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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tools of the trade  |  Topic: Deer Sled as Litter?
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Author Topic: Deer Sled as Litter?  (Read 2171 times)
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 05:23:41 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 06:40:25 PM »

Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?

Not so much scolding you, but suggesting a rearrangement of priorities, and steps in your process.

You are suggesting spending money, possibly squadron funds. This needs a buy-in from the command structure. If they aren't interested, then spending your time, and ours, exploring a dead end issue is non-productive.

As for the two presented options - yours, and the litter in the subsequent post - I see a clear choice, and it isn't the deer sled. The sled is designed to be dragged, not carried. Under no circumstances whatsoever, unless as an absolute last resort, would I drag someone any distance requiring that sort of equipment. The litter is designed to be carried, hence the "participate in a litter carry" task. The sled doesn't lend itself well to carrying, even with modification.

Your enthusiasm is good, but it needs to be properly channeled in order to best benefit your unit.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,823

« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 06:50:22 PM »

The other part would be some understanding of CAP squadron finances - $700 is more
then many (most?) squadron spend in a fiscal year, let alone for one piece of equipment,
even if it's the most hard-kewl thing ever produced for SAR.

You're suggesting in a serious tone that a product which has a very limited use even in the most active
squadrons, and which costs more then either an MK4, an L-Per and even many CAP radios, would be appropriate
for a local unit to purchase (absent a mission mandate).

This is akin to the trauma kits, backboards, plate carriers and similar gear some members drag around never to be used.

That's the main reason for the somewhat visceral response to the post, not anything personal, or an attempt to stunt a
cadet from "learning" (which is basically a straw man in this case).
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 07:22:32 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,287
Unit: Classified

« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 07:09:44 PM »

Waukwiz,

No I am not trying to discourage you from learning or seeking information.  As SarDragon and Eclipse have pointed out I am trying to get you to talk to your leadership to discuss it before you spend a lot of effort and time on something they may have no interest in pursuing for any number of reasons.  A refocusing and shifting of the priorities of task you are trying to accomplish. 

The biggest thing here with your idea is the liability of it.  You will incur a civil liability in putting someone on a product not designed or intended for lifesaving and transporting them, you incur a civil liability in rendering aid and care above basic first aid (this has been beaten over and over).  Your best option is to leave the extraction of a victim especially one that may require use of a litter to trained and certified professionals. 

You are talking about an expense the CC may not want to pay. 

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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 10:47:07 PM »

Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?
As for the two presented options - yours, and the litter in the subsequent post - I see a clear choice, and it isn't the deer sled. The sled is designed to be dragged, not carried. Under no circumstances whatsoever, unless as an absolute last resort, would I drag someone any distance requiring that sort of equipment. The litter is designed to be carried, hence the "participate in a litter carry" task. The sled doesn't lend itself well to carrying, even with modification.

Thank you, sir. This was the answer I was looking for. I certainly would not suggest dragging someone in a deer sled, outside of last resort, which is why I mentioned the modifying it appropriately. I see your point about this discussion being a waste of my time and that of those who care enough to add their input, all I was looking for was a little guidance from the vast experience of others on this board on the facts and opinions of the piece of equipment in question.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 11:55:36 PM by waukwiz » Logged
Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 10:57:33 PM »

You're suggesting in a serious tone that a product which has a very limited use even in the most active
squadrons, and which costs more then either an MK4, an L-Per and even many CAP radios, would be appropriate for a local unit to purchase (absent a mission mandate).

What I've been asserting is the exact opposite of that. It's absurd for a squadron to spend that much money on something like that. This is why I'm looking for ways to not spend that much money while maximizing operational capabilities and safety.

Regardless, I do appreciate you offering your guidance.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,993
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 11:01:15 PM »

The way I see it, by the time you get done modifying the sled into something resembling the SKED, you will have spent more time (at some reasonable pay rate; what's your time worth?) and money than it's worth to produce what will likely be an inferior product.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2017, 11:17:08 PM »

Waukwiz,

No I am not trying to discourage you from learning or seeking information.  As SarDragon and Eclipse have pointed out I am trying to get you to talk to your leadership to discuss it before you spend a lot of effort and time on something they may have no interest in pursuing for any number of reasons.  A refocusing and shifting of the priorities of task you are trying to accomplish. 

The biggest thing here with your idea is the liability of it.  You will incur a civil liability in putting someone on a product not designed or intended for lifesaving and transporting them, you incur a civil liability in rendering aid and care above basic first aid (this has been beaten over and over).  Your best option is to leave the extraction of a victim especially one that may require use of a litter to trained and certified professionals. 

You are talking about an expense the CC may not want to pay.

I'm sorry, sir. I misread your response as a knee-jerk reaction to a cadet member asking about a semi-controversial topic.

The civil liability from using an implement outside of it's intended use hadn't occurred to me, and I'm thankful you've pointed it out. Upon further thought, that issue alone is enough to turn me against the idea.

I am not sure, however, that in an emergency where seconds may count, I'll be too concerned about whether or not moving a victim to safety is care above first aid, or like I mentioned before, when a cadet has a syncope from being in the sun too long, not hydrating, not changing his socks, not having cardboard in his cover, etc. and needs to be moved to shade.

Thank you very much for the advice you've given; I now understand it's not worth looking too deep into things like this when it's likely I'll suggest my idea to my ESO and look like a fool for doing so.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 60
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 11:21:04 PM »

The way I see it, by the time you get done modifying the sled into something resembling the SKED, you will have spent more time (at some reasonable pay rate; what's your time worth?) and money than it's worth to produce what will likely be an inferior product.

I'm a strange guy; a weekend spent building a rescue litter is more appealing to me than a weekend spent doing much else. Even if the time builds up to being worth $700 at a low wage  :P
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Cadet ES Officer
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,497

« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2017, 03:49:49 PM »

Quote

...when a cadet has a syncope from being in the sun too long, not hydrating, not changing his socks, not having cardboard in his cover, You mean hat, right? And what would cardboard in the hat do here? etc. and needs to be moved to shade.


Are you kidding me?

I would be surprised that you would stop to wait for a stretcher to move a cadet to the shade. If you do that, you would show no knowledge of first aid. As soon as (s)he starts showing signs of a heat emergency, if you are competent enough to recognize them, you should be competent enough to take proper action! You do not need a sked, stretcher, or whatever to take this proper action. That person would be ambulatory enough!

 ???
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 03:57:35 PM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 885
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2017, 09:44:24 PM »

... having said and anguished through all of that...

My unit has (more than once) had to use body bags (at the request of the county coroner) to assist in removal of remains. They form a standard element in our GT kit. We have also pressed them into service for personnel transport, without elaboration on what type of gear they are.  We also do have an actual stretcher, but I thought I'd offer from answering the OP's original intent.

https://bodybagstore.com/disaster-bags.html


I would like to suggest that a well equipped team which FEMA resource-types as a heavy type team, would have both a set of bags and a real litter. Half and full boards and Stokes are probably beyond the low angle non technical capabilities of almost all CAP teams, and are a waste of money (and a contributor to a false sense of competence in those areas).

V/r
Spam


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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 898

« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2017, 09:28:53 AM »

{snip}....
Half and full boards and Stokes are probably beyond the low angle non technical capabilities of almost all CAP teams, and are a waste of money (and a contributor to a false sense of competence in those areas).

V/r
Spam

In particular use of the long (or short) backboard is pretty much limited to very particular cases (ie almost not used) in most EMS and even rescue scenarios except as a patient movement device.  One of the benefits to the Stokes style is not so much a technical aspect as a "put handles on the patient" for the carry out of any non-"road" or short distance, as those encountered in the wilderness environment, in my personal and varied experience, is still the best tool for the job. (durability, drag-ability, patient protection are all other benefits).

More in line with the OP's question; the benefit to the SKED type is portability and weight.  The fact that I can roll it up and carry it relatively compact is a huge benefit, especially if I am not "sure" I am actually going to use it.  Yes you can drag it as needed (but I have seen a number of them that have been drug, I would be very hesitant to use it again for any patient transport)  As a long time EMS, fire, rescue, and SAR guy (outside of CAP) I still dont really prefer the SKED type for anything except confined space rescue. 
The Stokes style is more versatile and user friendly.  If you have a CAP SAR team that actively participates in actual missing person searches (or at least has the potential too) I would recommend at minimum training on the Stokes stretcher; it is the most likely one to come in contact with on an actual mission.  There are plenty out there that can be had for minimal outlay of cash (I'd say less than $100 used) more than likely there is someone out there willing to give one away (give away's may require your "refurbishing" skills,  usually replacing the "wire" and a new coat of paint)

If you are looking for a just in case sort of tool, as mentioned, any of the non rigid litters will do in a pinch.  For a little more robust and ease of carrying, the standard folding military litter is a good all around stretcher.  Not as technically inclined as a stokes, and not as "cool" factor as the SKED, but a good tool for most aspects of what a CAP unit would need.  Disaster, activity standby etc etc.

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tools of the trade  |  Topic: Deer Sled as Litter?
 


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