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April 27, 2017, 01:19:49 AM
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
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Author Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer  (Read 3960 times)
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2017, 10:37:40 AM »

Eh, I'm a 27 year old Major, was approved for it at 26. I've got former cadets on AD AF duty as Captains, doesn't really seem that far fetched, or out of bounds.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2017, 10:29:26 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
The Flight Officer structure exists to prevent CAP from have sub-21 year old Lts and Capts.

Which apparently isn't a hard-fast issue for the US military, so why is it for CAP?

http://hanfordsentinel.com/kingsburg_recorder/news/kingsburg-student-completes-officer-candidate-school/article_7a2ec666-bae2-5cf5-a413-ed3ab53aeb8a.html



With a relevent degree, you can join the officer program with the USAF at 18:
https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/process/officer

19 for Army OCS: http://www.goarmy.com/ocs.html

Frankly, the numbers who would be affected in CAP would be slightly higher, but not too much so, then the above edge cases.

You can't commission until you have the degree though. So unless the person managed to complete college prior to being 19, they'll like be around 21-23. Our average OCS age was around 24 if I was to ballpark that. I'd say half had masters degrees.

CAP is a pretty big different in that realm. The training program for officers in CAP is fairly informal and minimal, even when promoting through the ranks through the required training courses. You can virtually satisfy going from SMWOG to Captain with roughly a week's worth of classroom learning, online quizzes, time in grade, and minimal mentoring.


Eh, I'm a 27 year old Major, was approved for it at 26. I've got former cadets on AD AF duty as Captains, doesn't really seem that far fetched, or out of bounds.

No disrespect intended, Sir, but you don't see too many military O-4s below the age of 30. CAP is always unique in that regard, as some cadets can literally transition to senior member and be a Captain by age 21. You don't see that in the modern military, especially when we're seeing the maturity of legal aged adults shifting into the mid-to-late 20s nowadays.


I think, overall in CAP, you have a lot of people with very little experience in some pretty important positions where they don't receive that mentoring that would really benefit their progression, and a lot of them don't have any prior CAP or military experience, nor have they held any level of command role in an organization before (or civilian equivalent).

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.
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jeders
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« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2017, 09:41:00 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2017, 11:19:35 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I've known 2 that became commanders shortly after turning 21. Both were very successful. While they might not have a 3 page resume, they did have almost a decade of CAP experience that they put to good use.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2017, 12:42:48 PM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I've known 2 that became commanders shortly after turning 21. Both were very successful. While they might not have a 3 page resume, they did have almost a decade of CAP experience that they put to good use.


High speed, low drag, quick learners exist, no argument there.
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MHC5096
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« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2017, 02:06:49 PM »

I was a 21 year old Squadron Commander.  ;D
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M. H. Crary, Lieutenant Colonel, CAP

CAP - Lt Col (1983-Present) | USNR - QM2 (1989-1995) | VTANG - MSgt (1995-2009) | USAFR - MSgt (2009-2011) | CGAUX - BA/ADSO/FSO (2011-Present)
TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2017, 04:14:09 PM »

I stand by it.

And a SMWOG should especially not be a squadron commander.

I understand that there may be extreme exceptions, but for the most part, let's be honest: there are a number of CAP roles that have people in them with very little training. Sure, maybe they can train in that role and learn through practical experience. As I always ask, how many of us seniors had a formal indoctrination into CAP versus those who had to learn it on their own? I'd say a good percentage. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's detrimental, but there could be a number of issues that come with that: noncompliance with numerous regulations due to lack of knowledge, inability to manage an effective program, incorrect teaching of subject matter, etc. Yes, there are instances of even those with experience having those very same issues, but the intent of having a training program is to reduce inexperience at higher levels as the training relates. You are more likely, per chance, to have promote from SMWOG to Second Lieutenant within 6 months of joining CAP, become squadron commander, be instated as a First Lieutenant, and see troublesome issues than a SMWOG working his/her way up to Captain over time and go through the proper training pipeline, gain the experience, and become squadron commander with much lesser issues.

The fact of it is some units exist solely because someone "stepped up" when there was nobody else who would take on the role. That unit may succeed quite well, but likeliness would say they're more likely to have some problems along the way if that person is low in experience, especially if this person is younger and does not have much life experience.

A 21-year old West Point graduate who participated in JROTC prior and commissions to become a Second Lieutenant is not going to be a Company Commander in an infantry battalion. They do not have the experience to take on that responsibility.

CAP typically says we do not have the luxury of going through a formal, extensive officer training program. It is what it is. But when you have the ability to select those command-level individuals, it needs to be done with great vetting. Often, it seems to fall on someone who was not expecting it to come up. "Want to be squadron commander?" "Not really." "Well, if nobody else does it, your unit has to close or become a flight." "Okay, fine, I'll do it." It's not a guaranteed failure. But they should be scrutinized and greatly watched over by their superior to be sure it doesn't fall apart. If they succeed, great. But keep an eye out.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2017, 04:59:02 PM »

I stand by it.

And a SMWOG should especially not be a squadron commander.

I understand that there may be extreme exceptions, but for the most part, let's be honest: there are a number of CAP roles that have people in them with very little training. Sure, maybe they can train in that role and learn through practical experience. As I always ask, how many of us seniors had a formal indoctrination into CAP versus those who had to learn it on their own? I'd say a good percentage. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's detrimental, but there could be a number of issues that come with that: noncompliance with numerous regulations due to lack of knowledge, inability to manage an effective program, incorrect teaching of subject matter, etc. Yes, there are instances of even those with experience having those very same issues, but the intent of having a training program is to reduce inexperience at higher levels as the training relates. You are more likely, per chance, to have promote from SMWOG to Second Lieutenant within 6 months of joining CAP, become squadron commander, be instated as a First Lieutenant, and see troublesome issues than a SMWOG working his/her way up to Captain over time and go through the proper training pipeline, gain the experience, and become squadron commander with much lesser issues.

The fact of it is some units exist solely because someone "stepped up" when there was nobody else who would take on the role. That unit may succeed quite well, but likeliness would say they're more likely to have some problems along the way if that person is low in experience, especially if this person is younger and does not have much life experience.

A 21-year old West Point graduate who participated in JROTC prior and commissions to become a Second Lieutenant is not going to be a Company Commander in an infantry battalion. They do not have the experience to take on that responsibility.

CAP typically says we do not have the luxury of going through a formal, extensive officer training program. It is what it is. But when you have the ability to select those command-level individuals, it needs to be done with great vetting. Often, it seems to fall on someone who was not expecting it to come up. "Want to be squadron commander?" "Not really." "Well, if nobody else does it, your unit has to close or become a flight." "Okay, fine, I'll do it." It's not a guaranteed failure. But they should be scrutinized and greatly watched over by their superior to be sure it doesn't fall apart. If they succeed, great. But keep an eye out.

Why? Nothing in any manual, regulation or pamphlet says that a SM is required to take a grade, any grade. I've known a number of SMWOG that served in key positions, including command, and their lack of doodads on their sleeves or shoulders did not prevent them from being productive and competent members.

The extreme cases are the ones where a commander is chosen by being voluntold or "because he is there". I've been a member of a couple of wings in 2 different Regions. I've never seen command of any unit or activity given to someone because he was the only one in the room at the time.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
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PHall
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Posts: 5,605

« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2017, 09:29:40 PM »

SkyHornet, you don't see any 27 year old Majors in "the real military" because you typically pin on Major about the same time you have about 10 years of commissioned service. Special commissions for Doctors and Lawyers are on a different track.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2017, 02:41:27 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I was a Squadron Commander at 20, turning 21 about 6 weeks later. But, I'd been cadet commander of two squadrons, Chairman of a large and active Wing CAC, had served on Wing Staff as a CPO and had been a Group CPO. In other words, while still a cadet officer, i was doing a lot of Warrant Officer-like things that my fellow cadets were not. (I went from C/LtCol to WO a few days before I took over the Squadron).

The Squadron had some particular needs and my skill set matched. The Group Commander asked me to take over and I did. I had to do an almost total house cleaning of seniors immediately but recruited done great replacements.

I left it a going concern and it's still there, 42 years later (although I haven't been back in at least 35 years).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 02:44:44 AM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
 


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