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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tools of the trade  |  Topic: Deer Sled as Litter?
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Author Topic: Deer Sled as Litter?  (Read 2476 times)
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« on: March 22, 2017, 10:59:27 AM »

In the interest of keeping enough money in my squadron's budget for UAV racing, I'm looking at ways to acquire SAR team equipment as inexpensive as possible while still being adequate for service. I came across the idea somewhere of using a deer sled as a folding litter instead of a SKED, cutting the price down by nearly 95%.

Does anyone have any experience with using a deer sled such as the one linked as a rescue litter?

Does it hold up as good as a SKED? Good enough?

Would it be practical to modify one for easier carry, instead of dragging as intended, to keep with the team gear?

The one I'm looking at https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Deer-Sleighr-Game-Sled/dp/B001CJI7XA
Feel free to add any other suggestions.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,620

« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 11:01:47 AM »

I would go with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ESX556/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 before that. I own one and it seems fine for what it is.

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2017, 11:39:39 AM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.

+1 - the odds of a CAP team ever carrying an actual victim from a crash scene are so remote as to be statistically zero, and certainly a $700 system
designed for airlift is wholly inappropriate for a CAP squadron to be purchasing with corporate money.

If it's deemed necessary to "buy" something, the link Spaceman provide is more then enough, otherwise an improvised litter, in the rare instance it's needed,
would be fine.

A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2017, 12:32:24 PM »

statistically zero,
Saw that coming.

A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
My question is whether or not there are significant differences between it and a SKED type folding stretcher that affect its usefulness as a rescue litter. Simply being designed for a different purpose doesn't necessarily mean it won't work fine as one. Hair ties weren't designed to stop my flashlight from flopping around, crayons weren't designed as emergency candles, socks weren't designed for soaking to cool water bottles, but they get the job done. Are there better options available? Certainly. However, there's no way I'm going to dump that much of my own or or my unit's bank when there's another way that's so much cheaper and works well enough.

...certainly a $700 system designed for airlift is wholly inappropriate for a CAP squadron to be purchasing with corporate money.

100% agree. That's the point of this post.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2017, 12:43:38 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,620

« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2017, 01:06:43 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

We've done training with it and it works fine. As for being fabric, if it gets contaminated, spend $15 on a new one.

If you're going to be at GTA this weekend I'll show it off in person.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2017, 01:10:49 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose? 
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2017, 01:16:23 PM »

If you're going to be at GTA this weekend I'll show it off in person.
Good deal.

After looking at the reviews on Amazon, I'm a little concerned at the quality control. The experience with yours may be different than that of one I'd buy. If I did end up buying one I'd be sure to test it myself before I try to use it with anyone else.

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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2017, 01:19:31 PM »

A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
My question is whether or not there are significant differences between it and a SKED type folding stretcher that affect its usefulness as a rescue litter. Simply being designed for a different purpose doesn't necessarily mean it won't work fine as one. Hair ties weren't designed to stop my flashlight from flopping around, crayons weren't designed as emergency candles, socks weren't designed for soaking to cool water bottles, but they get the job done. Are there better options available? Certainly.

Apples and hand-grenades, however yes, there are >significant< "differences" between a piece of plastic designed to drag a dead animal
on the ground and a purpose built rescue device intended to be able to airlift a living being who is most likely seriously injured.

However, there's no way I'm going to dump that much of my own or or my unit's bank when there's another way that's so much cheaper and works well enough.

I would hazard it's pretty much a given that your squadron won't even consider spending $700 on a litter, regardless of,
but especially in light of, the fact that there are purpose-built devices, assuming you actually need this at all, under $20.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,053

« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2017, 01:20:15 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

^^^ Herein lies wisdom
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2017, 01:21:21 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 01:28:52 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
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waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 01:34:00 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"
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Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2017, 02:13:47 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

This is a big issue. The liability is enormous. If it is used, and the subject dies or is further injured, be prepared to be sued and, depending on the state, lose. This isn't a standard piece of gear, there is no training on its use, and you're opening yourself up to legal action. Leave evac to the pros.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 02:23:13 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further. 
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,620

« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 02:53:17 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

You say that, yet participate in a litter carry is a required task for GTM3. I'm not saying we should be doing this either, but at some level CAP has decided it is in the people moving business.
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 03:00:45 PM »

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

You say that, yet participate in a litter carry is a required task for GTM3. I'm not saying we should be doing this either, but at some level CAP has decided it is in the people moving business.

It can be a task, is the org going to front the cost in the event of a civil suit? 
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 28,080

« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »

Yes, actually.
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"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 04:13:59 PM »

Yes, actually.

As long as it's being done according to the training and with the equipment described. Anything else would be highly questionable.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 04:53:47 PM »

Yes, actually.

As long as it's being done according to the training and with the equipment described. Anything else would be highly questionable.

Now that is covered.  Buy in from leadership is key as is using the right equipment for the job. 
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