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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
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Author Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers  (Read 8881 times)
Flymetothemoon
Recruit

Posts: 11

« on: April 01, 2017, 02:32:48 AM »

Iím wondering, with the new promotion regulation for senior members, if CAP has too many volunteers and they are trying to have a back door RIF and anti-recruitment campaign.  For many people, attaining the higher grades by attending schools and conferences may be quite a financial and time constraint.  As a teacher, I canít take off a week to attend some of the schools at the times they are offered.  Additionally, traveling to these locations is very expensive.  There are no alternate choices such as correspondence courses.  Sure, I can understand that you should put something into it other than waiting out the calendar, but it shouldnít be limited to those with the finances and scheduling flexibility.  Itís a ridiculous barrier theyíve implemented.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 09:10:58 AM »

Iím wondering, with the new promotion regulation for senior members, if CAP has too many volunteers and they are trying to have a back door RIF and anti-recruitment campaign.  For many people, attaining the higher grades by attending schools and conferences may be quite a financial and time constraint.  As a teacher, I canít take off a week to attend some of the schools at the times they are offered.  Additionally, traveling to these locations is very expensive.  There are no alternate choices such as correspondence courses.  Sure, I can understand that you should put something into it other than waiting out the calendar, but it shouldnít be limited to those with the finances and scheduling flexibility.  Itís a ridiculous barrier theyíve implemented.

It depends on what schools you are talking about. There are a number of distance learning alternatives to RSC and NSC.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Briank
Member

Posts: 61
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 01:28:30 PM »

Is promotion a requirement/expected?  I've met a couple 2d Lts who've been in for many years.  Doesn't seem to be impacting their ability to serve.
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Flymetothemoon
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 01:29:29 PM »

What are the alternatives?  Are these correspondence courses?
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Flymetothemoon
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 01:38:59 PM »

I have seen positions at wing level having the requirement of Maj or Lt.Col for rank.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,066

« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 03:40:07 PM »

I have seen positions at wing level having the requirement preference of Maj or Lt.Col for rank.

There are no staff positions at any level which have a grade requirement, other then by reg now National Commanders, etc.

Given the lack of the preferred grade, roles are filled by those available.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SAREXinNY
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: NER-NY

« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 04:16:52 PM »

What are the alternatives?  Are these correspondence courses?

Yes sir, they are correspondence courses taken from the comfort of your own home, in your pajamas if you like.  I've taken a couple.  They aren't easy, particularly if you do not have a military background.  I'd suggest talking to your squadron/group PDO.  They can fill you in on the specifics.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,066

« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 05:13:22 PM »

Unfortunately these are no longer open to everyone.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2017, 05:30:14 PM »

I have seen positions at wing level having the requirement preference of Maj or Lt.Col for rank.

There are no staff positions at any level which have a grade requirement, other then by reg now National Commanders, etc.

Given the lack of the preferred grade, roles are filled by those available.

Strongly concur with Eclipse here (see, Bob, it can happen)!!  ::)

We "hire" people based on talent, time, and mindset far more than grade. I'm now participating in that staff screening process again and let me assure you we're NOT discussing grade or rank at all! A servant/leader attitude, a mindset to follow the regs, and the ability to work well with others trumps what is on the shoulder marks by a wide margin (for any sensible Wing staff).

To the original comment, though, we've got a double edged sword here. NHQ is trying to address the problems of "old-boy-'ism" and of promoting advanced PD training for individuals seeking advanced grade by raising the bar on expectations for professional development. However, most of the really valuable, very active and energetic volunteer staff already are (by their nature) committed to producing results in other areas of their lives (hey, how about that turn of a phrase) and can't now commit to a broad level of further training to achieve Level III/IV/V, which becomes a barrier to advanced grade. Its a juggling act to try to hold the line high enough to improve long term corporate volunteer expertise without screening out effective, qualified but busy people.

Would I recommend someone who is a Company grade officer without a BS/BA degree to be a DCP (or some other staff function)? Yep, could be. I might even (hypothetically, in this instance) recommend/select someone who is a LT but is a professional educator over a Lt Col with otherwise limited experience working with adolescents, IF (and only if) that is the right individual for the situation. In that instance, promotion doesn't impose any glass ceiling on job selection.

Also, at the end of the day, the promotions, the bits of cloth and metal, the certificates, and the applause of your fellows are the tangible pay we receive as volunteers (that, and seeing victims of disasters preserved and seeing cadets mature into good citizens). If not through promotions, then we need to remember to find other ways to pay our troops, and pay them well.

V/r
Spam

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SAREXinNY
Forum Regular

Posts: 128
Unit: NER-NY

« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2017, 06:13:22 PM »

Unfortunately these are no longer open to everyone.

Sadly, this is true.  Some people may be stuck at Capt or Maj indefinitely...but the OP did say he/she was a teacher so I assume they at least have a bachelor's degree.
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Flymetothemoon
Recruit

Posts: 11

« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 06:58:28 AM »

So, if in the end the grades mean nothing why even have them?
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 623

« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 07:22:47 AM »

So, if in the end the grades mean nothing why even have them?

Many, many electrons have been spent discussing that. Hit the archives to see the arguments for pro and con.
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RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,925

« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 08:47:13 AM »

Presumably CAP wants as many members as possible to obtain the highest rank possible since presumably that would mean the maximum spread of the information and training that CAP can provide its members.  I would hope that the result of 50% of our members getting to Level 5 (for example) would mean a better CAP overall. 

Now, there are some practical barriers to that which will never be overcome, but CAP should be doing what it can to make it as easy as possible for people to get the training that would improve CAP. 

The barrier that has kept me at Major is the fact that Region Staff College has been held at the same place for probably at least 15 years and is on the other side of a very large Region that would require at least 4 days of driving (to and from) to attend.  I'm just not willing to devote that much drive time to the course.  Why not change it up now and again?  There are other places it could be held.  Heck, you could even do it over a few weekends rather than making people devote a whole work week (and then some) to it.  But, nope.  Too stuck in their ways. 

Yep, there are/were the correspondence courses, but by all accounts they really only provide limited benefit to CAP members, so why should I take them?
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Thonawit
Recruit

Posts: 45

« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 12:39:36 PM »

I will never see Major or above due to the need for Region Staff College. I can not afford the loss of income for the week that I would have to take off. If I am going to take the time off, I am going to spend it with my family, sorry CAP volunteer service only goes so far in some cases. Also for the same reason by PD is done for Safety due to the need for FEMA 300 and 400.
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Regularly contradicts, contradicted CAP Regulations...
Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 05:09:07 PM »

I have seen positions at wing level having the requirement preference of Maj or Lt.Col for rank.

There are no staff positions at any level which have a grade requirement, other then by reg now National Commanders, etc.

Given the lack of the preferred grade, roles are filled by those available.

While it is true that grade requirements may not be required, there are some wing, region and national positions (within the CAP Chaplain Corps) that require completion of Levels 4 and 5.  And completion of those levels in PD are required (along with Time-in-Grade) for advanced grades.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,066

« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 05:28:30 PM »

While it is true that grade requirements may not be required, there are some wing, region and national positions (within the CAP Chaplain Corps) that require completion of Levels 4 and 5.  And completion of those levels in PD are required (along with Time-in-Grade) for advanced grades.

Training and service requirements for Wing, Region, and National Chief of the Chaplains is a preference, not a requirement:

CAPR 265-1 Page 11-13
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf

Wing:
"(4) Wing chaplains should have prior experience as a unit chaplain, be active in the
CAP Chaplain Corps for at least two consecutive years prior to appointment and achieved Level
III in the Senior Member Professional Development Program."


Region:
"(4) To be considered for region chaplain, each candidate should have prior experience
as a wing chaplain or on region chaplain staff, be active in the CAP Chaplain Corps for at least
five consecutive years prior to appointment and achieved Level IV in the Senior Member
Professional Development Program."


National:
"(3) To be considered for chief, each candidate should have prior experience as a region
chaplain or deputy region chaplain, be active in the CAP Chaplain Corps for at least ten
consecutive years prior to appointment and have achieved Level V in the Senior Member
Professional Development Program."


 
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2017, 06:17:13 PM »

While it is true that grade requirements may not be required, there are some wing, region and national positions (within the CAP Chaplain Corps) that require completion of Levels 4 and 5.  And completion of those levels in PD are required (along with Time-in-Grade) for advanced grades.

Training and service requirements for Wing, Region, and National Chief of the Chaplains is a preference, not a requirement:

CAPR 265-1 Page 11-13
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R265_001_538BD6B239386.pdf

Wing:
"(4) Wing chaplains should have prior experience as a unit chaplain, be active in the
CAP Chaplain Corps for at least two consecutive years prior to appointment and achieved Level
III in the Senior Member Professional Development Program."


Region:
"(4) To be considered for region chaplain, each candidate should have prior experience
as a wing chaplain or on region chaplain staff, be active in the CAP Chaplain Corps for at least
five consecutive years prior to appointment and achieved Level IV in the Senior Member
Professional Development Program."


National:
"(3) To be considered for chief, each candidate should have prior experience as a region
chaplain or deputy region chaplain, be active in the CAP Chaplain Corps for at least ten
consecutive years prior to appointment and have achieved Level V in the Senior Member
Professional Development Program."


The "should" is associated with the prior experience as seen by use of the comma rather than a colon or the word "should" prior to word "achieved Level..."
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 06:22:21 PM by Chappie » Logged
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,066

« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2017, 06:43:01 PM »

The "should" is associated with the prior experience as seen by use of the comma rather than a colon or the word "should" prior to word "achieved Level..."

I'm sorry, but that's not how any CAP reg is written and not what it says.  The word "should" indicates the rest of the paragraph is the preference but still
optional, just like every place else it's used in a similar fashion.  If it was otherwise it would say "should...and then will" for the rest".

The comma is for grammatical purposes to separate items in the list, and there should also be one after the word "appointment" in each paragraph.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2017, 07:52:25 PM »

The "should" is associated with the prior experience as seen by use of the comma rather than a colon or the word "should" prior to word "achieved Level..."

I'm sorry, but that's not how any CAP reg is written and not what it says.  The word "should" indicates the rest of the paragraph is the preference but still
optional, just like every place else it's used in a similar fashion.  If it was otherwise it would say "should...and then will" for the rest".

The comma is for grammatical purposes to separate items in the list, and there should also be one after the word "appointment" in each paragraph.

Thanks for your input....the current CAPR 265-1 is in the process of being revised as part of the reengineering project.   Will pass you remarks along to the revision committee for clarification purposes.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 924

« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2017, 10:32:09 AM »

Is promotion a requirement/expected?  I've met a couple 2d Lts who've been in for many years.  Doesn't seem to be impacting their ability to serve.

Fair point.

In CAP, anyone at any grade can server in almost any role. Some posts even come with an automatic promotion eligibility. A 2d Lt who has served in CAP for 10 years can become a Squadron Commander at any time, really. This person can continue to be the Operations Officer with virtually no impact if they keep up on the stuff they should know for the job.

In the military, there are available slots to promote into, and they may not put you into a position until you've reached the rank for it. But if you have to go through a staff college to promote, you'll go as an assignment, not "inconvenient time off, using my vacation."

I have seen positions at wing level having the requirement preference of Maj or Lt.Col for rank.

There are no staff positions at any level which have a grade requirement, other then by reg now National Commanders, etc.

Given the lack of the preferred grade, roles are filled by those available.

Strongly concur with Eclipse here (see, Bob, it can happen)!!  ::)

We "hire" people based on talent, time, and mindset far more than grade. I'm now participating in that staff screening process again and let me assure you we're NOT discussing grade or rank at all! A servant/leader attitude, a mindset to follow the regs, and the ability to work well with others trumps what is on the shoulder marks by a wide margin (for any sensible Wing staff).

To the original comment, though, we've got a double edged sword here. NHQ is trying to address the problems of "old-boy-'ism" and of promoting advanced PD training for individuals seeking advanced grade by raising the bar on expectations for professional development. However, most of the really valuable, very active and energetic volunteer staff already are (by their nature) committed to producing results in other areas of their lives (hey, how about that turn of a phrase) and can't now commit to a broad level of further training to achieve Level III/IV/V, which becomes a barrier to advanced grade. Its a juggling act to try to hold the line high enough to improve long term corporate volunteer expertise without screening out effective, qualified but busy people.

Would I recommend someone who is a Company grade officer without a BS/BA degree to be a DCP (or some other staff function)? Yep, could be. I might even (hypothetically, in this instance) recommend/select someone who is a LT but is a professional educator over a Lt Col with otherwise limited experience working with adolescents, IF (and only if) that is the right individual for the situation. In that instance, promotion doesn't impose any glass ceiling on job selection.

Also, at the end of the day, the promotions, the bits of cloth and metal, the certificates, and the applause of your fellows are the tangible pay we receive as volunteers (that, and seeing victims of disasters preserved and seeing cadets mature into good citizens). If not through promotions, then we need to remember to find other ways to pay our troops, and pay them well.

V/r
Spam

Grade has several purposes:
- Keep with the tradition of the Air Force in using a rank structure
- Provide a retention mechanism to reward training, experience, and time in

We could fully function without actual grade if everything we did was just based on job titles. Most CAP units are not structured based on grade but using a title/function (Operations Officer, Communications Officer, Assistant Communications Officer, etc).

Insignia comes as a form of prestige and recognition. It's a reward for putting in the effort. Huge retention boost in a society of people who seek recognition. Frankly, "selfless service" is minimal in most people. There comes a point when someone goes, "I'm just not getting anything in return." So the promotion process is necessary to keep up the morale and giving members something to work toward. A goal is a great way to tell someone, "Look, you've put in all this work. You're almost there."

The military wants its service members to have a certain level of experience for their function and strongly differentiates the requirements between the commissioned and non-commissioned. In CAP, you may have a Wing Commander who has a GED, no college education, but 20 years as a senior member officer. Good luck finding that in the Army. But the military also provides financial compensation for your labor in addition to the other benefits, to include the awards programs.

CAP just doesn't have the resources, whether funding, facilities, equipment, or manpower, to provide the training and retention for every member. There's only so much that can be done.

I, too, don't like that there may be some form of training I'd like to attend but can't take a week off of work for. It is what it is. I'll survive without it. My financial expenditures come first. I've often said that I would love if CAP paid me the same I make at my job. I put just as much time into CAP as I do my day job, if not more sometimes. I'd choose what I do in CAP over my private career in a flash. But, that's the way this works.

I'm pretty on track, though, with my training requirements in CAP. Perhaps things have just aligned for me to progress at the appropriate rate. But I'm a forward planner---I need to look down the road, and say to myself, "Okay, you really can't miss the next training session or you might fall behind." Alright, I'm there, then. I'll organize that schedule with work. "Hey, boss. Can I take off a week in 6 months?" "Nope. Can't do." "Ugh. Okay, it is what it is." It's just a reminder that I'm not entitled to these things.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Senior Promotion Barriers
 


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