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Author Topic: Do Decorations Show in eServices for Cadets?  (Read 1935 times)
GaryVC
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« on: March 23, 2017, 01:20:24 PM »

I can see the decorations in eServices for our senior members that have them. However, several cadets should have the CAP Achievement Award and I don't see them in the member search report in eServices. Should they be there?
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xray328
Seasoned Member

Posts: 474
Unit: IL-189

« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2017, 01:21:59 PM »

My daughter's does


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Jester
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Posts: 113

« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2017, 01:24:55 PM »

It should. I just had a cadet get a Commander's Commendation and it's in there.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 01:52:11 PM »

It depends on two factors -

1 - When it was awarded, because if it pre-dates the relatively new (2 years ish) 120 system would have to be entered
manually as an "historic" award to show in eServcies.

2 - That it was submitted and approved via the 120 system, as opposed to a paper 120.  I would be willing to bet a fair number of CC's
aren't even aware the 120 system exists, and I would further bet there are still wings who for some reason insist on paper.

So it's entirely possible that members have relatively recent, or even very recent decs that were properly approved and don't show in eServices,
in which case the member or Personnel Officer should submit them as "historic" with an uploaded 120 or certificate to be approved up the chain
and recorded in eServices.
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AlphaSigOU
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Posts: 2,117
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The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 01:55:19 PM »

Currently awarded decorations are entered by the senior/cadet registrar at NHQ at Maxwell AFB. Older decorations must have copies of the certificate or the personnel action submitted to NHQ. The commander/admin/personnel officer at wing level or higher usually has access to the module for decorations for review and approval. Once approved, the decoration will appear in the member's personnel file on eServices.
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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
One of three of CAP's active senior members on Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands!
(Don't ask me about forming an overseas squadron here... ain't gonna happen!)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040
TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2017, 04:16:46 PM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.
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jeders
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Posts: 1,945

« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 04:21:35 PM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 04:23:38 PM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.

As you were.

I stand corrected. You are absolutely right. I just jumbled it all together and was mistaken. Thank you.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 04:41:31 PM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.

Encampment?  I suppose if the Unit is so inclined, but it's not necessary as the encampment itself is tracked - people do love their paperwork, though.

If a member, especially a cadet, is not listed for an encampment they attended, it's an easy fix - I had about 4 missing that I was the CC of and that I >know<
had my CAPID on the (now obsolete) F20.  A "records correction" memo with substantiation gets that fixed.  Typos on the F20 happen as well.

It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should
be in there.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 04:52:23 PM »

It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should
be in there.

No disagreement whatsoever. I figured "automation" meant just that. It gets entered in one place so that it's universal information.

Regarding Encampment, I just meant as a general "award/ribbon," you would expect some master list. I figure the code would pull the number of Encampments and verify that the cadet has "Encampment Ribbon, 2 subsequent awards," or similar on their record.

Often times, members, whether cadets or seniors, transfer units and they have no paper records, or their former unit kept very poor paper records. Many people, as I stated in another topic, don't have as much experience and may not even realize what ends up in eServices may not match what should end up in eServices. Just a wee bit sloppy.
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cnitas
Seasoned Member

Posts: 406

« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 04:58:13 PM »


It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should
be in there.

 :clap:
 THIS x 1000.
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Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,945

« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 09:35:31 AM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.

Encampment?  I suppose if the Unit is so inclined, but it's not necessary as the encampment itself is tracked - people do love their paperwork, though.

I was highlighting that mostly to say that it is an activity/service award, not a decoration. Technically, there should be a 2A in the member's file for the encampment award, but I agree that it's mostly academic for that award.

Quote
It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should be in there.

I couldn't agree more. There should be a 2A form in eServices; just copy the base code from the 120 app and then change the actual award name, done.
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,723

« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 10:03:35 AM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.

Encampment?  I suppose if the Unit is so inclined, but it's not necessary as the encampment itself is tracked - people do love their paperwork, though.

I was highlighting that mostly to say that it is an activity/service award, not a decoration. Technically, there should be a 2A in the member's file for the encampment award, but I agree that it's mostly academic for that award.

Quote
It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should be in there.

I couldn't agree more. There should be a 2A form in eServices; just copy the base code from the 120 app and then change the actual award name, done.

I agree. Put all of the actions online. Paper is so 1994....
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Strup
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Capt_Redfox30
Forum Regular

Posts: 116
Unit: GLR-IL-003

Illinois Wing
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 05:46:55 PM »

I find that not all of the awards and decorations show up. Not every Encampment Ribbon is listed, nor Community Service Ribbon, nor Red Service Ribbon, despite the forms being sent out and acknowledged that they were received. So either someone isn't entering them, or eServices (behind-the-scenes) doesn't accommodate them to be entered.

You really need to keep track of awards at the unit level. I equate it to a DD214. Good luck on everything being correct.

Those are service ribbons and NOT decorations. They are not tracked by eServices and must be tracked in the members personnel file.

Encampment?  I suppose if the Unit is so inclined, but it's not necessary as the encampment itself is tracked - people do love their paperwork, though.

I was highlighting that mostly to say that it is an activity/service award, not a decoration. Technically, there should be a 2A in the member's file for the encampment award, but I agree that it's mostly academic for that award.

Quote
It's inexplicable as to why some jelly beans are in there and some aren't, to the detriment of the membership, the prolonged life of the Form 45
(which should already be long dead and buried), and the "not making things easier" realm of administering a unit.

If it can be awarded and worn, it should be in there.

I couldn't agree more. There should be a 2A form in eServices; just copy the base code from the 120 app and then change the actual award name, done.

I agree. Put all of the actions online. Paper is so 1994....

Agreed, as a former Wing Director of Professional Development, it was lobbied for years for them to add an attachment feature so you could add documents in the PD Award Entry system so you can track something like I don't know conference attendance. Yes there is a box to enter dates, but if you could upload a document to prove that you attended that would be so much easier than having to go through Wing files, or send an email with proof attached that you were there. 
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Kirk Thirtyacre, Lt Col, CAP
(Acting) Group Commander
Group 3 HQ
Mordecai
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Posts: 923
Unit: SI

« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2017, 03:39:21 AM »

Currently awarded decorations are entered by the senior/cadet registrar at NHQ at Maxwell AFB. Older decorations must have copies of the certificate or the personnel action submitted to NHQ. The commander/admin/personnel officer at wing level or higher usually has access to the module for decorations for review and approval. Once approved, the decoration will appear in the member's personnel file on eServices.

I have a stack of older decorations for myself and another SM in my squadron I need to submit. Do you have a quick outline of the process by any chance?
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kwe1009
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Posts: 589

« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 12:39:39 PM »

Currently awarded decorations are entered by the senior/cadet registrar at NHQ at Maxwell AFB. Older decorations must have copies of the certificate or the personnel action submitted to NHQ. The commander/admin/personnel officer at wing level or higher usually has access to the module for decorations for review and approval. Once approved, the decoration will appear in the member's personnel file on eServices.

I have a stack of older decorations for myself and another SM in my squadron I need to submit. Do you have a quick outline of the process by any chance?

Submitting historical or a new award is very easy:
1. Click on Award Recommendation

2. Fill out the form (for historical awards be sure to add the approval date and check the "Historical Award" box in section 4)

3. You don't need to fill out section 3 or 5

4. If you have the award justification copy and paste it in section 6

5. Upload supporting documents in section 7 (citation, PA, signed CAPF120, etc)

6. Press "Submit"
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2017, 03:37:19 PM »

Not to derail this question further, but to refer back to a previous comment someone made regarding Encampment ribbons:

If the Encampment staff logs that the cadet went to Encampment on eServices, who documents the Encampment ribbon?

I have several cadets who have informed me that they do not have Encampment ribbons, and supposedly Encampment did not distribute them last year; they did, however. present them the year prior. Is it typical for the home unit to order the ribbons and distribute them, as well as document the ribbon on a 2A?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,731
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2017, 04:00:28 PM »

Hmmm... Two dilemmas here.

The first is documentation. If it's in eServices, why does there need to be a 2a for the ribbon? I already have possible answers, but I'm putting it out here for other opinions.

The second is buying the ribbon. If they aren't given out at the event (I've not seen it done at the ones I went to), then it's appropriate for the unit to get them. The unit knows far enough in advance who's going that they can order the ribbons/clasps and have them available at the next meeting after everyone returns from encampment.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2017, 04:13:38 PM »

Hmmm... Two dilemmas here.

The first is documentation. If it's in eServices, why does there need to be a 2a for the ribbon? I already have possible answers, but I'm putting it out here for other opinions.

The second is buying the ribbon. If they aren't given out at the event (I've not seen it done at the ones I went to), then it's appropriate for the unit to get them. The unit knows far enough in advance who's going that they can order the ribbons/clasps and have them available at the next meeting after everyone returns from encampment.


In our case, I think it mostly came from being one of those "traditionally, they provide the ribbon, not us" situations. So why spend the money for ribbons that the organization hosting the event gives out? Well, apparently this is why---because they didn't give them out.

I'd say regarding the 2A, the ribbon itself is not actually being documented it seems, just the time at that event. It's kind of like "Oh, you served in Afghanistan, but there's no Afghanistan Campaign Medal in your file." Just for comparison sake. It's all about the paper trail. But you figure the paperwork would be sent from the organization, not the home unit. I don't know; again, it's so inconsistent all over the place.

I can process an Achievement Award in eServices and it's documented. I can't do the same for the AFA award. It's a pain to not only award and process, but to track. And if I go over to the Personnel Officer and he doesn't have a clue, I just get aggravated.


Be. Consistent.
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Jester
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Posts: 113

« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2017, 04:32:56 PM »

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »

The encampment CC is responsible for certifying that a respective member has completed the requirements of the
activity and receives credit in eServices - some encampments generate a PA, and many provide a physical ribbon,
however few generate Form 2As for starters because the encampment CC is outside the approval chain for most
members (other then the cases where he's in it by coincidence), not to mention most encampments
have members from multiple wings and regions.

Delegation of the approval for the ribbon is all over the map - some Wings hold that authority at their level with no delegation,
others delegate it to the Unit CCs.

Per regulation, the individual member is responsible for submitting the 2A.
CAPR 39-3, Page 11
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"19. Administration Procedures for Award of Activity and Service Ribbons. The individual
member is responsible for preparing and submitting to the unit commander CAP Form 2a
, Request
for and Approval of Personnel Actions, when the requirements for an activity or service ribbon have
been completed. The CAP Form 2a is then forwarded by the unit commander to the appropriate
approving authority. (If the unit commander has been delegated approving authority by the wing
commander as outlined in paragraph 18b, the unit commander simply approves the form and returns
it to the recipient for placement in the memberís personnel file.) Upon approval, activity and service
ribbons are purchased by the awarding unit or by the individual recipient, as appropriate."


e. Encampment Ribbon. Awarded to cadets for satisfactory completion of an encampment
and to senior members for service as a member of an encampment staff. Award of the ribbon is
retroactive and clasps may be attached for repetitive awards."


This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."

The above would be a wise decision by an agile program manager, maybe there will be time for that
once the critical task of re-numbering documents is completed sometime in 2020.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 07:56:16 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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PHall
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2017, 07:59:39 PM »

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.
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Jester
Forum Regular

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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 08:21:21 PM »

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.

The main thing I've learned in my first year of CAP is that everything is 90% or more dependent on the local level. There's no bopping down the street to the experts to fix it.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 828

« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2017, 11:21:35 AM »


Per regulation, the individual member is responsible for submitting the 2A.
CAPR 39-3, Page 11
https://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

Yeah, good luck with that.

Perhaps if the Encampment staff pre-filled out a 2A and had the cadets take them home to their unit Commander...

Every authorized CAP ribbon should be tracked in eservices along with devices. In the AF, you can go into the virtual military personnel flight and all your awards and decade are listed there and it automatically assembles a ribbon rack on the screen. This can't be that difficult.

That's if their records are correct. Made a number of trips over to the Personnel Flight to have my records corrected. As long as you had a source document it was no problem.
But the system was very inconsistent in accepting updates. I wouldn't expect any system CAP has to be any better. Especially since we tend to do it on the cheap.

The main thing I've learned in my first year of CAP is that everything is 90% or more dependent on the local level. There's no bopping down the street to the experts to fix it.

I'll take that to the next level. Just as with the military, you better be on top of your own stuff and be self-reliant.

What frustrates me is the level of work this causes for the unit, particularly those of us in Cadet Programs, where the people affected by it are the ones who lose morale over it. 14-year-olds don't understand "why can't they just..." I'm 13 years older. I can't figure it out either.
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Alaric
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Posts: 669

« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2017, 12:12:29 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then
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kwe1009
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Posts: 589

« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2017, 12:26:21 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.
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Alaric
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Posts: 669

« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2017, 12:36:32 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me for instance Member A of Samsung Wing is asked to help support a large AE activity in LG Wing, she is given permission by the Commander of Samsung.  The Wing commander of LG Wing notes what a great job she is doing and wants to present her a Commander's Commendation, why would the commander of Samsung even get involved?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2017, 12:51:26 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

Cite please.

This may be tradition, but I have never seen this codified anywhere in the regulations and know of a number of situations
that conflict with the above, not to mention the above would also insinuate that a Group CC would only be able to present an
Achievement Award to members of his own Group and I know that's not the case, certainly not for decs awarded outside eservices.

I also wouldn't argue that the above isn't the current logic of eServices approval chain for 120s, but we all know how well eServices
accommodates "stuff tat would never happen".  /eyeroll emoji/

The only restriction I'm aware of is that only CC's can recommend other CC's for decs.


Well, there you go:
CAPR 39-3 Page 5:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R039_003_83459660D4F44.pdf

"c. Region commanders are authorized to award the Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious
Service Award, the Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award and the
Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. These awards may be approved by region commanders for
all members of units within their regions.
Announcements of such awards will be made in personnel
actions published by regional headquarters.

d. Wing commanders are authorized to award the Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP
Achievement Award and the Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving. These awards may be
approved by wing commanders for all members of units within their wings.
Announcement of such
awards will be made in personnel actions published by wing headquarters.

e. Group commanders are authorized to award the CAP Achievement Award. These awards
may be approved by group commanders for all members of units within their group.
If a wing does
not have a group structure, the wing commander may designate who has the authority to approve this
award."


And while the above doesn't contain the word "only", based on the way and nature of CAP regs, "that which is not authorized,
is prohibited" (please, run to your keyboard and argue that point again, it's raining by me).  with that said,
I can say with certainty that awards and decs have been handed out for years in violation of the above.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 12:57:21 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 828

« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2017, 01:46:20 PM »

This goes back to the should versus is, I suppose.

Again, inconsistent.

If the regulations say only those awards may be initiated and approved at that echelon, then that's that. In OHWG, the Wing Commander has delegated authority to Group and Squadron Commanders to approve service ribbons at their level.

So back to the matter of Encampment in particular, I guess the Encampment Commander would not have the authority to issue those ribbons. So the questions persists: Why did cadets walk away from Encampment two years ago with Encampment ribbons but not in the past two years? Did the Encampment Commanders then overstep and present awards they were not authorized to present?

Inconsistency.

I've had this issue with Red Service Ribbons. Who has one? Who doesn't? This is, by far, the most "forgotten" award I've seen. Some people had it without their personnel file (hard copy) reflecting it. Some people didn't have one at all. People from other squadrons who transferred in didn't have them.

We appointed a dedicated Personnel Officer a few months ago, and he's working to try and get the files organized to figure out what's what, but it's not an easy task to go through the regulations and each person's electronic and paper files to figure out who has what and what is missing. Not to mention asking people in general: "What ribbons do you have?" I'm at the point where I say just bring in your ribbon rack, and we're going to run through a checklist to tick off what you have and what you should have. Then, we'll start working on the paperwork (expect a flood of emails, Group CC :P ). It's so hard to catch up, though. The mess just continues to roll over.

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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,250

« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2017, 01:55:42 PM »

So back to the matter of Encampment in particular, I guess the Encampment Commander would not have the authority to issue those ribbons. So the questions persists: Why did cadets walk away from Encampment two years ago with Encampment ribbons but not in the past two years? Did the Encampment Commanders then overstep and present awards they were not authorized to present?

Inconsistency.

Inconsistency in the execution of the Encampment Program from Wing to Wing?   

Blasphemy!  Blunderbuss' from hot air balloons at dawn!



In all seriousness, the certification comes from the CAP-USAF (until about 2013) and now the Encampment CC,
the issuance of the ribbon itself is a technicality of poorly written regulations which don't jive with the actual
program.  Some encampments included the actual ribbon with a certificate as a value-add, some didn't.
It's $100 some encampments didn't/don't have to spend.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 828

« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2017, 02:35:56 PM »

Blasphemy!  Blunderbuss' from hot air balloons at dawn!



Keeping this just because it makes me chuckle...

Quote
In all seriousness, the certification comes from the CAP-USAF (until about 2013) and now the Encampment CC,
the issuance of the ribbon itself is a technicality of poorly written regulations which don't jive with the actual
program.  Some encampments included the actual ribbon with a certificate as a value-add, some didn't.
It's $100 some encampments didn't/don't have to spend.

I guess it goes back to the question:
Why is all of this not available in eServices, even if it's the home unit putting the info into the system?

Funding is one thing. Wing-to-wing is another. But within the same Wing, inconsistency astounds.

This is not intended to cut-down the Ohio Wing, but it seems like some Wings seem to operate fairly well whereas other Wings are just sporadic at virtually everything. Now, some people see the good in another unit and go "I wish I was there." I'm much more the type to say "I want us to be that good; even better."

I don't expect every single activity/program to be the same. Encampments will definitely vary. The intended output should be the same. Basic Training at Fort Jackson will differ from Fort Sill. Boot Camp at Parris Island will differ from San Diego. What they walk away with in knowledge and skill should be the same. The experience may, however, differ.

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,731
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2017, 05:34:57 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

I am assigned to CAWG. Back in 2008, with CAWG permission, I staffed a MIWG encampment. My name went on the F20. It shows up in eServices. I wear the ribbon.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 589

« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 09:28:24 PM »



This is another area where clarification and simplification is needed, and "self-actualizing" ribbons,
badges, etc., should not need "double-really-meant-it"  approval - encampment, red service, NCSA, and
I'm sure others could and should be added to the awards area automatically upon the credit
for that activity being posted.  Anything less insinuates by design that a member could possibly
get activity credit but not the ribbon, which is an argument I have heard made by ahem..."less experienced"
commanders.  "They can't wear the ribbon until >I< approve it."


I have seen (and don't know the validity of) when a person has been made an award from outside the Wing, the awardee was told it was not valid until the Wing Commander of her current wing had approved it.  This was several years ago and things may have changed since then

This is actually correct.  A Wing CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Wing and a Region CC can only authorize awards for members of his/her Region.

The Air Force is not much different regarding award approvals either.

I am assigned to CAWG. Back in 2008, with CAWG permission, I staffed a MIWG encampment. My name went on the F20. It shows up in eServices. I wear the ribbon.

That is actually different.  I am talking about awards.  The encampment ribbon is a decoration just like the NCSA ribbon.  Both of these are documented on a CAPF2A.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,731
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2017, 11:45:10 PM »

You have it backwards.

CAPR 39-3 lays it out like this:

The Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award,Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious Service Award, Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award, Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving, National Commanderís Unit Citation Award, and Unit Citation Award are decorations, which are awarded for exceptional performance.

Awards are lower in the pecking order, and are those things listed in sections C, D, and E of the reg - CP achievements and milestones, PD awards, and AE awards.

At the bottom are Activity and Service ribbons, which include, among others, the NCSA and Encampment ribbon.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 589

« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2017, 11:02:09 AM »

You have it backwards.

CAPR 39-3 lays it out like this:

The Silver Medal of Valor, Bronze Medal of Valor, Distinguished Service Award,Exceptional Service Award, Meritorious Service Award, Commanderís Commendation Award, CAP Achievement Award, Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving, National Commanderís Unit Citation Award, and Unit Citation Award are decorations, which are awarded for exceptional performance.

Awards are lower in the pecking order, and are those things listed in sections C, D, and E of the reg - CP achievements and milestones, PD awards, and AE awards.

At the bottom are Activity and Service ribbons, which include, among others, the NCSA and Encampment ribbon.

Thanks.  I always get the terms awards and decorations backwards.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Do Decorations Show in eServices for Cadets?
 


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