Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 12, 2017, 03:52:46 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Print
Author Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers  (Read 8875 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #80 on: April 18, 2017, 10:03:19 AM »

With that said, an online UCC will potentially reduce or remove local flavor, nuance, and policies, etc., from discussions, ...

I could argue that this is a good thing. Let's cut out the wing crap and assemble the best leaders we can get our hands on from across the country, and train commanders up. Wings will always beat local stuff into their people effectively on their own.

I agree, but as long as the wing cr..."customizations"...are allowed to continue, training people to a national standard that isn't workable locally
it just potentially makes things worse.

The flip side is that if you start training people properly the "customizations" will die organically, however that puts the change on a geologic timeline
CAP may well not outlive given the current trends.

Further, the lack of any requirement to complete the UCC before assuming command really takes the teeth out of its utility.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 754

« Reply #81 on: April 18, 2017, 10:15:23 AM »


Further, the lack of any requirement to complete the UCC before assuming command really takes the teeth out of its utility.

That is something that I never understood.  You have a course on how to be a unit commander but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.  In my short time in CAP I have seen quite a number of commander complete their 4 years and never attended UCC. 

We make CPPT mandatory for those working with cadet so they understand the rules yet we don't put a similar requirement on commanders to understand the rules of their position.  Also, you can learn a lot in UCC about how to be a more efficient CC.  If we made this course mandatory it would definitely help those struggling with command and may also take some of the negative stigma that becoming a CC in CAP carries.
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2017, 12:26:09 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2017, 12:29:01 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

That's what I thought too. It wasn't a prerequisite to assuming command, but it had to be done in the first 12 months. Don't have a cite, but will dig in a bit...
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,620

« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2017, 12:31:58 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

Maybe, but considering the last time I can find that one was actually offered in our wing was Summer 2015, that seems like a moot point.

You can require whatever you want but if it's not offered then there's no point. You still need commanders.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2017, 12:38:57 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

Maybe, but considering the last time I can find that one was actually offered in our wing was Summer 2015, that seems like a moot point.

You can require whatever you want but if it's not offered then there's no point. You still need commanders.

That was part of the rationale for offering an online version. It is in theory much easier to access and administer.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2017, 12:41:29 PM »

UCC is not, and never has been required, for a command appointment either before or after appointment.

Some wings indicate it as a local requirement, or preference for consideration, but in the words of ICENINE
"Its good to want things".

It is not (or wasn't) an inspectable item during an SUI, and the only mention of it in the Command specialty track
is as an activity for course credit.

The only requirement for Command is membership in good standing, and presence, with the latter sometimes being waived as well.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 924

« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2017, 12:55:04 PM »


I absolutely agree. There is way too much "check the box" and not enough teaching/instructing/mentoring. A 2-day class on "how to be a leader in the Cadet Program" is not going to make you a manager of cadets, period, plain and simple, cut and dry. The same goes for "higher education" toward officership (I'm referring to CAP "education," not collegiate).

There is a heck of a lot of subject matter being crammed into a very short time frame to minds that will barely remember any of it, often taught by people who have no practical experience outside of a classroom.

And I absolutely agree with you that taking a 1 or 2-day Training Leaders of Cadets course is nowhere near enough to train a competent CP officer.  Which is why there is a whole lot more to the specialty track training than the schoolhouse classes.

Take a look at CAPP 216, Cadet Programs Specialty Track Study Guide, which describes our comprehensive training program which includes a whole lot of mentoring, "knowledge, training, and performance requirements," service requirements, as well as those dreaded schoolhouse courses. 

So the Good News is -- at least for CP -- is that we fully realize is that job competence requires more than "check the box" classes.

The Specialty Track "training" for a CP Tech is a joke. Okay, maybe that's a bit harsh. Perhaps it outlines the general "you should knows" of the Cadet Program, but it's minimal at best as far as not only teaching/training cadets but learning from them as well, not to mention that I find so many people closely intertwined with the Cadet Program that really have no prior concept/understanding of the things cadets do (drill, uniform inspections, courtesies, various training subject matter), especially in units where the the roster is smaller with lesser experienced senior members and poor turnover rates. It takes a lot to really get things moving, and sustained.

Some of the other Specialty Tracks are very similar, from what I've seen, in their own realm. But, really, overall, it's like the professional development communities tries to make it all work, but doesn't quite get there. And I get it: limited resources. It's tough. I don't envy the people who constantly get the feedback, to include the criticisms. But I think, from my own experiences, from talking to people, and just general observations over the past couple of years that I've been in CAP, most, and I use that word emphatically, have minimal knowledge as they progress and have had very little oversight of their progression by their peers/superiors. To use a blunt term: they're clueless.

You will always have people who don't try. They'll always exist. But then you do have those people who want to learn, and need some hand-holding to help them get there. Some may be very good on their own, but you don't want to turn anyone loose, even if they seem to "naturally get it," because they may stray off and learn the wrong way, and they may pick up on misinformation that could be detrimental to their development. If you had more people brought up through structure, then you could rely on those people, as they span out, to hold to that structure and try to bring people up further the way they learned, rather than handing them off to the "next guy," if at all.

I always ask:
How many of us had to learn on our own?

I'll go a step further:
How many of us learned from someone who obviously had no clue, and really didn't help the training process?


UCC is not, and never has been required, for a command appointment either before or after appointment.

Some wings indicate it as a local requirement, or preference for consideration, but in the words of ICENINE
"Its good to want things".

It is not (or wasn't) an inspectable item during an SUI, and the only mention of it in the Command specialty track
is as an activity for course credit.

The only requirement for Command is membership in good standing, and presence, with the latter sometimes being waived as well.

Here's a question: Do you feel the majority of those who have taken UCC, as intended to serve as unit commanders at the squadron level, greatly benefited from the course, or, for the most part, learned stuff that maybe they could have simply found if they read the regulations?
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »

Here's a question: Do you feel the majority of those who have taken UCC, as intended to serve as unit commanders at the squadron level, greatly benefited from the course, or, for the most part, learned stuff that maybe they could have simply found if they read the regulations?

The latter.

There are usually 3 lights-on moments, and two "oh poops" when you find out someone's "best practice"
has been banned for a decade, but on the mean you're not going to "fix" people who have already been in
CAP for several years and are either performing properly, or not all that interested, and the majority of participants
sit politely, take copious notes, and go right back to whatever their SOP was at their second unit meeting
(the first meeting after UCC is taken up by the attendee telling everyone all they are doing wrong, generally
met by crickets.)

Same goes for the specialty tracks, which are intended to be progressive and indicate a path to successful performance,
but are generally done as afterthoughts when a person hits their TIG clock.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 190
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2017, 01:26:30 PM »

Here's a question: Do you feel the majority of those who have taken UCC, as intended to serve as unit commanders at the squadron level, greatly benefited from the course, or, for the most part, learned stuff that maybe they could have simply found if they read the regulations?

Didn't help me one bit (admittedly, this was like 6 years ago now and several years before I assumed squadron command).

This is a far more useful bit of material than anything I walked away with from UCC:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au/smith.pdf
Logged
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,823

« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2017, 01:47:03 PM »

Unfortunately, the quality of Professional Development program delivery is hit or miss. I’ve endured days of Death By PowerPoint, weekends spent crammed into hard wooden chairs with no elbow room, and presenters with the personality of day-old fish.

On the other hand, I’ve attended some outstanding training led by dynamic SMEs that really had their stuff together and did a great job of engaging everyone.

The “check the box” requirement for members to serve as presenters or course directors is largely responsible for poor quality. Having unqualified members instructing others is doing them a disservice, but we’re holding members back if we don’t.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,065

« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2017, 01:51:13 PM »

"Meh, I looked at the materials, but I'd rather talk about myself..."

And then he did...for 45 minutes...

A direct quote from one of my first classes at my first SLS for which I had to drive 6 hours and two RONs to attend.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 924

« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2017, 02:00:56 PM »

Here's a question: Do you feel the majority of those who have taken UCC, as intended to serve as unit commanders at the squadron level, greatly benefited from the course, or, for the most part, learned stuff that maybe they could have simply found if they read the regulations?

Didn't help me one bit (admittedly, this was like 6 years ago now and several years before I assumed squadron command).

This is a far more useful bit of material than anything I walked away with from UCC:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au/smith.pdf

Kudos on the link. I scoped through it briefly, and I really want to sit down and give this a thorough read through.

Unfortunately, the quality of Professional Development program delivery is hit or miss. I’ve endured days of Death By PowerPoint, weekends spent crammed into hard wooden chairs with no elbow room, and presenters with the personality of day-old fish.

On the other hand, I’ve attended some outstanding training led by dynamic SMEs that really had their stuff together and did a great job of engaging everyone.

The “check the box” requirement for members to serve as presenters or course directors is largely responsible for poor quality. Having unqualified members instructing others is doing them a disservice, but we’re holding members back if we don’t.

Absolutely, positively no disagreement there.



"Meh, I looked at the materials, but I'd rather talk about myself..."

And then he did...for 45 minutes...

A direct quote from one of my first classes at my first SLS for which I had to drive 6 hours and two RONs to attend.

That's every class...
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2017, 02:09:46 PM »

Here's a question: Do you feel the majority of those who have taken UCC, as intended to serve as unit commanders at the squadron level, greatly benefited from the course, or, for the most part, learned stuff that maybe they could have simply found if they read the regulations?

Didn't help me one bit (admittedly, this was like 6 years ago now and several years before I assumed squadron command).

This is a far more useful bit of material than anything I walked away with from UCC:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/au/smith.pdf

Yep. And General Goldfein's book. It's been a long time, and they are still part of my library.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 190
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2017, 02:13:39 PM »


Absolutely, positively no disagreement there.


The Basic Instructors Course should be required of anyone before they ever step foot in front of students, whether ES, AE, CP, or senior member PD.
Logged
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2017, 04:18:12 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

Maybe, but considering the last time I can find that one was actually offered in our wing was Summer 2015, that seems like a moot point.

You can require whatever you want but if it's not offered then there's no point. You still need commanders.


I've been part of two UCCs in ILWG in 2016/2017
Logged
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,620

« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2017, 04:21:28 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

Maybe, but considering the last time I can find that one was actually offered in our wing was Summer 2015, that seems like a moot point.

You can require whatever you want but if it's not offered then there's no point. You still need commanders.


I've been part of two UCCs in ILWG in 2016/2017

Then word isn't getting out (or maybe I didn't retain the email, sometimes I'm wrong). I have a single email about one that was scheduled for January looking for instructors but no follow up for student registrations.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 924

« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2017, 04:32:05 PM »

but it is not a requirement before assuming command or within a certain time period after assuming command.


IIRC, you need to do UCC within 12 months of taking command?

Maybe, but considering the last time I can find that one was actually offered in our wing was Summer 2015, that seems like a moot point.

You can require whatever you want but if it's not offered then there's no point. You still need commanders.


I've been part of two UCCs in ILWG in 2016/2017

Then word isn't getting out (or maybe I didn't retain the email, sometimes I'm wrong). I have a single email about one that was scheduled for January looking for instructors but no follow up for student registrations.

I know we're required in OHWG to take UCC within a certain timeframe of becoming a Commander. I don't know what that is, or where it came from (and frankly, I've never looked it up). If that's bad gouge floating around, so be it.

It does seem to be common thought that UCC doesn't "teach" you to be a Commander. I know my Commander said he appreciated some of the discussions, and did have those "oh poop" moments. But, overall, he said he was fairly disappointed in the fact that a great deal of that course was talking policy and not practice. He said the same as our Recruiting Officer/PAO when he walked into a recruiting class, and said 20 minutes into the class, he had to ask "This is the recruiting forum, right?" Apparently, they talked for those first 20 minutes as if they were catching up with people they knew. That's a big issue for people who take training seriously and are there to really learn from the class.

I walked away with a lot of information from TLC about how I could fix things at my unit, mostly because I had a hunch that there was a lot of "no no, don't do that" practices going on. As a new officer, and somewhat thrown into the lion's den as CDC, I needed to discuss my concerns with people and figure out if I was going down the wrong path with what I believed and what I wanted to change. When I sat in SLS, it was more of the same, but I saw a huge disconnect in the class between the different levels of people in CAP, and those with varying years of experience, who I don't think got a whole lot from the course. Again, everything was Cadet Program-based, and that seems to be the norm because composite squadrons often spend so much time looking toward their Cadet Program and neglect the other side of the house. I'm not sure anyone walked away from that class with an idea of how to be an officer, but more so a member of a project team. It's not that there wasn't good information in the class. Just, as someone who spent time in officer training classes, I expected a lot of refreshers from my earlier days and a lot of "officer" subject matter, which I really don't feel like I saw.

I still reference my old textbooks and PowerPoint slides as my go-to, and that's some of the subject matter I try to pass on to my cadets, some of whom I think could lead circles around some of the senior members I've seen, including field grade officers.

Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,077
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2017, 06:11:31 PM »


Absolutely, positively no disagreement there.


The Basic Instructors Course should be required of anyone before they ever step foot in front of students, whether ES, AE, CP, or senior member PD.

Riiight.

Here's the course description (emphasis mine):
Quote
The Basic Instructor Course is intended to provide Civil Air Patrol members a reference for instruction. The course consist of approximately 20 pages of reading and a quiz. To get credit for the course, you have to score a minimum of 80 percent on the quiz. The quiz is open book and consist of 25 multiple choice and true/false questions.

The Navy spent 4 weeks training me to be an instructor. It was the hardest course I took while in the Navy. We had a couple of quizzes a week, and about 40% of our course work was practical - standing in front of "students" and presenting courseware. Another 15% or so was building courseware (group-paced classroom type). We spent almost as much time after hours doing homework as we spent in the classroom.

The thing CAP offers (I decline to call it a course) is a farce, and at best gives someone a false sense of security on their ability to teach a CAP course. It gets no positive recommendation from me.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2017, 06:19:11 PM »

In one of my former wings, we had an internal Train the Trainer program. It was overseen by a college prof who taught methods of instruction, how to build curriculum, lots of practical delivery as both a lead and assistant instructor, how to teach to different age groups, as well as development on how to be the SME in your topic.

It lasted six months of weekends, as well as homework at the local unit.

You cannot learn to teach by watching a powerpoint and taking a short quiz.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.466 seconds with 20 queries.