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SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« on: February 06, 2017, 10:18:43 PM »

The Civil Air Patrol has made a commitment to comply with the principles of the National Incident Management System.  Those participating in a variety of Emergency Services roles have to complete certain training requirements.

The Civil Air Patrol being a National Organization composed entirely of volunteers we tend to have issue with recruiting an retention because we don't have a national training focus or the Mission numbers to keep our member's actively engaged.

We have a continuing training process with the constant influx of volunteers.  I know I have squadrons in my wing where the is very limited access to the internet if they have access at all, not to mention how difficult it may be for some of our members to take the online versions of ICS 100, 200, 700, 800.  FEMA says that as an agency we can locally teach the class as long as it's taught to FEMA/DHS standards and the local agency can issue the certificates of completion.  CAPR 60-3 says that we can do it and even references the Criteria for Civil Air Patrol Instructors found on the CAPMEMBERS website.

However, When I submit a request through the Chain of Command, I'm told that "Civil Air Patrol" will NOT issue completion certificates for these Courses.  Does anybody know the reason for the disconnect?  I'm a State Adjunct instructor for the advanced ICS/NIMS classes and can issue certificates for 300, 400, 402 from the state (when I meet their class requirements).  They won't sponsor certificates for the lower level classes because they can be issued by the agency that hosts the training.

Has anybody ever experienced this and share with me what you know?   Thanks
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2017, 11:08:11 PM »

The Civil Air Patrol being a National Organization composed entirely of volunteers we tend to have issue with recruiting an retention because we don't have a national training focus or the Mission numbers to keep our member's actively engaged.

Non-concur.  CAP has a very robust focus on recurrent training, the issue is lack of manpower coupled with the administrative workload it takes
to run a squadron eats the available time of those who are involved, and leaves little time for anything else - especially in units with cadets,
which is most of them. The lack of mission, in many areas, is a direct result of the lack of people, and thus trained people, and thus the circle starts again.

With no people, no one is involved in outreach to the local EMAs, etc., no one knows who we are, no one calls when there's a problem, CAP vows to fix that.
Lack of top down outreach of 3-, and 4-letter agencies is also an issue as if CAP was in the playbooks, it would get called, but it's not in the playbooks
because of lack of manpower and outreach.

Also, lack of updated doctrine to fit the evolving needs of the area, i.e. DR, is a continuing problem.

CAP has made it very clear with any number of stances that it is not in the business of certifying training
for other organizations, be it ICS, First Aid, or any of its operational qualifications.  It's not interested in assuming the
liability or infrastructure expense of providing that training, nor does it need to since the Federal government already does it for free.

FWIW, I don't buy this argument about it being hard to get on the internet. In all but the most rural areas, internet access
is pretty much a fact of daily life for anyone in the US who attends school, has a job, or is under 70.  Other then pure exceptions
or edge cases, this just isn't a "thing" beyond an excuse.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2017, 11:44:56 PM »

Hi, Sardoc.

Yes, lack of internet access is indeed a 'thing' despite the elitist claims of some.

Yes, we've seen problems with it in my Wing, and we've worked around it by providing corporate laptops at the meeting place for members to take classes and tests online during regularly scheduled meeting times. Since that's a valid path to gaining online certs, that's what I'd recommend as an interim solution.

Long term, should you have a need to do a mass class, you may need to work your ICS <300 class credits exclusively through your FEMA instructor cert, turning in your attendance logs for credit outside CAP Form 17 lanes. Thanks for your diligence in seeking excellence and access to training for all, Sir.


V/r
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SARDOC
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Posts: 1,430

« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2017, 11:47:24 PM »

I agree to an extent about the recruiting retention cycle.

In the 60-3 it has conflicting information concerning the NIMS training. 

First it says
 
Quote
Note: Certain tasks and the associated training are expected to be provided by external agencies.
For example NIMS and First Aid training will normally be provided by another agency.

But then it goes on to say


Quote
g. National Incident Management System (NIMS) training must be provided by
appropriately trained and qualified instructors in accordance with established Department of
Homeland Security policies and objectives when training is not completed on-line. Instructor
requirements can be found on the NHQ CAP/DOS website.

Then on the NHQ CAP/DOS website
Quote
National Incident Management System (NIMS) training must be provided by appropriately trained and qualified instructors in accordance with established Department of Homeland Security (DHS) policies and objectives when training is not completed on-line. The current requirements for CAP members to teach the above NIMS courses are:
IS-100 Instructor Requirements
·        Two instructors are recommended to teach IS-100 classes, but are not required.
·        Lead and Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200 and IS-700 NIMS.
·        Lead Instructors must have training and experience in adult education and have served as an Incident Commander (IC) or in a command staff or general staff position. See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Prior versions are acceptable.  See the Course Standards section below.  It is not necessary to take the course again as materials are revised.
IS-200 Instructor Requirements
·        Two instructors are recommended to teach IS-200 classes, but are not required.
·        Lead Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, ICS-300, and IS-700.
·        Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, and IS-700.
·        The Lead Instructor must have training and experience in adult education and have served as an IC or in a command staff or general staff position.  See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Prior versions are acceptable.  See the Course Standards section below.  It is not necessary to take the course again as materials are revised.
ICS 300 Instructor Requirements
·        At least two instructors are required to teach ICS-300 classes.
·        Lead Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, ICS-300, ICS-400, and IS-700.
·        Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, ICS-300, and IS-700.
·        Lead instructors must have served as served as IC or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP).
·        Lead Instructors must have training and experience in adult education.  See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Unit instructors must have served as served as IC or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.
·        ICS-300 must be completed in residence.  There is not an on-line version of this course, though there are online prep and review courses available.  See the Course Standards section below.
·        Prior versions are acceptable.  It is not necessary to take the course again as materials are revised.
ICS-400 Instructor Requirements
·        At least two instructors are required to teach ICS-400 classes.
·        Lead Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, ICS-300, ICS-400, IS-700, and IS-800.
·        Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, ICS-300, ICS-400, IS-700, and IS-800.
·        Lead instructors must have served as served as IC or in a command staff or general staff position in an incident that went beyond one operational period or required a written Incident Action Plan (IAP).
·        The Lead Instructor must have training and experience in adult education. See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Unit instructors must have served as served as an IC or in a command staff or general staff position; or, have specialized knowledge and experience appropriate for the audience, such as public health or public works.
·        ICS-400 must be completed in residence.  There is not an on-line version of this course. See the Course Standards section below.
·        Personnel having completed ICS-400 previously in accordance with the
IS-700 Instructor Requirements
·        Two instructors are recommended to teach IS-700 classes, but are not required.
·        Lead and Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200 and IS-700.
·        Lead Instructors must have training and experience in adult education and have served as an IC or in a command staff or general staff position.  See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Prior versions are acceptable. See the Course Standards section below.  It is not necessary to take the course again as materials are revised.
IS-800 Instructor Requirements
·        Two instructors are recommended to teach IS-800 classes, but are not required.
·        Lead and Unit Instructors must have successfully completed IS-100, IS-200, IS-700, and IS-800.
·        Lead Instructors must have training and experience in adult education and have served as an IC or in a command staff or general staff position.  See the section on Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training below.
·        Prior versions are acceptable. See the Course Standards section below.  It is not necessary to take the course again as materials are revised.
Adult Education Experience and Instructor Training
There are several acceptable types of formal adult education experience and instructor training to meet the requirements to present NIMS training in residence for Civil Air Patrol:
·        DHS Office of Grants and Training’s Instructor Training Certification Course or equivalent state course
·        National Wildfire Coordinating Group Facilitative Instructor M-410 course
·        Emergency Management Institute Master Trainer Program
·        National Fire Academy Instructional Methodology class
·        College education courses
·        USAF Academic Instructor School
·        American Red Cross, National Safety Counsel, American Heart Association, or American Safety and Health Institute instructor development training
·        Equivalent instructor certification courses as determined by the Wing or higher commander or their designee.  NHQ CAP/DO can provide additional assistance in determining instructor course equivalency.
Some states require their instructors to complete specific courses in order to teach ICS, or for courses to be recognized locally.  Wings that desire to conduct their own courses should coordinate with their state and local counterparts in order to be sure that training will be recognized.  Wings desiring to restrict instructor qualifications further than noted above can do so through an approved supplement to CAPR 60-3.

Course Standards
Courses developed using the National Standard Curriculum Development Guidance document meet NIMS training requirements. However, it is the responsibility of the sponsoring agency or organization, CAP in this case, to verify that the training guidelines are met.
The DHS NIMS Integration Center (NIC) considers anyone who has taken all applicable NIMS courses to their level of responsibility within an incident to have satisfied the NIMS training elements as part of the NIMS Implementation Activities, Compliance Matrix and Metrics. Therefore it is immaterial to the NIC if someone takes the courses from USFA, EMI, NWCG, USDA, EPA, Coast Guard, State Agencies, CAP, a private vendor etc., as long as the courses meet the content and objectives outlined in the National Standard Curriculum Training Development Guidance. The NIC discourages the establishment of specific agency/organization version ICS courses as prerequisites for additional training acceptance. CAP will generally use EMI materials, but will accept courses that meet the established National Standard Curriculum Development Guidance.  Personnel do not need to re-take courses with CAP as long as they can provide documentation of completion of training from a recognized organization, using acceptable curriculum appropriately.


If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it?  My state is one of those that does require a special class to teach these classes which I've done.  The only caveat is that the class be taught to FEMA standards as noted above (which I was going to do anyway) and that the Agency teaching it provide the certificates for it.

I don't think that FEMA incurs any kind of liability by teaching these classes online and I don't think that CAP would incur any liability if I teach it per the instruction to FEMA Standards, part of the standard is that the local agency provide a certificate.  No adding, No taking away any topics.  It's a canned program for a reason.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2017, 11:53:15 PM »

Yes, lack of internet access is indeed a 'thing' despite the elitist claims of some.

Yes, we've seen problems with it in my Wing, and we've worked around it by providing corporate laptops at the meeting place for members to take classes and tests online during regularly scheduled meeting times. Since that's a valid path to gaining online certs, that's what I'd recommend as an interim solution.

Internet access is considered an "elitist" thing?  You do realize there are Federal programs that provide
internet service and cell phones with data plans to people on public assistance?  Right?

You also literally made my argument - I didn't say "Fiber at home" - school, Starbucks, library, McDonald's, local hotel lobby, CAP corporate laptops,
etc., etc.  Not everyone has Gigabit to the desk, but if you can't find someplace to get on the internet, for free if necessary, at a reasonable speed,
regardless of your age, you are just not trying.

I don't think that FEMA incurs any kind of liability by teaching these classes online and I don't think that CAP would incur any liability if I teach it per the instruction to FEMA Standards,

Of course they do, or at least have the potential to be enjoined if a lawyer connects the dots between the cause of loss and something that was
taught in one of those classes, of course FEMA is going to have Tort protection as an arm of the feds.

part of the standard is that the local agency provide a certificate.  No adding, No taking away any topics.  It's a canned program for a reason.

And who certifies the agency for them to instruct?  This is the same as First Aid - CAP stays out of that business so that
the deep pockets can b e deflected elsewhere if someone puts a tourniquet around a victims neck. 

Counsel for the Plaintiff: "Who told you to do that?"

Counsel for CAP: "Weren't us...was THEM!

Counsel for First Aid instructor: "...nertz..."

The BSA does internal training because they have no operational mission that puts them in direct, government sponsored
way of SAR, however if some Scout mis-sets a bone, or does something else which cause a permanent injury or loss,
I could absolutely see a lawyer making a connect-the-dots case about where the training came from, and in that case
it could actually be on an individual Scout or Leader.
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SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2017, 11:58:19 PM »

Long term, should you have a need to do a mass class, you may need to work your ICS <300 class credits exclusively through your FEMA instructor cert, turning in your attendance logs for credit outside CAP Form 17 lanes. Thanks for your diligence in seeking excellence and access to training for all, Sir.

Thanks Spam.

In the move to save money FEMA stopped supporting the mail in roster option and in lieu of that authorized the agency teaching the class to issue the certificates.  For my state the certificates have to include my signature in addition to a standard blurb indicating which standard and program year of the course curriculum.  I think they updated it this year to include "Contact Hours" on the certificate as well.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2017, 12:24:42 AM »

As an Instructor in any topic your best defense is that you taught the class to the legally prescribed standard.  It's when you deviate from the program when you start taking on that liability personally.

If there is a problem with the standard that makes the issue for the Organization that promulgated the standard.  As the Instructor, I keep my Roster, all audio/visual, handouts, Instructor handbook/curriculum, etc... 

"Your honor here are the course materials that I presented to the class"  "These are the standards and the course materials provided by the DHS/FEMA for agencies to meet their NIMS Compliance in accordance with HSPD-5 which my agency is committed to as outlined by CAPR 60-3" "FEMA/EMI authorized the Local generation of course completion certificates in accordance with their course guidelines"

CAP has liability in a lot of the things we do.  We "Self-Certify" a lot of things.  Every SQTR is a self certification.  Do you think there is more or less liability in flying an airplane vs sitting and learning the definitions of a few words?
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 890
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2017, 01:03:46 AM »

Good points, Sardoc.

I have members in my unit that show up driving Maseratis and missed encampments because they went on safaris last summer (no kidding) and I have members that go a couple of months or skip meetings because they cant afford renewal fees or gas money. Those members cannot afford a laptop, and in some cases can't afford the cash to buy fast food and loiter in a restaurant. Quite a wide range... so I'm motivated to reduce the bar and to encourage a family/teaming atmosphere.

First aid training is another example; we're engaged in getting our people to complete the required curriculum via free online course modules, plus a day of hands-on training at the unit to meet the required standard. Some folks just cant afford the fees of the "professional volunteer" instructors... I think you have the right of it when you hold to that stated standard. Despite hyperbole about setting bones, etc.

V/r
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2017, 01:08:20 AM »

As an Instructor in any topic your best defense is that you taught the class to the legally prescribed standard.  It's when you deviate from the program when you start taking on that liability personally.
Maybe and agree, usually.

But knowing there is a standard, and having been certified that you understand the standard and can teach it are two different things.
I know the standard for teaching motorcycle safety to the norms established by both the MSF and my state's DOT, but until I am tested in
a written and practical manner and those bodies certify my competence, I'm just a civilian like everyone else with nothing that says I have a clue.

Holding up a book you can't prove you read won't help much. This is why most expert witness and police testimony starts with the
witness' credentials being read into the court records (and sometimes being challenged by the defense).

CAP has liability in a lot of the things we do.  We "Self-Certify" a lot of things.  Every SQTR is a self certification. 

Yes, CAP does, and there's a >LOT< it doesn't, either, for logistical, practical, legal, or a combination of those reasons.
It doesn't certify pilots, it doesn't provide First Aid Training, it doesn't certify aircraft mechanics, and it doesn't certify
automobile drivers, among other things too numerous to mention.

And it doesn't certify NIMS training, because there is no need to - the Feds provide a free, robust, easy to use, system that
is accessible to everyone.  Why even have the conversation?

Now, just like First Aid, ICS 300 & 400, etc., if yo can provide that training under the mantle of another certifying body that
CAP accepts, good on 'ye and better for those in your AOR, but CAP has no need to bother with the infrastructure or going through the
when Uncle Sam already does it for free.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 01:14:57 AM »

If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it? 

Probably for the edge case where there is just no other way to accomplish the training, which is going to be so rare as to non-existent.

In the time it would take to put together the instructors and classes (in most areas absent someone like you), the class is done online.

Seriously, these things take like 15 minutes, 30 if you get coffee and go the head.
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SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 01:51:11 AM »

But knowing there is a standard, and having been certified that you understand the standard and can teach it are two different things.
I know the standard for teaching motorcycle safety to the norms established by both the MSF and my state's DOT, but until I am tested in
a written and practical manner and those bodies certify my competence, I'm just a civilian like everyone else with nothing that says I have a clue.

Holding up a book you can't prove you read won't help much. This is why most expert witness and police testimony starts with the
witness' credentials being read into the court records (and sometimes being challenged by the defense).

So when it comes to Credentials, which I meet the requirements for my agency.  ^^^See LONG post above.  As posted on the Website of the National Headquarters of the Civil Air Patrol.  I also meet FEMA and State standards as required. 

Quote
And it doesn't certify NIMS training, because there is no need to - the Feds provide a free, robust, easy to use, system that
is accessible to everyone.  Why even have the conversation?

Now, just like First Aid, ICS 300 & 400, etc., if yo can provide that training under the mantle of another certifying body that
CAP accepts, good on 'ye and better for those in your AOR, but CAP has no need to bother with the infrastructure or going through the
when Uncle Sam already does it for free.

Ideally, I would love for everyone to do this online.  Makes my job that much easier.  I'd rather not spend extra Saturdays away from my kids (and job, because I do work weekends)  It's just not happening is my point.  I have people who need it who cite a wide variety of reasons why they can't.  I've had groups ask me to come and do it specifically because the website has criteria for who can/can't teach.  I'm just not allowed by the agency to issue completion certificates.  The only reason FEMA and the State don't provide certificates for these levels is because they have to data entry each one and pay to create and mail the certificates.  That's it.  Easy solution...make your own.  CAP says No.

For my 300/400/402 classes, the state will mail me all my course materials allow my students to register through the state and they provide certificates. 

CAP has already laid out all the ground work for the instruction of the classes.  I'm just asking that the let me create the documentation. 

https://www.capmembers.com/emergency_services/operations_support/national-incident-management-system-nims/

In there is even says that CAP can be the Sponsoring Agency for these classes

Quote
However, it is the responsibility of the sponsoring agency or organization, CAP in this case, to verify that the training guidelines are met.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 02:29:08 AM »

Good points, Sardoc.

I have members in my unit that show up driving Maseratis and missed encampments because they went on safaris last summer (no kidding) and I have members that go a couple of months or skip meetings because they cant afford renewal fees or gas money. Those members cannot afford a laptop, and in some cases can't afford the cash to buy fast food and loiter in a restaurant. Quite a wide range... so I'm motivated to reduce the bar and to encourage a family/teaming atmosphere.

This...is a lot of "Who shot John?"  You're trying so hard to find the reasoning why they can't get on the internet you're turning them into people who sound like
they are incapable of being members on any meaningful level.  No school?  No Jobs?  No library?  No cell phone? $1.00 for coffee and internet is a bridge too far?
How do they get to meetings?  Buy uniforms?  Pay bills?  Pay their CAP fees?  Take cadets tests?  Or for that matter, take the umpteen other tests necessary
to have a meaningful CAP career?

If they are missing meetings for gas money, they need to be focused elsewhere, and ES isn't the place to be spending their time.  Come back when life stabilizes.
That or have the Maserati dude pick them up on the way to the meeting, bring his diamond encrusted cell phone, turn on the hot spot and
use unit computers to take the tests.

First aid training is another example; we're engaged in getting our people to complete the required curriculum via free online course modules, plus a day of hands-on training at the unit to meet the required standard. Some folks just cant afford the fees of the "professional volunteer" instructors... I think you have the right of it when you hold to that stated standard. Despite hyperbole about setting bones, etc.

This isn't going to meet the spec unless it's certified by an outside agency, and if they are coming out, then you don't need the online module,
and they are likely going to charge you almost as much for that time as the whole class.

Online training, per the regs, does not meet the spec, good intentions not withstanding.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 02:34:22 AM »

Ideally, I would love for everyone to do this online.  Makes my job that much easier.  I'd rather not spend extra Saturdays away from my kids (and job, because I do work weekends)  It's just not happening is my point.  I have people who need it who cite a wide variety of reasons why they can't. 

OK, all the other stuff notwithstanding, if you can't get people motivated to take a couple of short tests online vs. them blowing their day in-person as
well, they aren't going to be motivated to the 100 other things, both online and practical, that it takes to be involved in ES. 

Sometimes people just aren't interested and the excuses are their way of telling you that.  There's the water, if you can't be bothered, don't tell me you are thirsty.

I'm all for greasing the wheels, but in this case, you'd be better off, and could accomplish your mission by putting them in front of a CAP laptop
and having them hammer it until it's done, rather then going through the mashinations of trying to get CAP to approve teaching something CAP doesn't want to be in the business of teaching.

In fact, why isn't that your first choice?
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etodd
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2017, 04:35:49 PM »

 This thread got me wondering what was in those courses. I passed 100, 200 and 700 about a year ago. Took the courses online. But now a year later remember virtually none of it. Guess I should go back and review some of the materials. It's one of those, use it or lose it, things.  The main thing I remember that stood out was for me to be sure and check in at an event, do what I'm told to do, and then be sure to check out and return any materials used. LOL
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2017, 04:40:14 PM »

The main thing I remember that stood out was for me to be sure and check in at an event, do what I'm told to do, and then be sure to check out and return any materials used.

That, and obey those above and only those above you, and direct those assigned to you and only those assigned to you.

That's really the core of the message, the rest is fluff and administrivia.
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UWONGO2
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Posts: 80

« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 05:38:50 PM »

CAPNHQ & FEMA just approved and completed a trial run of ICS 300 and ICS 400 being taught by CAP instructors. There is a test for each in LMS (although the links are there, I don't think you can take the test until the instructor approves you).

When everything is said and done, you get a certificate of completion signed by the national commander. If the argument here is that CAP can't teach FEMA classes, it appears FEMA and CAP have said it's OK.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 06:00:55 PM »

If the argument here is that CAP can't teach FEMA classes, it appears FEMA and CAP have said it's OK.

No one said "can't" - SARDOC says "Can and should", I say "can and don't need to".

300-400 is a different animal from 1-2-7 as they are multi-day in-residence courses.  The availability and time commitment
needed (since many take place during the week) is a legitimate gating factor for many people who need it.  With that said,
any "all CAP only" classes will miss the point and be of dubious value, since we don't have the internal expertise in many
of the subjects covered any more then most EM agencies know anything about air operations.

The most effective classes have multi-agency participation.  Hopefully there will be an emphasis on that, however CAP's
storied history in these areas would tend to indicate it'll be another weekend checkbox and defeat its own purpose.
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capsafety
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2017, 06:10:17 PM »

oops
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James L. Shaw Jr.
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capsafety
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2017, 06:12:03 PM »

CAPNHQ & FEMA just approved and completed a trial run of ICS 300 and ICS 400 being taught by CAP instructors. There is a test for each in LMS (although the links are there, I don't think you can take the test until the instructor approves you).

When everything is said and done, you get a certificate of completion signed by the national commander. If the argument here is that CAP can't teach FEMA classes, it appears FEMA and CAP have said it's OK.

I think that is a good idea that will allow folks the opportunity to complete them. I also really enjoy the interaction with the students if I am teaching the class. That to me is one of the most important parts of the class....student and instructor interaction. It is nice that they have moved into the LMS system though and will be a great benefit to anyone with limited access.
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James L. Shaw Jr.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2017, 07:11:54 PM »

I think that is a good idea that will allow folks the opportunity to complete them. I also really enjoy the interaction with the students if I am teaching the class. That to me is one of the most important parts of the class....student and instructor interaction. It is nice that they have moved into the LMS system though and will be a great benefit to anyone with limited access.

Waitaminute!  You don't face the screen and read the slides in a barely audible monotone voice?

Doesn't meet the CAP spec.
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CAPDCCMOM
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 07:18:54 PM »

CAP, the home of Death by PowerPoint
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2017, 11:51:01 PM »

UWONGO,

The OP is asking, and the thread of this was that CAP is NOT certifying IS-100, IS-200, and IS-700 if taught by CAP members. The issue were not certifying IS-300 or IS-400.

Like Eclipse points out, these are very different.
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etodd
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2017, 11:52:18 PM »

CAP, the home of Death by PowerPoint

I always enjoy them because "Im THAT guy" who sits in the back and interrupts every slide with a story or question to get conversation going. Problem is that the instructor prepares a 1 hour slide show to fill a 1 hour slot. So add me in the mix and he only gets halfway thru .... but no one falls asleep.
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2017, 12:15:40 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 12:18:42 AM »

etodd, that sounds to me like the little kid that when the teacher is giving a lesson puts his hand in the path of the projector light. Or other things.

 ???

I was giving a class last Friday and had two boys repeatedly jumping up on cushions. Another was rubbing his hand on the cushions to make a fart-like sound... And when I sat them at a table one of them started making faces at me every time I turned my back!

 ;D
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SARDOC
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2017, 12:35:05 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

I'm interested as a noted earlier in this
CAPNHQ & FEMA just approved and completed a trial run of ICS 300 and ICS 400 being taught by CAP instructors. There is a test for each in LMS (although the links are there, I don't think you can take the test until the instructor approves you).

When everything is said and done, you get a certificate of completion signed by the national commander. If the argument here is that CAP can't teach FEMA classes, it appears FEMA and CAP have said it's OK.
CAP has said okay, says so on the website and is adopted by reference in 60-3.  What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard. 
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2017, 12:38:18 AM »

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
SARDOC
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 12:38:53 AM »

This thread got me wondering what was in those courses. I passed 100, 200 and 700 about a year ago. Took the courses online. But now a year later remember virtually none of it. Guess I should go back and review some of the materials. It's one of those, use it or lose it, things.  The main thing I remember that stood out was for me to be sure and check in at an event, do what I'm told to do, and then be sure to check out and return any materials used. LOL

Good for you, review is always recommended.  Like anything.   If you intend on attending 300/400 in the future...those tests have questions that come from some of the prerequisite classes.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 12:45:24 AM »

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.

No, I agree.  It's really important to have 300/400 classes open to the public.  I list mine as open to the public on the state website.  I've had EMS/Fire/Police/FBI/Hospitals/Utility company/SAR (Not CAP) etc..all come to the class.  It's supposed to be that way.  As far as I know, My coinstructor and I are the only ones in the state that teach it on weekends, making it popular among volunteer types who can't always take off from work to attend a class.  On occassion, We've had to limit it because of our classroom size.  First Come First serve.  I announce it to CAP folks before the state makes the class announcement, so that I can make sure some of our people can get in the class before the quota is full. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2017, 12:47:10 AM »

What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard.

Why is that important?

If you're qualified and authorized to teach the classes, why is it important that it says CAP on the cert?
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2017, 08:40:40 AM »

I read CAPR 60-3 and the NIMS page in the CAPMembers.com website and couldn't find anything saying that CAP will issue a certificate of completion for any of the NIMS/ICS courses.

If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it?

Because you CAN teach the class. But in order for a member to get a certificate for IS-100, 200, 700, or 800, the member MUST take the online test, which is separate from the training (you can do one without the other).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2017, 08:45:28 AM »

Wow. A nuance we all missed.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2017, 10:16:40 PM »

What I'm being told is that I can't use the "Civil Air Patrol" name in issuing the Piece of paper that says the student passed a class taught to the FEMA standard for these classes as required by the FEMA standard.

Why is that important?

If you're qualified and authorized to teach the classes, why is it important that it says CAP on the cert?

The Directive for the classes to be taught says that the Agency hosting the class provide a certificate to the student.  This is the student's documentation that they completed the training.  The certificate has the Agency Name, When, Where, Course (Standard), Signature, etc.

If FEMA wants to validate the authenticity of the Certificate they can reach out to the correct agency for validation.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2017, 10:34:28 PM »

I read CAPR 60-3 and the NIMS page in the CAPMembers.com website and couldn't find anything saying that CAP will issue a certificate of completion for any of the NIMS/ICS courses.

If it's the intent that CAP not teach this class...Why create a standard for who can be a CAP instructor for it?

Because you CAN teach the class. But in order for a member to get a certificate for IS-100, 200, 700, or 800, the member MUST take the online test, which is separate from the training (you can do one without the other).

That is something that I had not focused on either.  Under my state instructions for hosting the class, I have a requirement to be able to provide a paper test available at the site.   The Instructor expectations outlined as a Sponsored Instructor don't jive with the instructions for these courses in particular.

It Looks like for test security reasons FEMA doesn't include a paper test for these courses in the materials.  I know they don't take the mail in rosters anymore.  It looks like my state instructor handbook needs to be changed and that FEMA may actually require the online test. I'm just not sure how to reconcile between them.

It looks like I need to punt this back again to my state program manager. 

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SARDOC
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2017, 10:37:01 PM »

And just a plug to the CAPTALK Community...this is why we have discussions like this.  It's not supposed to be mob rule, but a problem solving working group.  Thanks for your help.

I'll try to post a resolution if I can ever get one.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2017, 10:47:40 PM »

That is something that I had not focused on either.  Under my state instructions for hosting the class, I have a requirement to be able to provide a paper test available at the site.   The Instructor expectations outlined as a Sponsored Instructor don't jive with the instructions for these courses in particular.

It Looks like for test security reasons FEMA doesn't include a paper test for these courses in the materials.  I know they don't take the mail in rosters anymore.  It looks like my state instructor handbook needs to be changed and that FEMA may actually require the online test. I'm just not sure how to reconcile between them.

It looks like I need to punt this back again to my state program manager.

I think that from a CAP perspective you are focusing way too much on being able to certify participation yourself.

Your issues with other agencies, notwithstanding if you have the ability to teach the class, teach it, and then CAP members
can take the test online.

Heck, >I< anyone can teach the class, with FEMA providing it's own verification of compliance.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2017, 11:05:02 PM »

I think that from a CAP perspective you are focusing way too much on being able to certify participation yourself.

Your issues with other agencies, notwithstanding if you have the ability to teach the class, teach it, and then CAP members
can take the test online.

Heck, >I< anyone can teach the class, with FEMA providing it's own verification of compliance.

I was trying to do that.  That was the expectation provided through my state instructor expectations guide and the direct feedback from my state agency.

So the disconnect is there and mea culpa.  I was making strides towards meeting the state expectations as one of their sponsored instructors and not identifying that the state's criteria can't be applied to these courses.  It's never been caught probably because most agencies are using the FEMA option.

That's why above I was trying to say it was my preference to use the FEMA option but I've had multiple requests do this and there is conflicting guidance depending on which reference you read.
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Jaison009
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« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 11:19:31 PM »

1000% agree on the collaboration and cooperation of multiple agencies in 300/400 and your comment on in-house instruction Spaceman. I have had this same conversation numerous times about ICS training with both my roles in CAP and my real job in ARC.

I'm only interested in CAP teaching 300 and 400 if we can open it to, and issue certificates to, surrounding agency personnel.

FEMA does require 300 and 400 to be in residence courses and they are very specific about the agencies they let teach it.  I'm sanctioned by my state to teach all of this NIMS Series.   For the state approved 300/400 class they issue the certificates.  They don't issue certificates for the 100,200, 700, 800 classes because FEMA specifically authorizes local entities to issue certificates.

None of that really addresses my concern.

A huge benefit of 300 and 400 is rubbing shoulders with and benefiting with the shared experiences of other agencies. I'm fine with CAP teaching it, but if we keep it in house only we will just end up producing the same type of people and won't really grow as an organization.
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CAPLTC
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Unit: MER

« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2017, 08:35:15 PM »

Lacking a cadre of instructors, minus those of us who came to CAP with the ability to teach these, I do not see how CAP could self-certify.
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