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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Do Decorations Show in eServices for Cadets?
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Author Topic: Do Decorations Show in eServices for Cadets?  (Read 2201 times)
Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »

The encampment CC is responsible for certifying that a respective member has completed the requirements of the
activity and receives credit in eServices - some encampments generate a PA, and many provide a physical ribbon,
however few generate Form 2As for starters because the encampment CC is outside the approval chain for most
members (other then the cases where he's in it by coincidence), not to mention most encampments
have members from multiple wings and regions.

Delegation of the approval for the ribbon is all over the map - some Wings hold that authority at their level with no delegation,
others delegate it to the Unit CCs.

Per regulation, the individual member is responsible for submitting the 2A.
CAPR 39-3, Page 11
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual
member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a
, Request
for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have
been completed. The CAP Form 2a is then forwarded by the unit commander to the appropriate
approving authority. (If the unit commander has been delegated approving authority by the wing
commander as outlined in paragraph 18b, the unit commander simply approves the form and returns
it to the recipient for placement in the memberís personnel file.) Upon approval, activity and service
ribbons are purchased by the awarding unit or by the individual recipient, as appropriate."


e. Encampment Ribbon. Awarded to cadets for satisfactory completion of an encampment
and to senior members for service as a member of an encampment staff. Award of the ribbon is
retroactive and clasps may be attached for repetitive awards."


This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."

The above would be a wise decision by an agile program manager, maybe there will be time for that
once the critical task of re-numbering documents is completed sometime in 2020.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 07:56:16 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
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Posts: 5,806

« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PM »

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.
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Jester
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Posts: 191

« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 08:21:21 PM »

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.

The main thing I've learned in my first year of CAP is that everything is 90% or more dependent on the local level. There's no bopping down the street to the experts to fix it.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 847

« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2017, 11:21:35 AM »


Per regulation, the individual member is responsible for submitting the 2A.
CAPR 39-3, Page 11
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

Yeah, good luck with that.

Perhaps if the Encampment staff pre-filled out a 2A and had the cadets take them home to their unit Commander...

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.

The main thing I've learned in my first year of CAP is that everything is 90% or more dependent on the local level. There's no bopping down the street to the experts to fix it.

I'll take that to the next level. Just as with the military, you better be on top of your own stuff and be self-reliant.

What frustrates me is the level of work this causes for the unit, particularly those of us in Cadet Programs, where the people affected by it are the ones who lose morale over it. 14-year-olds don't understand "why can't they just..." I'm 13 years older. I can't figure it out either.
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Alaric
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Posts: 728

« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2017, 12:12:29 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then
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kwe1009
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Posts: 693

« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2017, 12:26:21 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.
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Alaric
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Posts: 728

« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2017, 12:36:32 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me for instance Member A of Samsung Wing is asked to help support a large AE activity in LG Wing, she is given permission by the Commander of Samsung.  The Wing commander of LG Wing notes what a great job she is doing and wants to present her a Commander's Commendation, why would the commander of Samsung even get involved?
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,823

« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2017, 12:51:26 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

Cite please.

This may be tradition, but I have never seen this codified anywhere in the regulations and know of a number of situations
that conflict with the above, not to mention the above would also insinuate that a Group CC would only be able to present an
Achievement Award to members of his own Group and I know that's not the case, certainly not for decs awarded outside eservices.

I also wouldn't argue that the above isn't the current logic of eServices approval chain for 120s, but we all know how well eServices
accommodates "stuff tat would never happen".  /eyeroll emoji/

The only restriction I'm aware of is that only CC's can recommend other CC's for decs.


Well, there you go:
CAPR 39-3 Page 5:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"c. Region commanders are authorized to award the Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious
Service Award, the Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award and the
Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. These awards may be approved by region commanders for
all members of units within their regions.
Announcements of such awards will be made in personnel
actions published by regional headquarters.

d. Wing commanders are authorized to award the Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP
Achievement Award and the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. These awards may be
approved by wing commanders for all members of units within their wings.
Announcement of such
awards will be made in personnel actions published by wing headquarters.

e. Group commanders are authorized to award the CAP Achievement Award. These awards
may be approved by group commanders for all members of units within their group.
If a wing does
not have a group structure, the wing commander may designate who has the authority to approve this
award."


And while the above doesn't contain the word "only", based on the way and nature of CAP regs, "that which is not authorized,
is prohibited" (please, run to your keyboard and argue that point again, it's raining by me).  with that said,
I can say with certainty that awards and decs have been handed out for years in violation of the above.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 12:57:21 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 847

« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2017, 01:46:20 PM »

This goes back to the should versus is, I suppose.

Again, inconsistent.

If the regulations say only those awards may be initiated and approved at that echelon, then that's that. In OHWG, the Wing Commander has delegated authority to Group and Squadron Commanders to approve service ribbons at their level.

So back to the matter of Encampment in particular, I guess the Encampment Commander would not have the authority to issue those ribbons. So the questions persists: Why did cadets walk away from Encampment two years ago with Encampment ribbons but not in the past two years? Did the Encampment Commanders then overstep and present awards they were not authorized to present?

Inconsistency.

I've had this issue with Red Service Ribbons. Who has one? Who doesn't? This is, by far, the most "forgotten" award I've seen. Some people had it without their personnel file (hard copy) reflecting it. Some people didn't have one at all. People from other squadrons who transferred in didn't have them.

We appointed a dedicated Personnel Officer a few months ago, and he's working to try and get the files organized to figure out what's what, but it's not an easy task to go through the regulations and each person's electronic and paper files to figure out who has what and what is missing. Not to mention asking people in general: "What ribbons do you have?" I'm at the point where I say just bring in your ribbon rack, and we're going to run through a checklist to tick off what you have and what you should have. Then, we'll start working on the paperwork (expect a flood of emails, Group CC :P ). It's so hard to catch up, though. The mess just continues to roll over.

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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,823

« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2017, 01:55:42 PM »

So back to the matter of Encampment in particular, I guess the Encampment Commander would not have the authority to issue those ribbons. So the questions persists: Why did cadets walk away from Encampment two years ago with Encampment ribbons but not in the past two years? Did the Encampment Commanders then overstep and present awards they were not authorized to present?

Inconsistency.

Inconsistency in the execution of the Encampment Program from Wing to Wing?   

Blasphemy!  Blunderbuss' from hot air balloons at dawn!



In all seriousness, the certification comes from the CAP-USAF (until about 2013) and now the Encampment CC,
the issuance of the ribbon itself is a technicality of poorly written regulations which don't jive with the actual
program.  Some encampments included the actual ribbon with a certificate as a value-add, some didn't.
It's $100 some encampments didn't/don't have to spend.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 02:13:08 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 847

« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2017, 02:35:56 PM »

Blasphemy!  Blunderbuss' from hot air balloons at dawn!



Keeping this just because it makes me chuckle...

Quote
In all seriousness, the certification comes from the CAP-USAF (until about 2013) and now the Encampment CC,
the issuance of the ribbon itself is a technicality of poorly written regulations which don't jive with the actual
program.  Some encampments included the actual ribbon with a certificate as a value-add, some didn't.
It's $100 some encampments didn't/don't have to spend.

I guess it goes back to the question:
Why is all of this not available in eServices, even if it's the home unit putting the info into the system?

Funding is one thing. Wing-to-wing is another. But within the same Wing, inconsistency astounds.

This is not intended to cut-down the Ohio Wing, but it seems like some Wings seem to operate fairly well whereas other Wings are just sporadic at virtually everything. Now, some people see the good in another unit and go "I wish I was there." I'm much more the type to say "I want us to be that good; even better."

I don't expect every single activity/program to be the same. Encampments will definitely vary. The intended output should be the same. Basic Training at Fort Jackson will differ from Fort Sill. Boot Camp at Parris Island will differ from San Diego. What they walk away with in knowledge and skill should be the same. The experience may, however, differ.

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 05:34:57 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

I am assigned to CAWG. Back in 2008, with CAWG permission, I staffed a MIWG encampment. My name went on the F20. It shows up in eServices. I wear the ribbon.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693

« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 09:28:24 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

I am assigned to CAWG. Back in 2008, with CAWG permission, I staffed a MIWG encampment. My name went on the F20. It shows up in eServices. I wear the ribbon.

That is actually different.  I am talking about awards.  The encampment ribbon is a decoration just like the NCSA ribbon.  Both of these are documented on a CAPF2A.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2017, 11:45:10 PM »

You have it backwards.

CAPR 39-3 lays it out like this:

The Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award,Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious Service Award, Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award, Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving, National Commanderís Unit Citation Award, and Unit Citation Award are decorations, which are awarded for exceptional performance.

Awards are lower in the pecking order, and are those things listed in sections C, D, and E of the reg - CP achievements and milestones, PD awards, and AE awards.

At the bottom are Activity and Service ribbons, which include, among others, the NCSA and Encampment ribbon.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 693

« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2017, 11:02:09 AM »

You have it backwards.

CAPR 39-3 lays it out like this:

The Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award,Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious Service Award, Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award, Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving, National Commanderís Unit Citation Award, and Unit Citation Award are decorations, which are awarded for exceptional performance.

Awards are lower in the pecking order, and are those things listed in sections C, D, and E of the reg - CP achievements and milestones, PD awards, and AE awards.

At the bottom are Activity and Service ribbons, which include, among others, the NCSA and Encampment ribbon.

Thanks.  I always get the terms awards and decorations backwards.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Do Decorations Show in eServices for Cadets?
 


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