Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 23, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All Print
Author Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer  (Read 5477 times)
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2017, 07:51:09 AM »

[quote author=Ned link=topic=21800.msg399628#msg399628 date=1487180564

 

We've tried that a couple times, of course.  Both the Advanced Cadet Transition(ACT)  and the Senior Transition Program (STP) were put in place with basically the same good intentions, and both failed for lack of participation.  Even when the former cadets in the programs could test for the Spaatz, remained eligible for scholarships, IACE, and other NCSAs.  The programs failed mostly because there is simply no significant upside to cadets to make the transition, and some significant downsides (lack of ability to participate as higher-level staff at encampments, region and national CACs, etc..)



We've certainly had the discussion about whether to end the cadet program at less than the 21 years of age limit put in place by Spaatz, Curry, and LaGuardia many times here on CT.  But it tends to bog down when we try to figure out exactly what "problem" we are trying to solve by modifying the maximum age that has been in place for 75 years.

Ned Lee
[/quote]

I was an "ACT" participant myself for about three months. I had finished doing cadet things and was already moving into the senior world. As a 20-year old C/Lt Col I was pretty much a de facto senior anyway and had decided not to take the Spaatz Exan for what I believed at the time to be good reasons. So, ACT just made it official.

However, our upper age limit has not been as it is for the last 75 years. Also, Curry and La Guardia had nothing to do with setting the current upper age limit. In fact, Curry was gone from CAP before the first CAP cadets even joined with their age 18 upper age limit. La Guardia died 10 years before the age 21 limit was set. (Spaatz was Chairman of the Board when it was set, so he does get credit).

From 1942 to 1954, the upper age limit was 18. In 1954 it was raised to 20. The age 21 limit was set in 1957*, so we have had that for 60 years, not 75 years.

*(Before the current practice of 21st Birthday being the limit, at one time the limit was the first renewal date after the 21st birthday. I know a couple of people who were able to stretch that out to almost age 22).
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 113
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 05:04:16 PM »

For me is was 21 plus slightly more than 4 months (although the details tend to be lost in the mists of time). I always wondered how Chris was able to get her Spaatz. It was explained to me only as a "special program." It's good to have a few more details.
Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2017, 05:58:08 PM »

I for one am glad I could stay a cadet after 18. I joined at 16 and received my Mitchell a month after I turned 18. I stayed a cadet until I was 21+ (according to when NHQ says I became a SM, it was several months later when my cadet membership expired). During that time I progressed from C/WO to C/Lt Col, went on a special activity, was on cadet staff at an encampment, etc.
Same. Glad I stayed.



Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 04:50:29 PM »

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless.

I have helped quite a few young Flight Officers during the past two years as my unit is located next to a large university and the program has done absolutely nothing to help them. Their ranks are too confusing to everyone to understand or care about. In fact, a large population of our own organization still considers them to be cadets! Air Force personnel are also annoyed at our detachment from the proper Air Force ranks and insignia and I have dealt with quite a few servicemembers come to me looking for help on how to deal with "those people" in my unit. Even worse is that our own National Headquarters does not even bother to confirm the Flight Officer ranks in eServices or on the ID card! And to top it off, there are some required uniform items that Vanguard does not even sell because the Flight Officer ranks are so rare that it is not worth it for them to stock the materials. (Random tangent: SMWOG are NOT authorized to wear the Mess Dress uniform, but Flight Officers can. Who, as a Flight Officer, has a Mess Dress before 21 years old, and why can a teenager get one but an adult, who may have been a loyal member for years, is barred from wearing one but not any other Air Force uniform?)

Hell, Flight Officers used to be the only ranks where you could can get DEMOTED because of your age. (This was not too long ago when it took 3 months to make Flight Officer.) If you were a Flight Officer and turned 21 but did not have the TIG for 2d Lt, you went back to being a SMWOG. One day you are above them in rank and uniform--along with being allowed to wearing the Mess Dress--but the next morning after your birthday you required strip your uniform, lose your salutes, and give up your Mess Dress for a while. (This has happened twice at my unit, much to frustration of the Flight Officers.) This is an example of how asinine and arbitrary the Flight Officer ranks have become and what "fixes" are being added to try and keep it relevant. This is a waste of time and resources while adding more useless regulations to fill a bloated organization. Flight Officers are also the only ranks where you will be unable to physically advance to the top of the program if you joined day one of eligibility: the new TIG between ranks makes it so a day one 18 year old WILL NOT have enough TIG to reach SFO before aging out. Why do we have a program that discriminates based on age?

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless. They have no value in our organization and waste everyone's time and money. They are a solution to a non-existent problem within CAP.

Do not replace the Flight Officer ranks, just remove them. Any senior member who joins before the age of 21 is merely a SMWOG. Done. Easy. This way you have to sit back and learn more of the organization while growing up as a new adult and observe how things are run. Those years as a new SMWOG will allow you avoid any rank drama or headache while giving you an opportunity to work on professional development and qualifications until you are ready for the officer ranks. Those years will also allow new members to grow in maturity and understanding of our senior program before assuming any command.

Continue to allow cadets to stay until 21. Continue to allow seniors to join at 18. Hell, you could make that in-between transition people are talking about where you can do both cadet and senior PD to entice new converts, if desired. However, at the end of the day, we need to remove the Flight Officer ranks in their entirety. Let us help make our organization run more smoothly, logically, and professionally. Remove the Flight Officer ranks.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 04:54:47 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 05:06:26 PM »

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

How, exactly?  The average member doesn't understand them now, and the progression from "enlisted" to officer doesn't generally go
from E4 to 2d Lt without some prior service, academy, or similar.

The "S/Airmen" wouldn't be subordinate to the few prior-service NCOs CAP has, but that would be the high-level insinuation.

This just takes one incomprehensible / disconnected grade and trades it for a different one, adding the hassle of sewing
sleeve insignia and ruining shirts as a value-add.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 05:12:31 PM »

Of course this whole topic of a cadet becoming a Flight Officer may soon be pointless. Looking at the new CAPR35-5 (22112016) it appears that there my be an error in the Flight Officer program Time-in-Grade requirements or CAP may already be attempting to phase out the Flight Officer program.  If one joins on their 18th Birthday (The earliest age that one can be an FO) there are only 36 months to their 21 birthday (The age that they age out and become regular CAP Officers).
CAPR 35-5, 7.4.2. Requirements for Specific Grades (Figure 10) outlines that it will take 54 months of Time-In Grade (6mths from SM to FO, 18mths from FO to TFO, 30mths from TSO to SFO = 54mths), an improbability given the 36 month age out.
Question: Is it an error or is the Flight Officer program being phased out?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 07:22:45 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2017, 05:32:21 PM »

Correct for new members, but dark-siders could make the advanced FO grades.

At the end of the day, though, it's a lot of noise for something eServices inexplicable still doesn't track,
VG doesn't make some needed insignia, serves very little ultimate purpose, and affects very few members.

IMHO, having under 21 year old seniors stay as SMWG, while allowing them to progress in PD, pending
turning 21 would seem to be just as good a solution.

That or have all adult members start as FOs, which would be just as viable,
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2017, 06:25:10 PM »

Your attempting to make too great a jump in logic about my post, it's largely a tongue in cheek reply. The "average" member understands little about most military topics to include recognizing the Airman ranks so I agree with you there. But I will argue that even fewer people know what a Flight Officer is. When I was an FO/TFO at my old CAP unit at Columbus AFB, the Air Force personnel often thought me to be a Coast Guard member and when I attended SLS & CLC few senior members know what I was even at that level of training. As for the Airman to Officer jump I'm a big supporter of the idea that everyone should pass the CAP Officer Basic Course before being made an Officer. But I'm not going to fight about any of it. I'm trying to decide if I want the higher pay as a CAP Major or the better career opportunities of being an NCO.

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

How, exactly?  The average member doesn't understand them now, and the progression from "enlisted" to officer doesn't generally go
from E4 to 2d Lt without some prior service, academy, or similar.

The "S/Airmen" wouldn't be subordinate to the few prior-service NCOs CAP has, but that would be the high-level insinuation.

This just takes one incomprehensible / disconnected grade and trades it for a different one, adding the hassle of sewing
sleeve insignia and ruining shirts as a value-add.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:51:48 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2017, 06:37:18 PM »

C/SSGT RODRIGUEZ,

My advice to you would be to try to earn your Mitchell Award which has a few perks such as an advance enlistment in the Air Force and just for the bragging rights of saying you were a Cadet (Trust me though the lens of time your Cadet service will become cherished). Then if you still have time become a Flight Officer, if for no other reason than to amuse yourself at all the confused looks your going to get when you tell people that your a Flight Officer. :-)

I recently turned 18 and would like to switch from being a cadet to a FO.
What is required to do so? Testing, applications, etc.
Thank you for any help and information.
Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2017, 07:59:12 PM »

Eclipse,
What is the function of pay grades within the Civil Air Patrol when we don't get paid?
The paygrade normally just shows ones level of training. The highest trained is normally in charge but not always, I've been in units where 1Lt's have out ranked LtCol's. Another function of grades like the Flight Officer is that it allows new(er) young adult members to feel as if they are accomplishing something so they are less likely to feel as if they are wasting their time. It would be hard for a person to go to CAP meetings month after month, year after year, while completing Level upon Level of training just to have all the new members who joined after them promote, while they have nothing to show for it. So enter the Flight Officer grades, you can tell their level of training by the grade and they feel as if they are being rewarded for all the effort they are putting in. That is the ultimate purpose, it does not matter if eservices tracks it or not.

Correct for new members, but dark-siders could make the advanced FO grades.

At the end of the day, though, it's a lot of noise for something eServices inexplicable still doesn't track,
VG doesn't make some needed insignia, serves very little ultimate purpose, and affects very few members.

IMHO, having under 21 year old seniors stay as SMWG, while allowing them to progress in PD, pending
turning 21 would seem to be just as good a solution.

That or have all adult members start as FOs, which would be just as viable,
Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2017, 01:45:39 AM »

Current Flight Officer, decided to chime in

I jumped to FO mainly because I wasn't progressing in the Cadet Program, thus decided I was doing my squadron a disservice by remaining a cadet. I felt I was setting a poor example to the cadet corps of Nellis Composite by not making even PROGRESS towards my next rank. I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Between March and July I thought long and hard and just decided my time was up, I felt I no longer needed to be a cadet. I turned in my papers in July my very last week before leaving Nevada to take part in AmeriCorps NCCC - FEMA Corps. In July I reported to Baltimore for training and then around August deployed with FEMA Region 6 IMAT Team 2 to the Baton Rouge JFO where I worked as an IMAT Planner in Resources.

My reasons for becoming an FO are probably very much personal, but none-the-less, that's why I decided to turn FO from a cadet.

Oh and also, yes it is amusing to see the looks as I try explaining FO lol, I find myself constantly looking at the 35-2 Membership Reg, it seems like a very...."convoluted" system for the lack of a better word. I find myself confused a lot and unsure if I can even progress in the senior program. But I do plan on attending an SLS class in March. I'm 20, I'll make TFO right before my 21st birthday, TFO makes Senior Member 1st. Lt.

Also...in response to why use pay grades in CAP: it's useful to use E-x or O-x when talking to other branches. When I was invited to talk about CAP and give a recruiting presentation to my Naval JROTC Battalion in high school I was a C/CMSgt I said I was an E-9, which is equivalent to a Chief Petty Officer. None of my fellow Naval Cadets (because I was a platoon commander, and was in charge of a period) would know USAF so I used pay grades.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:52:45 AM by Shieldel » Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,935
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2017, 04:26:22 AM »

Quote
I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Could you explained sustained for us? I've been around CAP for a while, and have never heard this before.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2017, 12:17:17 PM »

Quote
I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Could you explained sustained for us? I've been around CAP for a while, and have never heard this before.

Essentially I was promoted as a Second Lieutenant twice. There was the first time when I got my Mitchell, and then when you promote again, there's a "dead rank". At Chief you start having to spend 4 months in every rank as every rank after chief has that dead rank, or "xx sustained"

Edited for grammar
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:20:56 PM by Shieldel » Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program, each officer rank has a "sustained" or "dead rank". Each officer rank has a "sustained" after the first one. IE exactly how I talked. Achievements 10 & 11 are 1st Lt. Cadet Captain and Cadet Major are very..."unique" in the sense you spend 6 months in each rank.

You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.
Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2017, 01:06:30 PM »

Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program,


Whooooooo boy.


Where's the popcorn?
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2017, 01:24:44 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program, each officer rank has a "sustained" or "dead rank". Each officer rank has a "sustained" after the first one. IE exactly how I talked. Achievements 10 & 11 are 1st Lt. Cadet Captain and Cadet Major are very..."unique" in the sense you spend 6 months in each rank.

You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.

You're kidding, right? Take a look at the sig line of the highly experienced officer that you just insulted. See that little badge on the right? That's the CP badge. Take cution with you tone. Eclipse and I may not see eye to eye on some things, but he is an experienced officer that has forgotten more about the CP than we know combined.

Now to the issue, cite a regulatory source for this term.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2017, 01:32:26 PM »

...you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program,



You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.

When a cadet is "sustained" in grade, it means he was eligible for promotion and that promotion is being denied.

See CAPR 52-16, Page 16:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"e. Sustaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders may sustain a promotion-eligible cadet in grade if
the cadetís performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility
commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or
deputy commander) will offer constructive feed-back to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills.
The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days"


It is not, in any way, related to the achievements which do not have an accompanying promotion. In those cases,
cadets are neither "sustained" nor "retained", there is simply no promotion attached to those achievements.

I don't even know the first thing about regs in general,

Without putting too fine a point on it, as a new FO, you are clearly in "learning mode" - we are all wrong or off-base on occasion, but when
people with more experience then you provide corrections, you should at least take the time to make sure you can substantiate your
argument before making statements which impugn the ability of the person trying to help you.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2017, 01:42:20 PM »

This new and nicer Eclipse...what this is, I don't even...
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,935
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2017, 01:43:52 PM »

PM sent. Let the public pillorying end.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.443 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me