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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Duty Positions for the Technologically Challenged?
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Author Topic: Duty Positions for the Technologically Challenged?  (Read 3278 times)
kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« on: April 09, 2017, 09:17:01 PM »

Hello CapTalk Hive mind:

I have an older gentlemen on my Group staff who point blank refuses to get with the times. What are some duty positions that don't use that much technology? I keep thinking of positions, but then I remember that most of that job is on eServices (Admin, Personnel, etc.)

Bear in mind that this is the type of guy that does not answer emails, and will basically only call when contact is wanted to be made. It's crazy annoying, and fairly frustrating for a younger CC who is trying to modernize.


So...thoughts??
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,065

« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2017, 09:22:03 PM »

So...thoughts??

30 Days to find a new Squadron.

At the Group level everything is remote, there's no way to manage it any other way,
and no staff jobs, other then "assistant to" that can be done any more by someone
who can't be bothered.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2017, 09:36:45 PM »

I would love to boot him to a subordinate unit. However, it would seem that no one "wants" him. He's also the type to be a thorn in peoples' sides (not the motivational kind, the infected kind.)
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2017, 09:41:00 PM »

Your answer is on this page, you just don't like it.

Someone like this probably wound up at Group to start with because no one
wanted to have the conversation, so now he's parked there.

If he can't "do" tech, then the only place he's going to have any success or pleasant time
is at a squadron doing some wrench turning with cadets, probably.

If he can't or won't do that, then better to just have a sit-down, maybe with a Form 40
and lay it out.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,682
Unit: of issue

« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 10:27:26 PM »

Sad to say, there are few jobs at the Group level that don't need at least technologically inclined members.

Combat Boot Counter? SnackO?

I mean, seriously, you can't even be a Recruiting Officer anymore and not have some technological needs.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2017, 11:29:25 PM »

What staff position is he doing now? Anyone else that can slide into the position and just let him fall off .....
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MS - MO - AP - MP
DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 12:34:00 AM »

CDI.  Pretty much can all be done on paper.  Even the reporting CAPF 34 can be sent through the mail.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2017, 01:28:36 AM »

For CDI, the officer conducting the character development class still has to log the participant credit in eServices, just like the officer conducting PT must log the scores, just as the testing officer must log test scores, and the safety officer must log participation in the mandatory monthly safety meeting.

Unless you can find a unit which has someone who is a dedicated Admin officer who enters all that for him, then he is being/has been left behind by progress.

Two ways to take this: the Trump "you're FIRED" negative way, or, may I suggest, phrasing this as a challenge to him to go back to basics and grow from the need to reinvent himself. I've seen older members take this as a challenge, and rise to the occasion.

V/r
Spam
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2017, 09:32:14 AM »

Eclipse: That's  correct- from what I understand he is a leftover from a now defunct squadron. However, I'm hoping to have the sit down with him at this month's meeting (if we have time.)

NIN: I love that idea. I should have thought of the SnackO!

eTodd: Currently, he is the transportation officer. However, we have had no vehicles, so he's been able to coast as that. Now that we may be getting a vehicle, I know he won't be able to accurately do the job.

DJ Light Chop: I'm going to have to agree with Spam, I don't think CDI would be a good fit for him.

Spam: I may have to pull a Trump if he's unwilling, and I think I'm ready for that.
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2017, 10:19:44 AM »

I wouldn't wait for next month's meeting - better to have the conversations now or as soon as you can.
Next month becomes the next month because he's not there, and then you miss the one after and
the next thing you know the year's digit changes.

For those suggesting CDI, that may sound like a good idea, however not everyone is cut out for
those discussions, many of which involve technology and its use in today's universe, not to
mention whatever unit he moved into might have no interest in his filling that role, and assuming the
answer was / is "yes", all CDI's have to be approved by Wing, Region, and NHQ as well (after the "GoodFella Letter"
and application process) and as mentioned, activity reporting and the Form 34 are now done online, with
the expectations of tracking activities actually higher then for most members.

I would also agree that Transportation for a charter with a vehicle is going to cause problems for the same reasons,
not to mention that even now he's supposed to be making sure the units are doing their required work and
acting as an SME for related issues.   The "supposed to be an SME" part is going to be a problem no matter
what job he might get or maintain at the Group level.

Assuming he's open to being a wrench turner vs. a manager, any "assistant" job could work out, but that also
assumes the primary is interested in having an assistant who needs a special invitation to participate (i.e. a voice call).
That would drive me nuts, personally.  I don't mind kibitzing with another member for an hour to solve the ills
of CAP when I'm on the road or in the late evening when everything on YouTube is a rerun, but when getting
actual work done, it's all quick texts, email, and GSuite Docs.

One place I usually try to steer people not interested in staff roles is as ES ICS staff, but these days that
is as online as ever.

Maybe on the AE side he could help with AEX activities, but a lot of that info is online as well.

If he's not knowledgeable about the ways of the intertubes and is willing to learn, it might be worth the
effort to help him. If he's simply decided "don't know / don't care" then it is what it is.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 12:56:27 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 225

« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2017, 10:44:17 AM »

Sounds like you're looking for something that can be processed on a 2A, when what he needs is to be processed on a 2B.

If he has something in CAP that he truly enjoys doing to serve, he'll do what he needs to become more effective. If he doesn't it's time for him to move on down the road.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2017, 12:37:57 PM »

I'm seeing a generally harsh tone here towards a member whose greatest faults seem to be (a) he's older, with less flexibility to change, and (b) he's a bit of a pest of sorts. I'm not sure that either of those equate to causes to terminate CAP membership under CAPR 35-3 - do y'all? Really?


Sometimes I wonder how CAP can be proclaimed a 501c3 charity, and yet be so uncharitable. As Commanders, we are expected to apply a balance between operational efficiency and humanity - the sensible enforcement of nondiscrimination polices which should shield such older members against the impulse to boot them out: see CAPR 36-1 4 AUGUST 2016 https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf:
"1.3. Title III of the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 provides that no person in the United States shall, on the basis of age, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be otherwise subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance".


Major, your key questions seem to be twofold to me: the first is to find a useful role for the guy, and second to determine if you have a need for that specialty at your (Group) level. I am seeing advice here to simply terminate his membership, rather than answer those questions, which seems a shame to me. So, constructively, how about looking for reasons to find a SOLUTION, rather than ways to flush people?


Finally, here's some more concrete suggestions.
- Start with his training record, coupled with an interview (what skill sets does he have/tasks he is he good at)
- Pull 20-1 and peruse the PDs (position descriptions) and the org charts
- Consider an Assistant role under another, more tech savvy OPR
- In the spirit of Professional Development, challenge him up to grow
- Consider which slots really have low technological requirements (have you thought about Historian, for example)
- However, if he is truly in a primary contributor role requiring mentoring, he needs to be at a Squadron level, not at Group, where expertise and experience is required to assist across units (rather than require assistance).
- Also, if your analysis with him shows that his skill set doesn't match your needs at Group (per 20-1 and your Commanders Guidance), he needs to go to a Squadron.


V/r
Spam


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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2017, 01:02:20 PM »

I guess from my point of view, the question is this, is the member unable to learn or unwilling to learn? If the member simply does not have the knowledge but is willing, then I feel we should help and educate. If the member refuses to learn the job due to technology, then I feel we should not have to hand hold the member. We have to watch what we sell vs. what CAP really is. We need to be upfront with Senior Officers and Cadets/Parents, that internet access and knowledge in essential. People may not like that but it is the truth.

As long as we recruit and retain simply based on numbers for numbers sake, we will, increasingly, have members that are just empty shirts.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 01:11:38 PM by CAPDCCMOM » Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2017, 01:49:36 PM »

Good points. If, after having the discussion of skillsets vs. jobs available at Group level, the member is unwilling/unable to meet job requirements, he needs to be moved to the right slot at a line unit. Groups and Wings are support levels for line units, at a level where expertise is required rather than primary or remedial instruction in a specialty. This is all basic personnel management, really.


If he arrives back at a Squadron, and then is unwilling or unable to learn (say, he's really in a declining mental state due to age), what then? 2B? I'd argue, not until a certain point, and let's not bother debating with these guys ability vs. will (a waste of time - just link their continued status on actual performance of mandatory tasking). If at some point he is simply unable physically to attend unit meetings or participate in mandatory training (for example, mandatory CPPT refreshers on line, which will hit soon for all of us) then the unit/CC needs to have a discussion with him about a natural transition to Patron status.


Remember, in managing expectations for new members, cadets and adults are very different: cadets swear to "advance their training and education rapidly", where the adult CAPF12 oath of membership doesn't require equivalent progression in PD. I've had IG types (of which I'm one now, sadly) over the decades try to write up discrepancies for a few "permanent LTs" who go on serving admirably year after year without any need to earn advanced ratings, or promote. If your definition of a good unit excludes members who can only participate marginally at the limit of their capability, within the limit of their comfort, and within the limit of their finances, then (from my perspective) you're ruling out recycling all that talent. To me (just my opinion) the "empty shirt" label is somewhat insulting, frankly... everyone should be viewed as a potential contributor in the margin, until they reach the point where, as I say, we have to have them shift to Patron status (where even then, they might return).


Inclusiveness and diversity is a be-yatch, ain't it?    :)


V/r
Spam
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CAPDCCMOM
Seasoned Member

Posts: 244

« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2017, 02:03:18 PM »

^^^ Great points Spam!!! I was just having this conversation with a fellow SO the other day. What about the Senior Member, that has ben active for a very long time and health declines, maybe age related issues or something like that. This member can not do what they once did, but CAP is the only social outlet, perhaps the one thing this person looks forward to all week. Do we kick that person to the curb, I would say absolutely not!!!!

All things in this case must be case by case I think
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Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,090
Unit: SI

« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2017, 02:55:12 PM »

My .02c

There are literally free classes everywhere to learn computers now.
My local library has a free windows 10 training class.

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2017, 03:23:27 PM »

My .02c

There are literally free classes everywhere to learn computers now.
My local library has a free windows 10 training class.

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"

My .02c

These members do not want to "get with the times". The organization makes some demands from the membership. One of those demands is that have a working knowledge of the technology that is in wide usage. If they can't do that or fail to adapt to the changes, then they really no longer have a place at the table. If they're lacking a basic skill set that the organization needs or requires, it's not CAP's responsibility to get them up to speed.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,065

« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2017, 03:35:26 PM »

Have you considered putting together a technological literacy class for him and helping him "get with the times?"

So that begs the question of the when and who this is supposed to be presented by, and how much
time is supposed to be invested in people who can't be bothered?

CAP doesn't exist in a world where squadrons have 20-30 people with little to do and pet projects
like this have a ready pool of people willing and able to run them.  Most squadrons have barely
the people to get mission-centric tasks accomplished.

CAP may provide avenues for people to work outside their comfort zones and learn new skills,
but adult continuing education, especially in the realm of basic-skills literacy isn't one of them.

On the cadet side of the house, you can make that argument, but on the Senior side, it's about what you
can bring to the table, and if your skillset, aptitudes and / or willingness to expend the effort don't lie within a
fairly narrow lane, then there are plenty of other ways and places that people can serve their communities
outside CAP.

Every hour spent learnifyin' someone on something they don't care enough about to get to on their
own, is one hour less spent on mission-centric activities.

The reality is that there is a percentage of the population who will simply never "get" computers, even many
born inside the "digital age" have cell phones that "flash 12"and they are fine with that, and for those,
job, activities, and opportunities which require those skills simply are not an option, no different from
flying airplanes require one to be a pilot or driving a car requires a driver's license.

That's not "discriminatory" that's reality, and not something CAP has the manpower or capability to affect on
any meaningful level.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,682
Unit: of issue

« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2017, 04:05:59 PM »

My .02c

These members do not want to "get with the times". The organization makes some demands from the membership. One of those demands is that have a working knowledge of the technology that is in wide usage. If they can't do that or fail to adapt to the changes, then they really no longer have a place at the table. If they're lacking a basic skill set that the organization needs or requires, it's not CAP's responsibility to get them up to speed.

What do you say to the pilot who says "Sorry, I don't want to talk on the radio.." or "I'm never getting in that new-fangled glass cockpit thingy..", right?

"Hey, Bob, we need someone to fly an ELT search right now.. Are you available?"

"Sure I am, I'm retired! But wing just rotated one of those fancy glass cockpit planes to our airport and I refuse to fly it, so I'm not checked out."

"Nevermind, I'll call Tom."

"Tom's on vacation."

"*sigh*"

the world is changing and evolving. These same kinds of people proudly march around and tell you they have a flip phone and they don't see why nobody would need nothing else while the rest of us could kind of sorta darn near run a squadron off an internet-enabled tablet (if we could get Internet).

One night during one of our recruiting presentations about using technology to maintain your recruiting pool, I was monitoring the questions via the YouTube Live chat while our presenter was doing his thing, and one gent asked "Why can't we just use paper? that always worked in the past." 

*facepalm*

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2017, 05:09:20 PM »

So, what did you answer, to that comment?

V/r
Spam

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