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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
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Author Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers  (Read 8006 times)
walter1975
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: MER-VA-084

« Reply #60 on: April 11, 2017, 01:15:39 PM »

With all due respect to the senior NCO in CAP who said online education would cheapen the value of education in CAP, he is ill-informed and living in a way past era.  The train left the station two decades ago.  Every major university in the United States and a substantial number in other countries offers or is working to offer online education - if it is good enough for Harvard University, which offers online learning in all of its significant schools and centers, then surely it is good enough for CAP.  Or does the NCO have a degree from Harvard so that he can make the comparison that CAP training is better than a Harvard degree?  All insistence on on-site bricks and mortar education does is perpetuate the myth that you need butts in seats to justify the cost of physical plant - a standard argument at my university was that online programs would reduce the number of people eating in the dining hall ...

Bottom line - if you want a trained membership, you offer training in a way that the members can access it.  Anything else would seem to make very little sense and to be an impediment to organizational progress.
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SM Walter G. Green III, CAP
Finance Officer
Group 4, Virginia Wing
Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 187
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2017, 02:11:44 PM »

With all due respect to the senior NCO in CAP who said online education would cheapen the value of education in CAP, he is ill-informed and living in a way past era.  The train left the station two decades ago.  Every major university in the United States and a substantial number in other countries offers or is working to offer online education - if it is good enough for Harvard University, which offers online learning in all of its significant schools and centers, then surely it is good enough for CAP.  Or does the NCO have a degree from Harvard so that he can make the comparison that CAP training is better than a Harvard degree?  All insistence on on-site bricks and mortar education does is perpetuate the myth that you need butts in seats to justify the cost of physical plant - a standard argument at my university was that online programs would reduce the number of people eating in the dining hall ...

Bottom line - if you want a trained membership, you offer training in a way that the members can access it.  Anything else would seem to make very little sense and to be an impediment to organizational progress.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043

« Reply #62 on: April 11, 2017, 02:21:14 PM »

While there is something to be said about the networking made possible that takes place during an "in-residence" course, I have participated in several on-line courses that were very beneficial -- as well as on-line courses where video-conferencing through several apps were used (Though residing in CA, I did my TLC course with the AKWG via video conferencing a few years ago.  It was a great experience.).  Time and distance plays a big factor in training for our CAP members....and I am all for providing our members the necessary tools/training in whatever method meets their needs.
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,043

« Reply #63 on: April 11, 2017, 02:22:03 PM »

With all due respect to the senior NCO in CAP who said online education would cheapen the value of education in CAP, he is ill-informed and living in a way past era.  The train left the station two decades ago.  Every major university in the United States and a substantial number in other countries offers or is working to offer online education - if it is good enough for Harvard University, which offers online learning in all of its significant schools and centers, then surely it is good enough for CAP.  Or does the NCO have a degree from Harvard so that he can make the comparison that CAP training is better than a Harvard degree?  All insistence on on-site bricks and mortar education does is perpetuate the myth that you need butts in seats to justify the cost of physical plant - a standard argument at my university was that online programs would reduce the number of people eating in the dining hall ...

Bottom line - if you want a trained membership, you offer training in a way that the members can access it.  Anything else would seem to make very little sense and to be an impediment to organizational progress.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

^^^ Joining you  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,110

« Reply #64 on: April 11, 2017, 02:33:25 PM »

Every major university in the United States and a substantial number in other countries offers or is working to offer online education - if it is good enough for Harvard University, which offers online learning in all of its significant schools and centers, then surely it is good enough for CAP. 

To be fair, major universities still believe strongly in the "in person" education as well.  Including Harvard.

There is an active conversation about the kinds of classes and courses of study that are best conducted on-line or in person.  And it may well be that CAP's PD classes could be taught entirely by distance learning, or some combination of both methods.  I would like to see us develop a distance learning version of RST, for instance, and then field-test it (if that is the right term) and compare with the results from the traditional version.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,894

« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2017, 02:36:12 PM »

Gotta +1 that as well, especially the last line, and this is >not< the state of CAP today,
nor has it been in the reasonable past.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,894

« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2017, 02:38:03 PM »

There is an active conversation about the kinds of classes and courses of study that are best conducted on-line or in person.  And it may well be that CAP's PD classes could be taught entirely by distance learning, or some combination of both methods.  I would like to see us develop a distance learning version of RST, for instance, and then field-test it (if that is the right term) and compare with the results from the traditional version.

And sometime in 2025 the company that buys CAP's remaining assets can roll it out.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2017, 11:07:25 AM »

And in a >lot< of cases, the inability to attend RSC or NSC isn't due to the member not being fully invested,
it's because they >are< fully invested and are already burning that vacation time (or kitchen pass) on encampments,
flight academies, NESA, or similar activities, not to mention running squadrons and the like.

As much as I dislike waivers, special appointments, and mission skills promotions, there ought to be a way for
members with relevent experience to get credit towards various PD.

Served X number of years as Unit CC, Group CC, running major activities, or primary in staff jobs or key roles?
The SLS/CLC/RSC or even NSC waivers should be on the table.  No one who has served successfully as a Unit CC
is going to get much out of SLS or CLC - that train left the station when someone decided it was OK for
a member without those sessions to be appointed as CC in the first place, yet far too many Unit CCs get stuck
on their own, well-deserved promotions, because they didn't take the time to "get theirs while everyone else was...".

They wait until they "have time", which generally means after they step down, and then get the "Well you're clearly
stepping back..." speech, which is 100%,  Grade A fertilizer in a CAP paradigm.

CAP will punch a ticket as high as Major for a newb with the right degree but zero relevent CAP experience, but
there's no allowance for members actually running things. That's not right.

Amen, I believe waivers on PD Level and Rank should be Authorized to. Especially if you are a Military Retiree that took an NCO Course, or Maybe a Member with a Bachelors or Master Degree and Ex Military.. I am sure what you learn at RSC,NSC is the Same... I took SLS, I learned how CAP Worked... I don't think I need CLC, RSC ,or NSC for that matter. Of Course, you will have members that don't fit that criteria... but if they have proven leadership, loyalty, have the experience and Ribbons to prove it... why not?
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.

SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,016
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2017, 05:38:27 PM »

Amen, I believe waivers on PD Level and Rank should be Authorized to. Especially if you are a Military Retiree that took an NCO Course, or Maybe a Member with a Bachelors or Master Degree and Ex Military.. I am sure what you learn at RSC,NSC is the Same... I took SLS, I learned how CAP Worked... I don't think I need CLC, RSC ,or NSC for that matter. Of Course, you will have members that don't fit that criteria... but if they have proven leadership, loyalty, have the experience and Ribbons to prove it... why not?

I presume that you are basing your statement on your USN leadership experience. I think that's a poor assumption on your part.

As a long-time CAP member, and a retired PO1, I have found that even that level of USN leadership experience comes nowhere close to the level of knowledge imparted by CLC, RSC, and NSC. Some of the more broad CLC material is a carry-over from the Navy, but much of what is presented in all three courses is CAP specific, and is material that RealMilitary™ officers may not get as a part of their training.

I have retired naval  and AF officers (O-6, O-5, O-4, O-4)  in my unit, and all of them have remarked on the value of SLS, CLC, and RSC over and above their military leadership training.

CAP does give waivers of specific CAP courses based on corresponding level military courses, but it never hurts to do the CAP stuff, too.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 358
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2017, 10:00:48 AM »

With all due respect to the senior NCO in CAP who said online education would cheapen the value of education in CAP, he is ill-informed and living in a way past era.  The train left the station two decades ago.  Every major university in the United States and a substantial number in other countries offers or is working to offer online education - if it is good enough for Harvard University, which offers online learning in all of its significant schools and centers, then surely it is good enough for CAP.  Or does the NCO have a degree from Harvard so that he can make the comparison that CAP training is better than a Harvard degree?  All insistence on on-site bricks and mortar education does is perpetuate the myth that you need butts in seats to justify the cost of physical plant - a standard argument at my university was that online programs would reduce the number of people eating in the dining hall ...

Bottom line - if you want a trained membership, you offer training in a way that the members can access it.  Anything else would seem to make very little sense and to be an impediment to organizational progress.

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

Adding to you and Chappie!
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Devil Doc
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 846
Unit: MER-NC-162

« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2017, 03:33:03 PM »

Amen, I believe waivers on PD Level and Rank should be Authorized to. Especially if you are a Military Retiree that took an NCO Course, or Maybe a Member with a Bachelors or Master Degree and Ex Military.. I am sure what you learn at RSC,NSC is the Same... I took SLS, I learned how CAP Worked... I don't think I need CLC, RSC ,or NSC for that matter. Of Course, you will have members that don't fit that criteria... but if they have proven leadership, loyalty, have the experience and Ribbons to prove it... why not?

I presume that you are basing your statement on your USN leadership experience. I think that's a poor assumption on your part.

As a long-time CAP member, and a retired PO1, I have found that even that level of USN leadership experience comes nowhere close to the level of knowledge imparted by CLC, RSC, and NSC. Some of the more broad CLC material is a carry-over from the Navy, but much of what is presented in all three courses is CAP specific, and is material that RealMilitary™ officers may not get as a part of their training.

I have retired naval  and AF officers (O-6, O-5, O-4, O-4)  in my unit, and all of them have remarked on the value of SLS, CLC, and RSC over and above their military leadership training.

CAP does give waivers of specific CAP courses based on corresponding level military courses, but it never hurts to do the CAP stuff, too.

I mean that is true, However, I didn't learn anything new in USN Leadership. I never went to an NCO Academy. I learned Leadership from 2 Years in  NJROTC and 3 Years in AJROTC. I still have my leadership books.
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Captain Brandon P. Smith CAP
Former HM3, U.S NAVY
Too many Awards, Achievments and Qualifications to list.

Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2017, 04:33:04 PM »

Amen, I believe waivers on PD Level and Rank should be Authorized to. Especially if you are a Military Retiree that took an NCO Course, or Maybe a Member with a Bachelors or Master Degree and Ex Military.. I am sure what you learn at RSC,NSC is the Same... I took SLS, I learned how CAP Worked... I don't think I need CLC, RSC ,or NSC for that matter. Of Course, you will have members that don't fit that criteria... but if they have proven leadership, loyalty, have the experience and Ribbons to prove it... why not?

I presume that you are basing your statement on your USN leadership experience. I think that's a poor assumption on your part.

As a long-time CAP member, and a retired PO1, I have found that even that level of USN leadership experience comes nowhere close to the level of knowledge imparted by CLC, RSC, and NSC. Some of the more broad CLC material is a carry-over from the Navy, but much of what is presented in all three courses is CAP specific, and is material that RealMilitary™ officers may not get as a part of their training.

I have retired naval  and AF officers (O-6, O-5, O-4, O-4)  in my unit, and all of them have remarked on the value of SLS, CLC, and RSC over and above their military leadership training.

CAP does give waivers of specific CAP courses based on corresponding level military courses, but it never hurts to do the CAP stuff, too.

I mean that is true, However, I didn't learn anything new in USN Leadership. I never went to an NCO Academy. I learned Leadership from 2 Years in  NJROTC and 3 Years in AJROTC. I still have my leadership books.


I'll be honest, the CAP leadership books don't prepare you to lead SMs. Nor do the CAP Courses. Do they give some interesting concepts to use in planning and such? Sure. But are they of some great value? Nah.


TLC is just about the best course I've taken/taught/director'd so far. The discussions, ideas, networking are an awesome bonus.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,016
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2017, 07:42:40 PM »

I mean that is true, However, I didn't learn anything new in USN Leadership. I never went to an NCO Academy. I learned Leadership from 2 Years in  NJROTC and 3 Years in AJROTC. I still have my leadership books.

And therein lies a key part of the discussion - the 'O' for officer. Now your commentary is more relevant. I still see a need for CAP-specific PD courses, though, because they tailor the content to our dual status as the USAF Auxiliary (the quasi-military part), and as a federally chartered non-profit corporation.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 872

« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2017, 04:48:49 PM »

As someone who works at one of the top public universities in the nation in online education, CAP could convert all of the PD courses to quality online courses. Note the use of the word "quality" which is not dropping a PowerPoint on a webpage with a simple quiz and calling it a day. I mean, let's hire a someone with proper training in instructional design and use a real learning management system and let's do this right. The amount of money to do this right is a drop in the bucket in terms of the volunteer time that is lost when devoted members pop smoke and exfil.

I absolutely agree. There is way too much "check the box" and not enough teaching/instructing/mentoring. A 2-day class on "how to be a leader in the Cadet Program" is not going to make you a manager of cadets, period, plain and simple, cut and dry. The same goes for "higher education" toward officership (I'm referring to CAP "education," not collegiate).

There is a heck of a lot of subject matter being crammed into a very short time frame to minds that will barely remember any of it, often taught by people who have no practical experience outside of a classroom.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,110

« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2017, 05:28:30 PM »


I absolutely agree. There is way too much "check the box" and not enough teaching/instructing/mentoring. A 2-day class on "how to be a leader in the Cadet Program" is not going to make you a manager of cadets, period, plain and simple, cut and dry. The same goes for "higher education" toward officership (I'm referring to CAP "education," not collegiate).

There is a heck of a lot of subject matter being crammed into a very short time frame to minds that will barely remember any of it, often taught by people who have no practical experience outside of a classroom.

And I absolutely agree with you that taking a 1 or 2-day Training Leaders of Cadets course is nowhere near enough to train a competent CP officer.  Which is why there is a whole lot more to the specialty track training than the schoolhouse classes.

Take a look at CAPP 216, Cadet Programs Specialty Track Study Guide, which describes our comprehensive training program which includes a whole lot of mentoring, "knowledge, training, and performance requirements," service requirements, as well as those dreaded schoolhouse courses. 

So the Good News is -- at least for CP -- is that we fully realize is that job competence requires more than "check the box" classes.
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jjmalott
Recruit

Posts: 26
Unit: GLR-IN-193

« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2017, 08:48:24 PM »

Well, I just took part in the beta testing for the online UCC.  I thought Col Aye did an excellent job in providing some tools to help the member step into the unit CC position.  Col Aye has great credentials and has put together a very good course for CAP.
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Jeff Malott, Lt Col, CAP
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 740

« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2017, 10:49:02 PM »

Well, I just took part in the beta testing for the online UCC.  I thought Col Aye did an excellent job in providing some tools to help the member step into the unit CC position.  Col Aye has great credentials and has put together a very good course for CAP.

She's awesome
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,894

« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2017, 10:57:06 PM »

CAP is desperately in need of an effective UCC, so any steps in that direction are sorely needed and should be
appreciated.

With that said, an online UCC will potentially reduce or remove local flavor, nuance, and policies, etc., from discussions,
and in most cases those are the most important parts of any of the in-face schools.  Members don't need 45 minutes on
writing a letter to request hangar space, they need to know that the Wing requires triplicate hardcopies to approve unit meetings.

And UCC, good, bad, or otherwise, doesn't really have any affect on promotions, per se, since UCC isn't required for anything,
including command, and Wings are so all over the road with expectations that anything "national" will just potentially confuse things more.

Along with the the effort being done to white-out and re-scan the document numbers, and re-vamping various classes, CAP needs a class for
Wing CC Charm School on "The Art of Reading and Following Regulations Without Embellishment".
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 12:30:45 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #78 on: April 18, 2017, 09:12:04 AM »

With that said, an online UCC will potentially reduce or remove local flavor, nuance, and policies, etc., from discussions, ...

I could argue that this is a good thing. Let's cut out the wing crap and assemble the best leaders we can get our hands on from across the country, and train commanders up. Wings will always beat local stuff into their people effectively on their own.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Papabird
Forum Regular

Posts: 115
Unit: SER-GA-112

« Reply #79 on: April 18, 2017, 09:32:05 AM »

I could argue that this is a good thing. Let's cut out the wing crap and assemble the best leaders we can get our hands on from across the country, and train commanders up. Wings will always beat local stuff into their people effectively on their own.

Or they can get Group CCs to do the beating.   >:D :o
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Michael Willis, Lt. Col CAP
Gwinnett Composite Squadron - Here to serve
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
 


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