Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 20, 2017, 09:04:00 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Those "Pesky" Cadets, and their Parents: Yes, I plan on coming back
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All Print
Author Topic: Those "Pesky" Cadets, and their Parents: Yes, I plan on coming back  (Read 6234 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,823

« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 03:29:00 PM »

So what is more important, numbers or developing leaders?

Strawman - these are not mutually exclusive, and a good CC is responsible for both.

Absentee members are a detriment to the program across the board.  They break the metrics,
generate false numbers in things like "Reports to Congress", and give CC's a false sense of accomplishment
where none may exist.

CAP is not an "affinity club" or association like AARP or the AMA where the member's main value is a check to
allow for lobbying money.  It's supposed to be a service organization, either the member being served (cadets),
or serving (seniors).  Absentee members do neither.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:24:38 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 03:41:09 PM »

We can argue metrics all day long and things like developing leaders etc.  At the end of the day the reality is if a cadet is not showing up and is not communicating what is going on then they are dead weight and should be transferred to a charter that will accommodate that or 2b them.  Harsh yes, opinion yes.  But at the end of the day part of developing leaders is teaching consequences for actions and accountability. 

How many of you would continue to employ someone who just upped and disappeared with no communication for a year or more?  By sheltering and coddling folks who are not showing up for the sake of developing is a lame excuse.  If they are not contributing and are just there then cut the dead weight. 

We have too much of the snowflake, self entitled generation who have no clue how to be responsible or accountable. 
Logged
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 136

« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.
Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2017, 01:57:30 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.
Logged
foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 136

« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 02:05:38 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

That could be, but those are just details. Tell me how it contradicts the larger point being made.
Logged
chuckmilam
Recruit

Posts: 45
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 03:22:14 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

That could be, but those are just details. Tell me how it contradicts the larger point being made.
The larger point was that those of us who do the work often get to work for those who didn't--and in fact have no idea how to do the job.  Did I mention I'm in IT? 
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 847

« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 04:05:41 PM »

The world is filled with people who nod and smile, say "Inshallah!"

I just have to say that the moment I read this, I laughed out loud.

I don't think I'm your Group CC, but I know I'm in your Wing. If you want to be technical, with the new regulations last year, that Memo is null and void. We currently don't have a supplement regarding that, only about awards and aircraft maintenance. What I suggest is to flat out call the cadet's parents and say if he doesn't start showing up, he'll get the 2b. That way, it doesn't come as a surprise. I'd also advise your Group CC just to be safe.

You are not, Sir. And I was not aware that this memo was nullified; neither are my counterparts in my unit. So, we'll definitely look into this. As far as we've discussed, informally, with personnel at Wing, the protocol is all over the place. One person says A, another says B. Not just on this subject, but in general. I do, definitely, intend to discuss this with the Group CC in the near future. Priority-wise, it's definitely not urgent. But thank you for the info.

I know a lot of people are for 2b for cadets who are inactive but what does that really serve?  You now have a young person who will never come back.  I know some will talk about safety currency percentages but I'm more concerned about helping to make cadets better young adults than worrying about a number.  I understand that a cadet can reapply but how many do you think actually go through the trouble of reinstatement?  I think NHQ is dropping the ball here.  Even if the member isn't active, they are giving money to CAP.  If you kick them out then you have less money coming in.  Why would we want to reduce our limited revenue?

I think this hits an important point that I constantly try to bring up with people. "Okay, I understand that we can just leave them on the roster, but their inactivity brings down our numbers." Yeah, and who cares? But like someone else mentioned, the metrics still look poorer than what they actually are. What is the percentage of those who participate in Safety Education? Well, this could be 50% on a roster, or 80% in actuality. I don't know if that looks poorly on the unit or not. I've never been someone who favored the numbers game or "paper members."

Terminating someone's membership, however, doesn't cause us to lose money if they don't renew. So I don't align with the logic there.

How many cadets retain membership after 1 year and are inactive?  Do inactive cadets reduce morale in a squadron?  Do active members in a squadron pay "extra" when there are inactive cadets remaining on the roles?  The answers vary from squadron to squadron, and it is the commander's responsibility to determine when, and if a non participating cadet should go.  As had been said, there are no easy answers.  The cadet program develops individuals from followers to leaders.  Participation is mandatory.  Letting someone go because they won't or can't participate is part of that development.  Learning about the consequences of one's actions are all part of life.  Let's not worry about the few dollars lost. I would rather worry about developing a more active cadet corps and future adult leaders of our nation.

Again, I'm not so sure it "costs more" to keep someone on. One thing I will say is that it can be difficult to judge participation in an event. If we decide to provide food, how much food do we need? 30 people or 15 people? Okay, so you have a sign-up roster. "Look, if you don't sign up, you don't eat." Yeah, because that works out if they still show up. "No, you don't get to eat." You know that doesn't go over well. But still, "We need 40 MREs." 30 people show up. Great. Something that will sit in the cabinet, take up space. "But it saves us money next time." Does it? What if we do the same thing next time?

Unless I completely missed the mark and this has something to do with the higher echelons and their funding.

On the side of morale, I do think it hurts morale. Losing someone from the roster hurts morale, too, though. Every time it happens, I think our Retention Officer goes into a coma like it was his fault. No, it wasn't. yes, we need to provide a fun program to retain members. No, we can't reach everyone and keep them; some will leave. It's inevitable.

I have had cadets stop showing up for one reason or another and then magically reappear after a year or more.  Some have went on to be very successful cadets and mentors to other.  If I would have simply 2b'd them then they wouldn't come back.

Wouldn't their membership be expired if they left anyway? Perhaps there's that brief period where they just never renewed in time and re-upped after a year and a week, but I haven't seen that from anyone who was absent for a year, only those late renewals who showed up regularly.


It seems like there's a majority lean toward "drop the dead weight" with a few still saying "don't act too quickly" without a defined timeline of when to actually act. Perhaps let them fall off the roster on their own?

So the regs say actively participate, use the 2B to terminate inactive members, yadda yadda. Apparently, my Wing supplement is void. Like I said initially, I'm really okay, myself, with just saying "Hey, this person hasn't been here in 3 months. We reached out to them. They didn't return calls. They didn't respond to emails. Don't give me that business about how busy you were. Bye."

My feeling is that if your kid was grounded, the kid should still tell someone. If mom or dad say "absolutely not," then mom or dad should inform someone. You don't show up to basketball practice, you're off the team. Why is this any different?

"That's not fair! What kind of leadership program kicks someone off the team?!"
"What kind of person calls their self a leader in training and doesn't show up?" That's a life lesson right there.

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,806

« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2017, 08:08:36 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.
Logged
Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 187
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 08:08:53 PM »

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.

The Wing Supplement on Inactive Members has not been rescinded.

We'll discuss my expectations of the units under my command when I visit on Thursday.
Logged
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2017, 08:17:27 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.

Hence your an E3 even in BMT...
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,806

« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2017, 11:46:38 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.

Hence your an E3 even in BMT...

At least in the way that counts most, on payday!!!
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 847

« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 11:18:45 AM »

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.

The Wing Supplement on Inactive Members has not been rescinded.

We'll discuss my expectations of the units under my command when I visit on Thursday.

Appreciate it, Sir. Thank you.

It's interesting what some of the other Groups do---where I see some units with very large rosters and 50% of those members inactive for upwards of 9 months.

Do some units just find it too much work to track down inactive members and process them for removal/transfer, or do they just figure it's not worth the time? I mean that as a serious question, not a dig. I think Administration, Personnel, and Retention are three roles that a lot of people don't realize the amount of work that really goes into those positions, especially as a unit grows.

This ties in a lot with another thread someone initiated about "how things are" today versus the last couple of decades. The level of communication via technology has greatly increased through email, message boards, texting, as well as automated systems like eServices. But they don't always make the job easier because, at the end of the day, you're always dealing with people, not just automated machines.

Logged
CadetCrayonEater
Newbie

Posts: 4
Unit: PCR-NV-054

« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2017, 03:16:32 PM »

Yeah I know the problem and I would just kick 'em out if it isnt a big deal. Parents will gruff but rules are rules Cadet Snowflake doesnt get special treatment.

"A failure to plan on your part doesnt constitute a emergency on mine"
Logged
C/SrA Mudd
Suppy Officer
Cadet Advisory Council
Reno Composite Squadron
Nevada Wing
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 729

« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2017, 03:27:23 PM »

I know a lot of people are for 2b for cadets who are inactive but what does that really serve?  You now have a young person who will never come back.  I know some will talk about safety currency percentages but I'm more concerned about helping to make cadets better young adults than worrying about a number.  I understand that a cadet can reapply but how many do you think actually go through the trouble of reinstatement?  I think NHQ is dropping the ball here.  Even if the member isn't active, they are giving money to CAP.  If you kick them out then you have less money coming in.  Why would we want to reduce our limited revenue?

If you see them as revenue streams you don't 2b them.  IF you think they should be living up to their oaths you do
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693

« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2017, 03:39:16 PM »

I know a lot of people are for 2b for cadets who are inactive but what does that really serve?  You now have a young person who will never come back.  I know some will talk about safety currency percentages but I'm more concerned about helping to make cadets better young adults than worrying about a number.  I understand that a cadet can reapply but how many do you think actually go through the trouble of reinstatement?  I think NHQ is dropping the ball here.  Even if the member isn't active, they are giving money to CAP.  If you kick them out then you have less money coming in.  Why would we want to reduce our limited revenue?

If you see them as revenue streams you don't 2b them.  IF you think they should be living up to their oaths you do

I definitely don't see them as revenue streams.  I see cadets as young people who often get distracted by the world around them.  If we simply kick them out for not attending x number of meetings then how can we be a good influence and mentor to them?  I have had cadets who slipped out of the program for whatever reason and then came back in a few months and became great leaders.  If I would have 2b'd them I'm not sure if any would have gone through the process to reapply.   A Senior Member may be a different story.

If someone could explain to me how 2b'ing a cadet simply for not attending x number of meeting benefits CAP or the cadet, I would love to listen.  I understand safety currency, core values, and the cadet oath but we are talking about teenagers and they can be easily distracted.  Show we really punish them for that?  I would agree with not letting them renew a membership, but what is the point in terminating the membership? 

Wouldn't the better approach be to deny membership renewal for cadet and move Senior Members to patron status?
Logged
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 729

« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2017, 03:40:51 PM »

I know a lot of people are for 2b for cadets who are inactive but what does that really serve?  You now have a young person who will never come back.  I know some will talk about safety currency percentages but I'm more concerned about helping to make cadets better young adults than worrying about a number.  I understand that a cadet can reapply but how many do you think actually go through the trouble of reinstatement?  I think NHQ is dropping the ball here.  Even if the member isn't active, they are giving money to CAP.  If you kick them out then you have less money coming in.  Why would we want to reduce our limited revenue?

If you see them as revenue streams you don't 2b them.  IF you think they should be living up to their oaths you do

I definitely don't see them as revenue streams.  I see cadets as young people who often get distracted by the world around them.  If we simply kick them out for not attending x number of meetings then how can we be a good influence and mentor to them?  I have had cadets who slipped out of the program for whatever reason and then came back in a few months and became great leaders.  If I would have 2b'd them I'm not sure if any would have gone through the process to reapply.   A Senior Member may be a different story.

If someone could explain to me how 2b'ing a cadet simply for not attending x number of meeting benefits CAP or the cadet, I would love to listen.  I understand safety currency, core values, and the cadet oath but we are talking about teenagers and they can be easily distracted.  Show we really punish them for that?  I would agree with not letting them renew a membership, but what is the point in terminating the membership? 

Wouldn't the better approach be to deny membership renewal for cadet and move Senior Members to patron status?

If they're not willing to be there we won't be able to mentor them anyway.  If the CC did their job they know what's expected.  Part of mentoring is teaching people about consequences
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693

« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »

If they're not willing to be there we won't be able to mentor them anyway.  If the CC did their job they know what's expected.  Part of mentoring is teaching people about consequences

This has nothing to do with if the CC does their job or not.  Yes mentoring teaches consequences but we are talking about teenagers.  What happens with the cadet decides he wants to come back after a month or so only to find out he has to pay dues and request to be reinstated?  Most would probably just walk away and then how do you mentor them when all you have done is turn them against CAP.  From a customer service perspective this is not a good idea either as this one person will most likely bad mouth the organization every chance they get and that just hurts recruiting.

So I will ask again, what is the benefit to CAP and to the cadet for membership termination for missing meeting?  They definitely should not be allowed to renew, but what is the gain from terminating membership?
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,823

« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2017, 04:07:56 PM »

Wouldn't the better approach be to deny membership renewal for cadet and move Senior Members to patron status?

This is not currently an option.

Your only recourse with non-participating / no contact cadets is termination.

There's a difference between missing a meeting and being a "no call / no show" for weeks or months.
A good CC would follow up and try to contact them to see why they aren't showing up, but
if they won't answer the phone or return emails, or the mails bounce, etc., at some point, you submit
the form and move on.  They made their choice, no sense in agonizing over it.

When I took over my current squadron, I had a banker's box full of members who been inherited from another
failed unit, and hadn't shown up to a meeting ever, some in more then a year. 

Those members skew the readiness, QCUA, SOM, and other metrics, to no advantage to the unit.  why
would CAP want to keep them?

If CAP wants the revenue, then take the records and create a cadet patron category, otherwise, "click".
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693

« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2017, 05:19:08 PM »

Wouldn't the better approach be to deny membership renewal for cadet and move Senior Members to patron status?

This is not currently an option.

Your only recourse with non-participating / no contact cadets is termination.


I am aware that it is currently not an option.  My questions is, wouldn't it be a better approach?  This is something that NHQ could easily implement in the same way that active duty commanders have to approve their members to allow for reenlistment.  I'm not concerned about revenue, I'm concerned about keeping teens in the program and not giving them a reason to bad mouth CAP if they decide to stop attending.  Kicking them out is just giving them a reason to spread bad seeds about CAP.  What is the advantage of that?  I know that it happens anyway but why are we creating another avenue for people to complain? 

What is the advantage? 

They made their choice, no sense in agonizing over it.

Yes they did make a choice.  Why are we basically making that choice permanent and creating potential bad blood?  Again, what is the advantage?  We should not create artificial barriers for teens who step away from CAP for a period of time.
Logged
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,599

« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2017, 05:24:50 PM »

Wouldn't the better approach be to deny membership renewal for cadet and move Senior Members to patron status?

This is not currently an option.

Your only recourse with non-participating / no contact cadets is termination.


I am aware that it is currently not an option.  My questions is, wouldn't it be a better approach?  This is something that NHQ could easily implement in the same way that active duty commanders have to approve their members to allow for reenlistment.  I'm not concerned about revenue, I'm concerned about keeping teens in the program and not giving them a reason to bad mouth CAP if they decide to stop attending.  Kicking them out is just giving them a reason to spread bad seeds about CAP.  What is the advantage of that?  I know that it happens anyway but why are we creating another avenue for people to complain? 

What is the advantage? 

They made their choice, no sense in agonizing over it.

Yes they did make a choice.  Why are we basically making that choice permanent and creating potential bad blood?  Again, what is the advantage?  We should not create artificial barriers for teens who step away from CAP for a period of time.

It (non-renewal) gives bad or malicious commanders the ability to make people they don't like go away.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 05:27:57 PM by Spaceman3750 » Logged
"Anyone can hold the helm when the seas are calm ... leadership is about weathering the storm."

The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Those "Pesky" Cadets, and their Parents: Yes, I plan on coming back
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.409 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me