i.e. a voice call).
That would drive me nuts, personally.  I don't mind kibitzing with another member for an hour to solve the ills
of CAP when I'm on the road or in the late evening when everything on YouTube is a rerun, but when getting
actual work done, it's all quick texts, email, and GSuite Docs.

One place I usually try to steer people not interested in staff roles is as ES ICS staff, but these days that
is as online as ever.

Maybe on the AE side he could help with AEX activities, but a lot of that info is online as well.

If he's not knowledgeable about the ways of the intertubes and is willing to learn, it might be worth the
effort to help him. If he's simply decided "don't know / don't care" then it is what it is.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 12:56:27 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 209

« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 10:44:17 AM »

Sounds like you're looking for something that can be processed on a 2A, when what he needs is to be processed on a 2B.

If he has something in CAP that he truly enjoys doing to serve, he'll do what he needs to become more effective. If he doesn't it's time for him to move on down the road.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 913
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 12:37:57 PM »

I'm seeing a generally harsh tone here towards a member whose greatest faults seem to be (a) he's older, with less flexibility to change, and (b) he's a bit of a pest of sorts. I'm not sure that either of those equate to causes to terminate CAP membership under CAPR 35-3 - do y'all? Really?


Sometimes I wonder how CAP can be proclaimed a 501c3 charity, and yet be so uncharitable. As Commanders, we are expected to apply a balance between operational efficiency and humanity - the sensible enforcement of nondiscrimination polices which should shield such older members against the impulse to boot them out: see CAPR 36-1 4 AUGUST 2016 https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf:
"1.3. Title III of the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 provides that no person in the United States shall, on the basis of age, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance".


Major, your key questions seem to be twofold to me: the first is to find a useful role for the guy, and second to determine if you have a need for that specialty at your (Group) level. I am seeing advice here to simply terminate his membership, rather than answer those questions, which seems a shame to me. So, constructively, how about looking for reasons to find a SOLUTION, rather than ways to flush people?


Finally, here's some more concrete suggestions.
- Start with his training record, coupled with an interview (what skill sets does he have/tasks he is he good at)
- Pull 20-1 and peruse the PDs (position descriptions) and the org charts
- Consider an Assistant role under another, more tech savvy OPR
- In the spirit of Professional Development, challenge him up to grow
- Consider which slots really have low technological requirements (have you thought about Historian, for example)
- However, if he is truly in a primary contributor role requiring mentoring, he needs to be at a Squadron level, not at Group, where expertise and experience is required to assist across units (rather than require assistance).
- Also, if your analysis with him shows that his skill set doesn't match your needs at Group (per 20-1 and your Commanders Guidance), he needs to go to a Squadron.


V/r
Spam


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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »

I guess from my point of view, the question is this, is the member unable to learn or unwilling to learn? If the member simply does not have the knowledge but is willing, then I feel we should help and educate. If the member refuses to learn the job due to technology, then I feel we should not have to hand hold the member. We have to watch what we sell vs. what CAP really is. We need to be upfront with Senior Officers and Cadets/Parents, that internet access and knowledge in essential. People may not like that but it is the truth.

As long as we recruit and retain simply based on numbers for numbers sake, we will, increasingly, have members that are just empty shirts.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 01:11:38 PM by CAPDCCMOM » Logged
Spam
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 01:49:36 PM »

Good points. If, after having the discussion of skillsets vs. jobs available at Group level, the member is unwilling/unable to meet job requirements, he needs to be moved to the right slot at a line unit. Groups and Wings are support levels for line units, at a level where expertise is required rather than primary or remedial instruction in a specialty. This is all basic personnel management, really.


If he arrives back at a Squadron, and then is unwilling or unable to learn (say, he's really in a declining mental state due to age), what then? 2B? I'd argue, not until a certain point, and let's not bother debating with these guys ability vs. will (a waste of time - just link their continued status on actual performance of mandatory tasking). If at some point he is simply unable physically to attend unit meetings or participate in mandatory training (for example, mandatory CPPT refreshers on line, which will hit soon for all of us) then the unit/CC needs to have a discussion with him about a natural transition to Patron status.


Remember, in managing expectations for new members, cadets and adults are very different: cadets swear to "advance their training and education rapidly", where the adult CAPF12 oath of membership doesn't require equivalent progression in PD. I've had IG types (of which I'm one now, sadly) over the decades try to write up discrepancies for a few "permanent LTs" who go on serving admirably year after year without any need to earn advanced ratings, or promote. If your definition of a good unit excludes members who can only participate marginally at the limit of their capability, within the limit of their comfort, and within the limit of their finances, then (from my perspective) you're ruling out recycling all that talent. To me (just my opinion) the "empty shirt" label is somewhat insulting, frankly... everyone should be viewed as a potential contributor in the margin, until they reach the point where, as I say, we have to have them shift to Patron status (where even then, they might return).


Inclusiveness and diversity is a be-yatch, ain't it?    :)


V/r
Spam
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2017, 02:03:18 PM »

^^^ Great points Spam!!! I was just having this conversation with a fellow SO the other day. What about the Senior Member, that has ben active for a very long time and health declines, maybe age related issues or something like that. This member can not do what they once did, but CAP is the only social outlet, perhaps the one thing this person looks forward to all week. Do we kick that person to the curb, I would say absolutely not!!!!

All things in this case must be case by case I think
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Mordecai
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Posts: 1,052
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 02:55:12 PM »

My .02c

There are literally free classes everywhere to learn computers now.
My local library has a free windows 10 training class.

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,809

« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 03:23:27 PM »

My .02c

There are literally free classes everywhere to learn computers now.
My local library has a free windows 10 training class.

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"

My .02c

These members do not want to "get with the times". The organization makes some demands from the membership. One of those demands is that have a working knowledge of the technology that is in wide usage. If they can't do that or fail to adapt to the changes, then they really no longer have a place at the table. If they're lacking a basic skill set that the organization needs or requires, it's not CAP's responsibility to get them up to speed.
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Strup
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2017, 03:35:26 PM »

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"

So that begs the question of the when and who this is supposed to be presented by, and how much
time is supposed to be invested in people who can't be bothered?

CAP doesn't exist in a world where squadrons have 20-30 people with little to do and pet projects
like this have a ready pool of people willing and able to run them.  Most squadrons have barely
the people to get mission-centric tasks accomplished.

CAP may provide avenues for people to work outside their comfort zones and learn new skills,
but adult continuing education, especially in the realm of basic-skills literacy isn't one of them.

On the cadet side of the house, you can make that argument, but on the Senior side, it's about what you
can bring to the table, and if your skillset, aptitudes and / or willingness to expend the effort don't lie within a
fairly narrow lane, then there are plenty of other ways and places that people can serve their communities
outside CAP.

Every hour spent learnifyin' someone on something they don't care enough about to get to on their
own, is one hour less spent on mission-centric activities.

The reality is that there is a percentage of the population who will simply never "get" computers, even many
born inside the "digital age" have cell phones that "flash 12"and they are fine with that, and for those,
job, activities, and opportunities which require those skills simply are not an option, no different from
flying airplanes require one to be a pilot or driving a car requires a driver's license.

That's not "discriminatory" that's reality, and not something CAP has the manpower or capability to affect on
any meaningful level.
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NIN
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2017, 04:05:59 PM »

My .02c

These members do not want to "get with the times". The organization makes some demands from the membership. One of those demands is that have a working knowledge of the technology that is in wide usage. If they can't do that or fail to adapt to the changes, then they really no longer have a place at the table. If they're lacking a basic skill set that the organization needs or requires, it's not CAP's responsibility to get them up to speed.

What do you say to the pilot who says "Sorry, I don't want to talk on the radio.." or "I'm never getting in that new-fangled glass cockpit thingy..", right?

"Hey, Bob, we need someone to fly an ELT search right now.. Are you available?"

"Sure I am, I'm retired! But wing just rotated one of those fancy glass cockpit planes to our airport and I refuse to fly it, so I'm not checked out."

"Nevermind, I'll call Tom."

"Tom's on vacation."

"*sigh*"

the world is changing and evolving. These same kinds of people proudly march around and tell you they have a flip phone and they don't see why nobody would need nothing else while the rest of us could kind of sorta darn near run a squadron off an internet-enabled tablet (if we could get Internet).

One night during one of our recruiting presentations about using technology to maintain your recruiting pool, I was monitoring the questions via the YouTube Live chat while our presenter was doing his thing, and one gent asked "Why can't we just use paper? that always worked in the past." 

*facepalm*

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Spam
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Posts: 913
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2017, 05:09:20 PM »

So, what did you answer, to that comment?

V/r
Spam

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etodd
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Posts: 789

« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2017, 06:54:23 PM »


eTodd: Currently, he is the transportation officer. However, we have had no vehicles, so he's been able to coast as that. Now that we may be getting a vehicle, I know he won't be able to accurately do the job.


HaHa .... it might take care of itself. Maybe he has enjoyed being the Transportation Officer simply because he had to do nothing and just coast. Once you have a vehicle, he might step back anyway. Go ahead now and send him a refresher list of what he will be responsible for with the vehicle ... and you might be surprised how quick he asks for 'another' Transportation Officer to help out.
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2017, 09:29:25 AM »


eTodd: Currently, he is the transportation officer. However, we have had no vehicles, so he's been able to coast as that. Now that we may be getting a vehicle, I know he won't be able to accurately do the job.


HaHa .... it might take care of itself. Maybe he has enjoyed being the Transportation Officer simply because he had to do nothing and just coast. Once you have a vehicle, he might step back anyway. Go ahead now and send him a refresher list of what he will be responsible for with the vehicle ... and you might be surprised how quick he asks for 'another' Transportation Officer to help out.

That's actually a good point. I may call him and explain exactly what he will have to do, and politely give him the option of stepping down if he feels he's unable to do the work.
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2017, 09:42:16 AM »

That's actually a good point. I may call him and explain exactly what he will have to do, and politely give him the option of stepping down if he feels he's unable to do the work.

I would say that's reasonable as long as you don't have an SUI in the offing - Transport is one of the tabs I'm always
happiest about when we don't have a vehicle.

Not difficult, but a lot of moving pieces and you have to rely on people outside your chain to do the right thing when they use it.
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2017, 09:47:04 AM »


Not difficult, but a lot of moving pieces and you have to rely on people outside your chain to do the right thing when they use it.

Luckily, I'm *possibly* getting this vehicle for "command functions" (driving to subordinate units, Group meetings, Wing meetings, recruiting, etc.) I have a 19 county territory, and besides the unit in my town, the nearest is 50 miles away! P So the only person using it will be me.
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2017, 09:54:02 AM »

I am totally coming to OHWG for no other reason then to borrow that vehicle!

Also, at random times I am going to sneak up to it and change the air pressure labels.
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 97
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2017, 09:56:45 AM »

Please do! That would be entertaining to say the least!
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
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NIN
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2017, 11:47:26 AM »

That's actually a good point. I may call him and explain exactly what he will have to do, and politely give him the option of stepping down if he feels he's unable to do the work.

I would say that's reasonable as long as you don't have an SUI in the offing - Transport is one of the tabs I'm always
happiest about when we don't have a vehicle.

Not difficult, but a lot of moving pieces and you have to rely on people outside your chain to do the right thing when they use it.

My sq is around the corner from Wing HQ. We need a van, we ask the HQ transportation officer. The only thing my transportation officer does (don't have one, my logistics officer handles) is licensing. Yay.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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AirAux
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Posts: 743

« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2017, 11:57:22 AM »

So, we offer world class service to the handicapped but not to those technologically challenged?  Interesting.  Go ahead, eat the weak ones, but remember, you too will become old and worthless and wonder why no one wants you after having served for 40 years.  [darn], you guys are heartless.....
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chuckmilam
Recruit

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Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2017, 04:54:22 PM »

So, we offer world class service to the handicapped but not to those technologically challenged?

There is quite a difference between those who cannot walk and those who stubbornly refuse to do so.
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AirAux
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« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2017, 09:14:03 AM »

Aren't we the high and mighty and able to discern between those that can't and those that won't.  For some people, the new technology is beyond their abilities.  We do not all have 120 IQ and we were not all born with an I-Phone in our mouth.  Some of us remember not having telephones or televisions, but we have contributed greatly throughout the years.  Some of us do not have the skills to type.  There is a big difference in the ability to do something and the inability to do something.  Don't worry, with the way technology is advancing, you will soon get your opportunity to be looked down on. 
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2017, 10:11:20 AM »

Aren't we the high and mighty and able to discern between those that can't and those that won't.

Please reread the OP...

Hello CapTalk Hive mind:

I have an older gentlemen on my Group staff who point blank refuses to get with the times. What are some duty positions that don't use that much technology? I keep thinking of positions, but then I remember that most of that job is on eServices (Admin, Personnel, etc.)

Bear in mind that this is the type of guy that does not answer emails, and will basically only call when contact is wanted to be made. It's crazy annoying, and fairly frustrating for a younger CC who is trying to modernize.


So...thoughts??

The very first line indicates that the senior member in question falls into your won't category.  Your larger point is well taken, but it does not apply in this case.
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William Hess, Maj, CAP
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« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2017, 10:31:21 AM »

Aren't we the high and mighty and able to discern between those that can't and those that won't.  For some people, the new technology is beyond their abilities.  We do not all have 120 IQ and we were not all born with an I-Phone in our mouth.  Some of us remember not having telephones or televisions, but we have contributed greatly throughout the years.  Some of us do not have the skills to type.  There is a big difference in the ability to do something and the inability to do something.  Don't worry, with the way technology is advancing, you will soon get your opportunity to be looked down on.


I've got SMs in their 50s who are more tech savvy than I am in my 20s. I have a SM in his 80s who not only emails, plans PD courses, but also texts me regularly when necessary. Then I've got SMs in their 60s who don't know how to add a contact to their cell. Most are willing to learn/reach out for help. Some? Some talk "back in my day", and then tell me why they can't do X.


Whom do you think I'll focus on more?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2017, 10:44:20 AM »

Aren't we the high and mighty and able to discern between those that can't and those that won't. 

The discernment is not a mission of CAP per se, and the end result is the same.

I am unable to fly an airplane, therefore I cannot be a pilot, "why" is irrelevant, since CAP has little ability to change that.

I am an experienced motorcycle rider and instructor.  CAP has no need for the former skill, but may be able to exploit
the latter in a general sense.  If I am focused on only using the former, and uninterested in bringing the latter to
the table, "why" is irrelevant since CAP has little ability to change that.

For some people, the new technology is beyond their abilities.

Generally only because they have decided not to be interested, not because of actual physical or mental limitations.

We do not all have 120 IQ and we were not all born with an I-Phone in our mouth. 

Companies like Apple and Google have spent billions to make technology simple to use for even the most
advanced technophobe.  YouTube has insured that simple instructions for doing anything computer-related or
otherwise, are one click away.

An advanced IQ isn't remotely needed to use computers, in fact, literally the reverse, and in cases after case,
technology is an enabler for those with diminished physical or mental capabilities.

Some of us remember not having telephones or televisions, but we have contributed greatly throughout the years.

A lecture on "What I did ten years ago." won't help a unit earn a QCUA today, teach a cadet to drill, find someone who is in distress,
or plan an activity, yet many people believe simply remembering "how great it was" somehow helps accomplish something.

For some reason people fall into the rut of believing not being able to contribute today, diminishes what they accomplished before.
it doesn't, however ignoring reality and complaining that things change helps no one, nor does being defensive about it,
or trying to infer it is something personal.

Some of us do not have the skills to type. 

Agreed.  The ability to type is no longer a requirement for the use of computers or mobile technology.

There is a big difference in the ability to do something and the inability to do something. 

Yes, there is, however I am going to assume that what you meant to say is:

"There is a big difference between the ability to do something and the willingness to do it."

To which I would also agree, and as a couple of others have posted as well, both states appears to exist
here based on the OP - the member has neither the ability to perform, nor the interest to learn, and
further has been cited as someone with a contentious demeanor.  The result is an unhappy member,
unhappy peers, and no benefit for anyone, including CAP, but lots of potential negative.

I have personally spent uncountable hours helping and mentoring people, both in CAP and in my professional
career, utilize technology to their advantage.  Rare is the person who simply and literally cannot understand,
common are people who have decided they are disinterested in the offer, or unhappy with the circumstance,
therefore have no intention of putting forth the effort.

In the latter, at some point you have to disengage and move on.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
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Shieldel
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2017, 12:23:16 PM »

I've had A LOT of major differences with Eclipse in the past few months (I'm beginning to think I'm developing a poor rep on this board, I haven't even logged in months, didn't want to be known as the idiot hot-headed new senior on the block with TONS of attitude), but I really have to agree with him here.

Between my cadet years and last year on a FEMA Internship to where I deployed to Louisiana, to most recently where NVWG is JUST FINALLY getting recognized/known by the state and county emergency managers, I've come across a lot of elders. Some have needed assistance, others just are too stuck in their "old ways" shall we say and refuse to..."modernize" (I'm really trying to say this delicately) some have even refused to the point to come across as plain hostile. Some people you just can't help, gotta call it and move on to the next person. Call it "triaging" trainees

When I was a cadet sometime between...2013-2015 I was very active in Wing and Squadron SAREXes around Southern Nevada. It helps that dad is an IC and was present for most of those but dad is irrelevant to the point. We have a lot of elder seniors (no pun intended) that require assistance with even basic functions with the IMU (we used to use the IMU, we've since migrated to the IMS, but again, irrelevant detail here). I was a SET for MSA (was, now past tense as most of my quals expired while I was on deployment with FEMA, working on getting them back), which people LOVED, as I was a young cadet, so it was kindof a given I knew tech, they would always plop me down with the elder senior and show them the system. Some loved having it explained by a cadet (who was very patient, but I try not to toot my own horn), others were grumbling about "not doing it on paper" to which I would always fire back with "Well hey, tell ya what? NVWG wants say the radio log done in IMU AND on Paper in case of a facility evac if SHTF, why don't you just do it on paper then?," some were thankful I knew the ICP policy and gave them an out. Others grumbled still and wondered why we even bother with tech at all. And others were just downright scared or hostile towards tech.

When I was with FEMA I was SO shocked to see some guys work with just paper. The FCO, a retired Marine did not have it. Anybody that refused to use tech was asked to either grab a laptop and get with it, or you can be transferred to another disaster or sent back to your home region facility. FEMA uses WEBEOC, we NEEDED to use technology, we had FIVE floors of federal and state personnel, we used tech to talk, to brief, and to stay in touch with personnel at the home office. To REALLY drive the point home, I was attached to an IMAT, one of their caches is NOTHING but pelican cases of tech. The only thing I EVER used on paper was filling out and updating T-Cards and keeping deployed Task Forces and Crews up to date on the T-Card Board as I was a FEMA Planner. Have the cert to prove it! I was tasked with all "tangible" documents outside of the Incident Action Plan. Being on disaster on 4277 (Louisiana's federal declaration number for the 1,000 year flood) was enjoyable and really opened my eyes as I've never had a real-world CAP deployment/mission. Granted even now as we speak, CAP crews in Northern Nevada are flying as now we have FEMA deployed at home for flooding up north. I also made briefing books for the FEMA and State OSC, the Deputy OSC and the Mission Assignment Manager.

The reality of today is tech is ingrained into I want to say darn-near if not every industry. Even at my work at the T-Mobile Arena as a Warehouse Runner, I badge in using a card, I work the computer and dispatch other warehouse runners using the computer and phone, our inventory is done on the computer, our end of event reports are done on the computer, even "basic" labor work involves tech in someway these days.

Now since I've come home Clark County EOC has been made aware of CAP (I had no idea we were unknown to the county...that was kindof embarrassing) after we helped them out on photo recon for Mt. Charleston this year. Aircrews flew photo missions and since we had geo-tagged photos (God bless the CAP Nikons!) one of our pilots has software that compiled all the geotagged photos and put them in order around the mountain, to even include the altitude since it was in the geo-tag. CCEOC got a good idea of what they were dealing with thanks to photography, photo editing (a little touch up here and there, Photoshop!) and some REALLY nice photo compilation software that compiled all the photos onto the mountain's topography. Now we're flying up in NorNev (Northern Nevada) almost every day between the 2 northern squads with aircraft, and beaming the photos back to NV SEOC upon landing using the state's uploader system.

TL;DR Tech is important in today's age. Don't be the person to gripe and grumble and cause headaches for others, granted I can be patient with you and train you if I know you look like you actually want it, but if you refuse to learn or make it obvious you're just glossing over it, now I have a headache. I have to go back to the OSC or IC or whoever else and report that I have a command post staff member who refuses to learn what they need to learn. Why should I waste my time teaching if I know it'll not be put to use? And I'll echo the point, if you refuse to use tech in a prevalent tech world, what good are you here? Again, I can work with it if you need help, but if you stubbornly refuse, it makes me wonder what you're doing here.
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2017, 03:40:23 PM »

Are you with FEMA? Its not clear.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2017, 04:35:56 PM »

Behave, Nin.
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Strup
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Shieldel
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2017, 05:54:07 PM »

Colonel Ninness sir, I was with AmeriCorps last year on a national service term. For the purposes of the conversation, I tried not to sound too much like a broken record. I still get a little excited when I can talk about it because I loved the opportunity so much.
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2017, 06:13:02 PM »

Colonel Ninness sir, I was with AmeriCorps last year on a national service term. For the purposes of the conversation, I tried not to sound too much like a broken record. I still get a little excited when I can talk about it because I loved the opportunity so much.

You're fine, I was just needling you a tiny bit.  Your enthusiasm was obvious. :)

(I realized later I should have said "Asking for a friend" to be more "with it.")
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2017, 06:14:26 PM »

Behave, Nin.

Spoil sport. :(
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2017, 06:16:29 PM »

So, what did you answer, to that comment?

My basic answer was "Look, use post-its on a white board or something, it doesn't matter. But track your prospects in a way that makes sure you have positive contact, you get them the info they need, and you're not the bottleneck on the thing.  Electronically makes sense from a distributed work point of view, but if you can't get that far, do it with lined paper in a notebook if need be."

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etodd
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2017, 11:24:24 PM »

I'm 61. Not long ago I was out somewhere at a restaurant, and was entering a flight plan in Foreflight on my iPad. A couple of late teens nearby mentioned how 'cute' it was to see an older guy using an iPad and they giggled. I told them what I was doing on it and the giggling stopped. Then I reminded them that it was their grand and great-grandparent's generations that developed the technology of minaturization of electronics that enabled these devices to be built one day, and that their parent's generation were the geniuses that then developed all these high tech electronic devices, so that the kids today can simply 'use them'.  >:D

(Yes I know today's kids will take it all to new levels, but I made my point with them. They didn't realize how far back all this goes. It didn't just start up. LOL)
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« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2017, 07:26:39 AM »

You mean you weren't just sharing cat videos on Facebook with your grandkids? Hrrmph. Grandparents these days.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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AirAux
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« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2017, 08:41:52 AM »

Nin, I resemble that remark.  I have 8 kitties and plead guilty.  I have entered into this fray and some good people have attempted to show me the error of my ways.  Part of my reply is defensive I am sure.  When we were young and starting out and going to Wing Conferences and making fun of the old gray heads we never realized we would be they some day.  I have had some problems with the new CAP.  I was very comfortable in the way we used to do it.  Coffee and donuts and 4 hours and Level 1 was done and everybody knew everybody a little bit better because we had the time together.  It was what it was and it is now what it is.  I guess one of my concerns with the older member in the OP is, why is he a member and even showing up?  I think he needs something out of CAP, but what, I don't know.  Maybe belonging to something bigger than him?  Maybe he wants to help, but is confused and scared of the technology?  National has thrown a lot of technology at us without much actual training.  Has he been a contributor is years past?  Did he successfully run a Squadron for 10-15 years?  Doe she have a need to be told he matters to somebody?  I don't know, but if he is truly as unhappy as you say, I would think he would wander off and find other things to do.  Maybe he stays because it is just a matter of loyalty to the Corps?  I don't know, but I do know he isn't stopping someone else from being in Group just because he is.  If he sits in the corner and doesn't make waves, is he hurting anyone?  Maybe he is like the 50% of the Corps that really doesn't do anything but show up?  I don't think he needs to be removed or scorned or stoned.  Put him in the corner and give him a cracker occasionally.  At least he is paying his dues.  As Usual, JMHO.
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« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2017, 09:33:30 AM »

Nin, I resemble that remark.  I have 8 kitties and plead guilty.  I have entered into this fray and some good people have attempted to show me the error of my ways.  Part of my reply is defensive I am sure.  When we were young and starting out and going to Wing Conferences and making fun of the old gray heads we never realized we would be they some day.

Oh, you don't have to tell me: I am one of them now. I just keep my hair short so I don't have to look at it and I can keep pretending.

Quote
I have had some problems with the new CAP.  I was very comfortable in the way we used to do it.  Coffee and donuts and 4 hours and Level 1 was done and everybody knew everybody a little bit better because we had the time together.  It was what it was and it is now what it is.

My conversations every day.  "Just because Level I is online doesn't preclude you from actually doing MORE than the online training, or helping facilitate it. Or, heaven forbid, holding a couple-three senior training classes to reinforce Level I and teach some additional things. Instead of sending a new member a link to the LMS and saying 'Here ya go. Login to eServices and do it... Somewhere in there. I think. Maybe.'  How about some coaching and mentoring. Some face to face interaction?  It doesn't have to be the old 4 hours of Level I with donuts routine, but you shouldn't abrogate your ability to correctly train your people just because its online now."


Quote
I guess one of my concerns with the older member in the OP is, why is he a member and even showing up?  I think he needs something out of CAP, but what, I don't know.  Maybe belonging to something bigger than him?  Maybe he wants to help, but is confused and scared of the technology?  National has thrown a lot of technology at us without much actual training.  Has he been a contributor is years past?  Did he successfully run a Squadron for 10-15 years?  Doe she have a need to be told he matters to somebody?  I don't know, but if he is truly as unhappy as you say, I would think he would wander off and find other things to do.  Maybe he stays because it is just a matter of loyalty to the Corps?  I don't know, but I do know he isn't stopping someone else from being in Group just because he is.  If he sits in the corner and doesn't make waves, is he hurting anyone?  Maybe he is like the 50% of the Corps that really doesn't do anything but show up?  I don't think he needs to be removed or scorned or stoned.  Put him in the corner and give him a cracker occasionally.  At least he is paying his dues.  As Usual, JMHO.

Give him a way to get reimbursed and make him the DAO (domestic affairs officer.. what we used to call the guy who was in charge of food and such for activities) for your group.  Coordinating that kind of service support is a job he can do and its an important job that you can assign to someone who isn't as savvy on other more technically demanding things (remember I jokingly said "SnackO?"  I guess I wasn't joking as hard as I thought) . 

Need donuts for the next Level I? Hey, Capt Bagodonuts can do that.  Group event that requires a barbeque?  Capt Bagodonuts, can you coordinate that? Organize some grills, a trip to Sams for burgers and buns, a couple guys to cook them, maybe some cool tactical aprons?  Group SAREX?  We want to pay for a catered lunch..



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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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AirAux
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« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2017, 10:23:57 AM »

Thank you Nin, and I think it is a good idea with holding some Level 1 classes.  Geeeshh, you would of thought that maybe, just maybe I would have thought of that.  But noooooo.  Captalk is worthwhile, I don't care what they say!!
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AirAux
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2017, 09:23:16 AM »

Ok, Nin got me all excited to engage again.  I want to do my job better and contribute once again.  Considering Level 1's, is there a way for me to watch the Level 1 presentation so I will be better able to have a meaningful discussion with the newbies?  I have been told that if I watch it using my member ID number that it may replace my Level 1 from long ago with the new date that I would be taking it in order to view it.  I am a little bit technologically challenged, but not entirely and I am willing to learn.  Can someone help me out with this?  As usual, thanks!! 
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jeders
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2017, 09:35:20 AM »

Ok, Nin got me all excited to engage again.  I want to do my job better and contribute once again.  Considering Level 1's, is there a way for me to watch the Level 1 presentation so I will be better able to have a meaningful discussion with the newbies?  I have been told that if I watch it using my member ID number that it may replace my Level 1 from long ago with the new date that I would be taking it in order to view it.  I am a little bit technologically challenged, but not entirely and I am willing to learn.  Can someone help me out with this?  As usual, thanks!!

You can review the Level 1 material, which is CAPP 50-4, at any time. You can access it through the LMS, the national publications page, or the CAP University page.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
AirAux
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2017, 12:58:30 PM »

That does not let me know what they are seeing when they take Level 1 online.  I want to see it as it is so I am comfortable discussing it with them.
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2017, 02:18:39 PM »

Ok, Nin got me all excited to engage again. 


My job here is done ...  :P
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Duty Positions for the Technologically Challenged?
 


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