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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Those "Pesky" Cadets, and their Parents: Yes, I plan on coming back
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,253

« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 03:29:00 PM »

So what is more important, numbers or developing leaders?

Strawman - these are not mutually exclusive, and a good CC is responsible for both.

Absentee members are a detriment to the program across the board.  They break the metrics,
generate false numbers in things like "Reports to Congress", and give CC's a false sense of accomplishment
where none may exist.

CAP is not an "affinity club" or association like AARP or the AMA where the member's main value is a check to
allow for lobbying money.  It's supposed to be a service organization, either the member being served (cadets),
or serving (seniors).  Absentee members do neither.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:24:38 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,251
Unit: Classified

« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 03:41:09 PM »

We can argue metrics all day long and things like developing leaders etc.  At the end of the day the reality is if a cadet is not showing up and is not communicating what is going on then they are dead weight and should be transferred to a charter that will accommodate that or 2b them.  Harsh yes, opinion yes.  But at the end of the day part of developing leaders is teaching consequences for actions and accountability. 

How many of you would continue to employ someone who just upped and disappeared with no communication for a year or more?  By sheltering and coddling folks who are not showing up for the sake of developing is a lame excuse.  If they are not contributing and are just there then cut the dead weight. 

We have too much of the snowflake, self entitled generation who have no clue how to be responsible or accountable. 
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 136

« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,251
Unit: Classified

« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2017, 01:57:30 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.
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foo
Forum Regular

Posts: 136

« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 02:05:38 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

That could be, but those are just details. Tell me how it contradicts the larger point being made.
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chuckmilam
Recruit

Posts: 22
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2017, 03:22:14 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

That could be, but those are just details. Tell me how it contradicts the larger point being made.
The larger point was that those of us who do the work often get to work for those who didn't--and in fact have no idea how to do the job.  Did I mention I'm in IT? 
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 828

« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2017, 04:05:41 PM »

The world is filled with people who nod and smile, say "Inshallah!"

I just have to say that the moment I read this, I laughed out loud.

I don't think I'm your Group CC, but I know I'm in your Wing. If you want to be technical, with the new regulations last year, that Memo is null and void. We currently don't have a supplement regarding that, only about awards and aircraft maintenance. What I suggest is to flat out call the cadet's parents and say if he doesn't start showing up, he'll get the 2b. That way, it doesn't come as a surprise. I'd also advise your Group CC just to be safe.

You are not, Sir. And I was not aware that this memo was nullified; neither are my counterparts in my unit. So, we'll definitely look into this. As far as we've discussed, informally, with personnel at Wing, the protocol is all over the place. One person says A, another says B. Not just on this subject, but in general. I do, definitely, intend to discuss this with the Group CC in the near future. Priority-wise, it's definitely not urgent. But thank you for the info.

I know a lot of people are for 2b for cadets who are inactive but what does that really serve?  You now have a young person who will never come back.  I know some will talk about safety currency percentages but I'm more concerned about helping to make cadets better young adults than worrying about a number.  I understand that a cadet can reapply but how many do you think actually go through the trouble of reinstatement?  I think NHQ is dropping the ball here.  Even if the member isn't active, they are giving money to CAP.  If you kick them out then you have less money coming in.  Why would we want to reduce our limited revenue?

I think this hits an important point that I constantly try to bring up with people. "Okay, I understand that we can just leave them on the roster, but their inactivity brings down our numbers." Yeah, and who cares? But like someone else mentioned, the metrics still look poorer than what they actually are. What is the percentage of those who participate in Safety Education? Well, this could be 50% on a roster, or 80% in actuality. I don't know if that looks poorly on the unit or not. I've never been someone who favored the numbers game or "paper members."

Terminating someone's membership, however, doesn't cause us to lose money if they don't renew. So I don't align with the logic there.

How many cadets retain membership after 1 year and are inactive?  Do inactive cadets reduce morale in a squadron?  Do active members in a squadron pay "extra" when there are inactive cadets remaining on the roles?  The answers vary from squadron to squadron, and it is the commander's responsibility to determine when, and if a non participating cadet should go.  As had been said, there are no easy answers.  The cadet program develops individuals from followers to leaders.  Participation is mandatory.  Letting someone go because they won't or can't participate is part of that development.  Learning about the consequences of one's actions are all part of life.  Let's not worry about the few dollars lost. I would rather worry about developing a more active cadet corps and future adult leaders of our nation.

Again, I'm not so sure it "costs more" to keep someone on. One thing I will say is that it can be difficult to judge participation in an event. If we decide to provide food, how much food do we need? 30 people or 15 people? Okay, so you have a sign-up roster. "Look, if you don't sign up, you don't eat." Yeah, because that works out if they still show up. "No, you don't get to eat." You know that doesn't go over well. But still, "We need 40 MREs." 30 people show up. Great. Something that will sit in the cabinet, take up space. "But it saves us money next time." Does it? What if we do the same thing next time?

Unless I completely missed the mark and this has something to do with the higher echelons and their funding.

On the side of morale, I do think it hurts morale. Losing someone from the roster hurts morale, too, though. Every time it happens, I think our Retention Officer goes into a coma like it was his fault. No, it wasn't. yes, we need to provide a fun program to retain members. No, we can't reach everyone and keep them; some will leave. It's inevitable.

I have had cadets stop showing up for one reason or another and then magically reappear after a year or more.  Some have went on to be very successful cadets and mentors to other.  If I would have simply 2b'd them then they wouldn't come back.

Wouldn't their membership be expired if they left anyway? Perhaps there's that brief period where they just never renewed in time and re-upped after a year and a week, but I haven't seen that from anyone who was absent for a year, only those late renewals who showed up regularly.


It seems like there's a majority lean toward "drop the dead weight" with a few still saying "don't act too quickly" without a defined timeline of when to actually act. Perhaps let them fall off the roster on their own?

So the regs say actively participate, use the 2B to terminate inactive members, yadda yadda. Apparently, my Wing supplement is void. Like I said initially, I'm really okay, myself, with just saying "Hey, this person hasn't been here in 3 months. We reached out to them. They didn't return calls. They didn't respond to emails. Don't give me that business about how busy you were. Bye."

My feeling is that if your kid was grounded, the kid should still tell someone. If mom or dad say "absolutely not," then mom or dad should inform someone. You don't show up to basketball practice, you're off the team. Why is this any different?

"That's not fair! What kind of leadership program kicks someone off the team?!"
"What kind of person calls their self a leader in training and doesn't show up?" That's a life lesson right there.

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,605

« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2017, 08:08:36 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.
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Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 168
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 08:08:53 PM »

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.

The Wing Supplement on Inactive Members has not been rescinded.

We'll discuss my expectations of the units under my command when I visit on Thursday.
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Great Lakes Region Cyber Programs Officer
Ohio Wing Group 3 Commander
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,251
Unit: Classified

« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2017, 08:17:27 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.

Hence your an E3 even in BMT...
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,605

« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2017, 11:46:38 PM »

You want to really break a kid?  Punch his ticket through a diamond and then put him into a position of authority over other cadets who actually did the work.

On the other hand, this is a great life lesson about the harsh realities of adult life.

The USAF doesn't fund us to pencil whip cadets through to Mitchell. Attaining that milestone is supposed to mean something, which is why enlisted get an extra stripe when they graduate from BMT in the Army and Air Force.

Last I knew having your Mitchell granted E3 upon enlistment into the AF not at the end of BMT.

You get paid as an E3, but you don't wear it until Graduation.

Hence your an E3 even in BMT...

At least in the way that counts most, on payday!!!
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 828

« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 11:18:45 AM »

But still, there's a process for it. I'll just bring this discussion back to my own chain of command and see where it goes. Just wanted to have some more education on the subject before I started making my recommendations.

The Wing Supplement on Inactive Members has not been rescinded.

We'll discuss my expectations of the units under my command when I visit on Thursday.

Appreciate it, Sir. Thank you.

It's interesting what some of the other Groups do---where I see some units with very large rosters and 50% of those members inactive for upwards of 9 months.

Do some units just find it too much work to track down inactive members and process them for removal/transfer, or do they just figure it's not worth the time? I mean that as a serious question, not a dig. I think Administration, Personnel, and Retention are three roles that a lot of people don't realize the amount of work that really goes into those positions, especially as a unit grows.

This ties in a lot with another thread someone initiated about "how things are" today versus the last couple of decades. The level of communication via technology has greatly increased through email, message boards, texting, as well as automated systems like eServices. But they don't always make the job easier because, at the end of the day, you're always dealing with people, not just automated machines.

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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Those "Pesky" Cadets, and their Parents: Yes, I plan on coming back
 


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