Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 23, 2017, 01:25:17 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All] Print
Author Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer  (Read 5478 times)
Mrodriguez
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: NE-094

« on: January 25, 2017, 12:42:46 AM »

I recently turned 18 and would like to switch from being a cadet to a FO.
What is required to do so? Testing, applications, etc.
Thank you for any help and information.
Logged
SM. RODRIGUEZ
DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2017, 12:44:45 AM »

If you've already got your mitchell you shouldn't have any testing.  Just fingerprints, the CPPT, filling out the forms to transfer to senior.
Logged
Mrodriguez
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: NE-094

« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2017, 12:47:00 AM »

I haven't received my Mitchell yet. I recently joined the unit I am with and I am only a C/SSgt currently.
Logged
SM. RODRIGUEZ
Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2017, 01:13:46 AM »

Going SM as a C/SSgt is pretty much the same as a new SM joining. You'll have to go through Lvl I, CPPT, all the forms and fingerprints, as DJ mentioned above. You'll also have to hold SMWOG for the same amount of time as a new member, as compared with a Mitchell+ cadet transferring where they get 2ndLt, 1stLt, or Capt automatically.

Sent from my LG-V521 using Tapatalk

Logged
1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
Mrodriguez
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: NE-094

« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2017, 01:17:59 AM »

Thank you for the quick response. How long would I be a SMWOG before being eligible to become a FO?
Logged
SM. RODRIGUEZ
Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2017, 01:18:09 AM »

Or in the case of FOs,  an automatic FO, TFO, or SFO.

Sent from my LG-V521 using Tapatalk

Logged
1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2017, 01:18:42 AM »

Not going to talk you out of going senior, but do keep in mind that once you go you can't go back.  So if earning the mitchell or higher is something you would be interested in doing eventually, now's the time to do it.
Logged
Levi Lockling
Seasoned Member

Posts: 319
Unit: AZ-085

« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2017, 01:19:39 AM »

6 months, if I recall correctly. Which may not seem like a long time, but TIG as FO only counts towards TIG for 2ndLt, as TIG for TFO only counts towards TIG for 1stLt,  etc. It's a weird setup, honestly.

Sent from my LG-V521 using Tapatalk

Logged
1stLt Levi H. Lockling
SrA, USAF, 1A851J
Charlie flight, NBB 2013
Mrodriguez
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: NE-094

« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2017, 01:23:28 AM »

Thank you all again the information you've provided is very helpful.
Logged
SM. RODRIGUEZ
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,281
Unit: Classified

« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 03:19:35 AM »

He should be doing CPPT anyway since he turned 18 regardless if a cadet or senior.
Logged
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,755
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 05:00:47 AM »

Check out CAPR 35-5 and 50-17.
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
jhighman
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: GLR-OH-085

« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 08:53:47 AM »

Also check CAPR 39-2, 3.2.5 which specifically addresses the process for cadets transferring to active senior status.

As mentioned before, this is a one way trip so make sure that you have done as much of the cadet program as you wish or are able before starting Down this road. If you're 18 and don't have your orientation flights completed, you won't be able to complete the Mitchell award.

Do your due diligence and consider what you really want to accomplish before making a decision. You get your entire adult life to be a senior but only a fleeting moment to be a cadet
Logged
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,975

« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 10:20:54 AM »

Do your due diligence and consider what you really want to accomplish before making a decision. You get your entire adult life to be a senior but only a fleeting moment to be a cadet

What he said, times 1000.

Quote
If you're 18 and don't have your orientation flights completed, you won't be able to complete the Mitchell award.

Wait...what?! Completion of orientation flights has absolutely nothing to do with the Mitchell Award.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 12:53:35 PM »


Quote
If you're 18 and don't have your orientation flights completed, you won't be able to complete the Mitchell award.

Wait...what?! Completion of orientation flights has absolutely nothing to do with the Mitchell Award.


Yea, what's up with that?
Logged
DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 12:57:59 PM »

Maybe they're thinking encampment rather than O-Flight
Logged
jhighman
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: GLR-OH-085

« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 11:51:35 PM »

Sorry about that. I was victim of WIWAC thinking there. I confused the CAPP 52-7 prohibition of 18 or older from participating in orientation flights.
Logged
Shawn W.
Member

Posts: 72

« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 01:59:55 AM »

Any particular reason you want to change over and not stay as a Cadet?

I've know a few members who have gone into the FO grades from being a cadet, only to get lost in the program because the squadrons they were in didn't know what to do with them.

My usual advice to any Cadet in a similiar situation, is to stay a cadet until you hit 21.

Just my humble opinion.

Good luck.
Logged
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 03:56:19 AM »

If you switch now, you've got to complete some things and will be rank deficient for at least six months. If you stay as a cadet, you can boost your way closer to Mitchell in those same 6 months. Add encampment and you've got it in the bag. Then when you turn senior, you're a FO right away and will have a Mitchell. By then, you might even rethink it, as your role and responsibilities will be different and special activities might beckon.

Your call, of course. Thank you for thinking it through as you decide how best for you to serve.
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 169

« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 09:52:38 AM »

Has anyone had an older cadet attend their first encampment as an 18+ year old?  Any issues with it?
Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 10:21:07 AM »

I think he wants to be a senior, because he maybe thinking, he can be in charge of the same cadet leaders. Think he is one of those guy doesn't want to accept orders from younger cadets.
  My advice is to stay as cadet and work hard to get your Mitchell.  You will related better with cadets, where as if you turn senior member you will be in a place were cadets won't approach you because your status and some seniors won't respect you because your lack of experience and matured.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 661

« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2017, 10:25:06 AM »

Has anyone had an older cadet attend their first encampment as an 18+ year old?  Any issues with it?

I've had a couple of 18 year olds attend their first encampment.  Some had no issues others struggled with 14/15 year olds ordering them around.  The advice I give them all is to remember that while they may be more mature and an "adult" compared to their flight commander or flight sergeant, those cadets have more CAP experience and the best course of action would be for them to all work together.  The flight cc/sgt can benefit from the 18 yr old's maturity and the 18 yr old can benefit from the flight cs/sgt's CAP experience.
Logged
Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 117
Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2017, 01:26:00 PM »

I think he wants to be a senior, because he maybe thinking, he can be in charge of the same cadet leaders. Think he is one of those guy doesn't want to accept orders from younger cadets.
  My advice is to stay as cadet and work hard to get your Mitchell.  You will related better with cadets, where as if you turn senior member you will be in a place were cadets won't approach you because your status and some seniors won't respect you because your lack of experience and matured.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

My line of thought as well.  I have had reservations with allowing these SMs to be in direct supervision of cadets.  First, the age difference is not that great.  And while they may be a SM, and technically an adult, many times the maturity has not yet developed and end up with some borderline CPP issues.  Secondly, the experience.  They have not progressed far enough in the Cadet Program to gain the knowledge and have not started the PD for a SM. 
Logged
Toad
Spaatz Award 1168 - 1 June 1993
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 01:33:56 PM »

We've had 17 and 18 year old in flights as students to no real issues other then the
occasional humorous size disparity.

In those cases an extra eye is kept, some segregation of age is done during hygiene and
personal times, but I would say on the mean 18 year olds putting themselves in that position
have a goal of one kind or another and "get it".  Proper filtering by local CC's helps with this as well.

As to young FO's, or even young / new SM's for that matter, you pair them with an experienced TO and
things are fine, making sure attitude and vector adjustments are made immediately and properly when necessary.

My personal advice to the OP would be to consider long and hard about closing the cadet door - there are experiences
which are simply not open, nor imitable, once you cross the border, there's just no other way to state that.

The experience of an older, mature cadet in the right environment won't generally be as much fun, nor rewarding,
as being a very young senior member asked to do things you may not be prepared for (in CAP or real life).
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2017, 01:52:04 PM »

More importantly, assuming the cadet-turned-SM expects to work with cadets...time away/apart is really invaluable. 3-4 years, typically enough time to cycle through known cadets is a good time.
Logged
DJ Light Chop
Member

Posts: 75

« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2017, 02:52:15 PM »

If I were you I'd stay a cadet for a while.  I had never heard of the CAP until I was already in my 20s and didn't join until my work schedule allowed me to in my 30s.  As someone who was never a cadet, I have difficulty relating to what the cadets do and know very little about the cadet side.  Staying in a bit longer and working through the program to an officer position will allow you to learn more about that side of things and allow you to better relate to cadets when you do go over to senior.  The cadets will also know that you were once in their position and you'll be able to provide a lot more practical advice than a senior who has never what they are doing would ever be able to offer.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2017, 03:17:46 PM »

I think he wants to be a senior, because he maybe thinking, he can be in charge of the same cadet leaders. Think he is one of those guy doesn't want to accept orders from younger cadets.
  My advice is to stay as cadet and work hard to get your Mitchell.  You will related better with cadets, where as if you turn senior member you will be in a place were cadets won't approach you because your status and some seniors won't respect you because your lack of experience and matured.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Curious as to what the basis for this assumption is


Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2017, 03:26:47 PM »

I had a cadet once 17 Years old (high school, jrotc) and he wasn't a fan of been told what to do by another much younger cadet. As soon he turn 18, he stay as cadet until I move to another station. Eventually, I found out he move to become a SM and because his lack of maturity and power trip issues he was sort of force out by the dcc and leadership officer
  First hand experience.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2017, 03:28:19 PM »

Prefer to loose one member than several others because of the one.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2017, 04:35:06 PM »

I had a cadet once 17 Years old (high school, jrotc) and he wasn't a fan of been told what to do by another much younger cadet. As soon he turn 18, he stay as cadet until I move to another station. Eventually, I found out he move to become a SM and because his lack of maturity and power trip issues he was sort of force out by the CDC (FTFY) and leadership officer
  First hand experience.

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

I get that; past experience may give you an idea that this could be the same circumstance here. But I don't think C/ Rodriguez gave any indication of that in his post.
Logged
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2017, 01:34:03 AM »

Has anyone had an older cadet attend their first encampment as an 18+ year old?  Any issues with it?

I've seen it happen plenty of times. They toughed it out, got their tickets punched. No issues.
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2017, 06:18:01 PM »

More importantly, assuming the cadet-turned-SM expects to work with cadets...time away/apart is really invaluable. 3-4 years, typically enough time to cycle through known cadets is a good time.

I can't stress this enough. I see way too many former cadets who know people in the cadet program and work right alongside them. You'll always have those senior member parents whose kids are cadets in the program, but 18-year-old Jimmy who just became a Flight Officer shouldn't be a member of the Cadet Program staff when his little brother Johnny is in the flight.

But, I digress, that was not the intention of this post.
Logged
Jaison009
Seasoned Member

Posts: 263
Unit: SW-AR-040

« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2017, 12:14:20 AM »

What is your reasoning for wanting to make the switch if you do not mind me asking? If you do not want to share that is perfectly okay too. I stayed a cadet from 13 until 20 due to the fact that there was nothing I really wanted to do as a SM that I was not doing as a cadet. I also took the time to work towards my third diamond and finish ECI 13. I also decided that if I was going to be a SM, I was not going to work with CP to maintain a separation then college and my career provided a lengthy separation. As others have indicated there are sometimes challenges going over from a cadet especially during the years you will be serving as a FO/TFO/SFO. This is especially true if you have close and meaningful relationships with fellow cadets.

My personal advice is to always stay a cadet as long as you can, get your Mitchell or above unless there is something you would like to do that you cannot do as a cadet (serving as a mission aircrew member or adult GTL for example).

I recently turned 18 and would like to switch from being a cadet to a FO.
What is required to do so? Testing, applications, etc.
Thank you for any help and information.
Logged
Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,673

« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2017, 08:27:23 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.
Logged
Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 117
Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2017, 10:32:40 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.

I can appreciate this argument.  But having been a cadet that stayed a cadet until just shy of 21, thee are benefits.  I was a senior cadet and would not have earned my Spaatz if I was forced to transition at 18.  The majority of those older cadets as I have seen are advanced in the program.  Also, given that, many are working for higher command echelons as opposed to being just at the squadron level.  They tend to be a resource and motivating factor for the younger cadets.

 
Logged
Toad
Spaatz Award 1168 - 1 June 1993
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 10:45:55 AM »

I disagree. In my opinion, the Cadet Programs should end at 18. In most jurisdictions, 18 is considered the legal age for an adult. Yet a 20-year old cadet still have to follow many of the same rules as a 12-year old cadet, whereas an 18-year old senior member does not.

Furthermore, the age gap difference between a 19 or 20-year old cadet and a 12 or 13 year old cadet is too great. I can understand a cadet close to earning the Spaatz Award wanting to stay a cadet passed their 18th birthday, but for most non-Phase IV cadets, they start losing interest in the Cadet Programs after turning 18, especially if they're enrolled in college or working full time.

I generally agree with the idea, if for no other reason then it would bring some closure to the loop of the program's logic, as well as putting more emphasis on the clock ticking
for cadets with Spaatz on their mind, but I think the execution would cause other unintended consequences including significant attrition.

The presumption is that these former cadets can be valuable because they "get" CAP, when in many cases their exposure to what it actually takes to
run the mission, vs. being the mission is pretty limited, and coupled with their general lack of life experience, due primarily to their lack of "life",
limits how much they can do without direct guidance and mentoring at a much higher level then the average adult (i.e. people who don't spend the GDP of a small
country on car insurance).

Also, under 25, the average person's attention is focused on finishing school, career (or lack thereof), starting a family, or all the other "real things" the universe has in store,
leaving limited time for something like CAP.  If they are active enough as a cadet at 18 to really contribute, then they'd be better served staying a cadet,
partaking of things like NCSAs, encampment staff, and mentoring their peers then trying to integrate with the senior members in a world they haven't merged with yet.

Since people like to compare CAP with the BSA, you can look there for an example what has shown to work in a similar transition.

Under 18, the only staff job open to a Scout is "Assistant Scoutmaster" and all activities must be supervised by at least one person who is 12 or older. 
All overnight activities must be supervised by two adults 21 years or older.  So Scouts over 18 are generally considered to be in the "Leadership" but
are never the "Leaders".  They can assist with supervision, but are never the sole supervisors.  This has seemed to work quite well in that it allows
older Scouts to begin to learn to be leaders and managers while still acknowledging their "non-adult" status.

(Granted the environment is much more lax in regards to protocol. Respect is expected, but there are no courtesies, per se, and the duties and activities
of a Scout vs. Scout Leader are nearly identical other then the supervision and planning aspect.) 

Perhaps it is time CAP looked at a similar situation for Flight Officers, and make that a legitimate status between "Cadet" and "Senior".

Why not allow Flight Officers who were cadets to continue to pursue the Achievements and Milestones up to and including Spaatz
until they are 21?  Grade need not be tied to achievement in these cases - it already isn't in Phase III/IV anyway, so not much change there.
This would solve any number of problems, probably increase retention, and still recognize the transitional nature of the 18-21 year age range. 
Things could be left as-is for cadets under 18, with the option at 18 change, or perhaps simply make the transition mandatory at 18.

A member's ability to supervise (or not), could / would be based on their age and completing CPPT, not their grade or status (cadet / senior).

I'd also include the ability to allow Flight Officers who were former cadets to serve on encampment and NCSA staff or as participants,
and be eligible for most scholarships.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,092

« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 01:42:44 PM »

The presumption is that these former cadets can be valuable because they "get" CAP, when in many cases their exposure to what it actually takes to
run the mission, vs. being the mission is pretty limited, and coupled with their general lack of life experience, due primarily to their lack of "life",
limits how much they can do without direct guidance and mentoring at a much higher level then the average adult (i.e. people who don't spend the GDP of a small
country on car insurance).

Also, under 25, the average person's attention is focused on finishing school, career (or lack thereof), starting a family, or all the other "real things" the universe has in store,
leaving limited time for something like CAP.  If they are active enough as a cadet at 18 to really contribute, then they'd be better served staying a cadet,
partaking of things like NCSAs, encampment staff, and mentoring their peers then trying to integrate with the senior members in a world they haven't merged with yet.

Generally concur.

Quote
Why not allow Flight Officers who were cadets to continue to pursue the Achievements and Milestones up to and including Spaatz
until they are 21?  Grade need not be tied to achievement in these cases - it already isn't in Phase III/IV anyway, so not much change there.
This would solve any number of problems, probably increase retention, and still recognize the transitional nature of the 18-21 year age range. 
Things could be left as-is for cadets under 18, with the option at 18 change, or perhaps simply make the transition mandatory at 18.

A member's ability to supervise (or not), could / would be based on their age and completing CPPT, not their grade or status (cadet / senior).

I'd also include the ability to allow Flight Officers who were former cadets to serve on encampment and NCSA staff or as participants,
and be eligible for most scholarships.

We've tried that a couple times, of course.  Both the Advanced Cadet Transition(ACT)  and the Senior Transition Program (STP) were put in place with basically the same good intentions, and both failed for lack of participation.  Even when the former cadets in the programs could test for the Spaatz, remained eligible for scholarships, IACE, and other NCSAs.  The programs failed mostly because there is simply no significant upside to cadets to make the transition, and some significant downsides (lack of ability to participate as higher-level staff at encampments, region and national CACs, etc..)

Sure, a few cadets benefitted.  My lovely spouse earned her Spaatz in the ACT.  There were some timing issues involved in military deployments that made it to her advantage to participate in the program.  But experience has shown that there are relatively few cadets in that kind of fact-specific situation.  And cadets - then and now - always retain the option to turn senior after their 18th birthday if they are willing to accept the reduction in class and prestige.   8)

We've certainly had the discussion about whether to end the cadet program at less than the 21 years of age limit put in place by Spaatz, Curry, and LaGuardia many times here on CT.  But it tends to bog down when we try to figure out exactly what "problem" we are trying to solve by modifying the maximum age that has been in place for 75 years.

Ned Lee
Logged
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 113
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2017, 05:49:50 PM »

I for one am glad I could stay a cadet after 18. I joined at 16 and received my Mitchell a month after I turned 18. I stayed a cadet until I was 21+ (according to when NHQ says I became a SM, it was several months later when my cadet membership expired). During that time I progressed from C/WO to C/Lt Col, went on a special activity, was on cadet staff at an encampment, etc.
Logged
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2017, 07:37:23 PM »

Within the past couple of months, Wyoming Wing has had, not ONE but TWO Spaatz Cadets.  Both that are past 18, and one is almost 21 IIRC.

Wyoming Wing hasn't had, unfortunately, a Spaatz Cadet since 1984.  (I was close and had one test in 2013.)
Logged
<redacted>

GRW 3340
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,762

« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2017, 09:32:46 PM »

Spaatz Cadets who are under the age of 18 are fairly rare.
Logged
Hyperion
Recruit

Posts: 33

« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2017, 02:31:53 AM »

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless.

I have helped quite a few young Flight Officers during the past two years as my unit is located next to a large university and the program has done absolutely nothing to help them. Their ranks are too confusing to everyone to understand or care about. In fact, a large population of our own organization still considers them to be cadets! Air Force personnel are also annoyed at our detachment from the proper Air Force ranks and insignia and I have dealt with quite a few servicemembers come to me looking for help on how to deal with "those people" in my unit. Even worse is that our own National Headquarters does not even bother to confirm the Flight Officer ranks in eServices or on the ID card! And to top it off, there are some required uniform items that Vanguard does not even sell because the Flight Officer ranks are so rare that it is not worth it for them to stock the materials. (Random tangent: SMWOG are NOT authorized to wear the Mess Dress uniform, but Flight Officers can. Who, as a Flight Officer, has a Mess Dress before 21 years old, and why can a teenager get one but an adult, who may have been a loyal member for years, is barred from wearing one but not any other Air Force uniform?)

Hell, Flight Officers used to be the only ranks where you could can get DEMOTED because of your age. (This was not too long ago when it took 3 months to make Flight Officer.) If you were a Flight Officer and turned 21 but did not have the TIG for 2d Lt, you went back to being a SMWOG. One day you are above them in rank and uniform--along with being allowed to wearing the Mess Dress--but the next morning after your birthday you required strip your uniform, lose your salutes, and give up your Mess Dress for a while. (This has happened twice at my unit, much to frustration of the Flight Officers.) This is an example of how asinine and arbitrary the Flight Officer ranks have become and what "fixes" are being added to try and keep it relevant. This is a waste of time and resources while adding more useless regulations to fill a bloated organization. Flight Officers are also the only ranks where you will be unable to physically advance to the top of the program if you joined day one of eligibility: the new TIG between ranks makes it so a day one 18 year old WILL NOT have enough TIG to reach SFO before aging out. Why do we have a program that discriminates based on age?

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless. They have no value in our organization and waste everyone's time and money. They are a solution to a non-existent problem within CAP.

Do not replace the Flight Officer ranks, just remove them. Any senior member who joins before the age of 21 is merely a SMWOG. Done. Easy. This way you have to sit back and learn more of the organization while growing up as a new adult and observe how things are run. Those years as a new SMWOG will allow you avoid any rank drama or headache while giving you an opportunity to work on professional development and qualifications until you are ready for the officer ranks. Those years will also allow new members to grow in maturity and understanding of our senior program before assuming any command.

Continue to allow cadets to stay until 21. Continue to allow seniors to join at 18. Hell, you could make that in-between transition people are talking about where you can do both cadet and senior PD to entice new converts, if desired. However, at the end of the day, we need to remove the Flight Officer ranks in their entirety. Let us help make our organization run more smoothly, logically, and professionally. Remove the Flight Officer ranks.

Logged
To serve in silence.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2017, 07:51:09 AM »

[quote author=Ned link=topic=21800.msg399628#msg399628 date=1487180564

 

We've tried that a couple times, of course.  Both the Advanced Cadet Transition(ACT)  and the Senior Transition Program (STP) were put in place with basically the same good intentions, and both failed for lack of participation.  Even when the former cadets in the programs could test for the Spaatz, remained eligible for scholarships, IACE, and other NCSAs.  The programs failed mostly because there is simply no significant upside to cadets to make the transition, and some significant downsides (lack of ability to participate as higher-level staff at encampments, region and national CACs, etc..)



We've certainly had the discussion about whether to end the cadet program at less than the 21 years of age limit put in place by Spaatz, Curry, and LaGuardia many times here on CT.  But it tends to bog down when we try to figure out exactly what "problem" we are trying to solve by modifying the maximum age that has been in place for 75 years.

Ned Lee
[/quote]

I was an "ACT" participant myself for about three months. I had finished doing cadet things and was already moving into the senior world. As a 20-year old C/Lt Col I was pretty much a de facto senior anyway and had decided not to take the Spaatz Exan for what I believed at the time to be good reasons. So, ACT just made it official.

However, our upper age limit has not been as it is for the last 75 years. Also, Curry and La Guardia had nothing to do with setting the current upper age limit. In fact, Curry was gone from CAP before the first CAP cadets even joined with their age 18 upper age limit. La Guardia died 10 years before the age 21 limit was set. (Spaatz was Chairman of the Board when it was set, so he does get credit).

From 1942 to 1954, the upper age limit was 18. In 1954 it was raised to 20. The age 21 limit was set in 1957*, so we have had that for 60 years, not 75 years.

*(Before the current practice of 21st Birthday being the limit, at one time the limit was the first renewal date after the 21st birthday. I know a couple of people who were able to stretch that out to almost age 22).
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 113
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2017, 05:04:16 PM »

For me is was 21 plus slightly more than 4 months (although the details tend to be lost in the mists of time). I always wondered how Chris was able to get her Spaatz. It was explained to me only as a "special program." It's good to have a few more details.
Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2017, 05:58:08 PM »

I for one am glad I could stay a cadet after 18. I joined at 16 and received my Mitchell a month after I turned 18. I stayed a cadet until I was 21+ (according to when NHQ says I became a SM, it was several months later when my cadet membership expired). During that time I progressed from C/WO to C/Lt Col, went on a special activity, was on cadet staff at an encampment, etc.
Same. Glad I stayed.



Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2017, 04:50:29 PM »

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless.

I have helped quite a few young Flight Officers during the past two years as my unit is located next to a large university and the program has done absolutely nothing to help them. Their ranks are too confusing to everyone to understand or care about. In fact, a large population of our own organization still considers them to be cadets! Air Force personnel are also annoyed at our detachment from the proper Air Force ranks and insignia and I have dealt with quite a few servicemembers come to me looking for help on how to deal with "those people" in my unit. Even worse is that our own National Headquarters does not even bother to confirm the Flight Officer ranks in eServices or on the ID card! And to top it off, there are some required uniform items that Vanguard does not even sell because the Flight Officer ranks are so rare that it is not worth it for them to stock the materials. (Random tangent: SMWOG are NOT authorized to wear the Mess Dress uniform, but Flight Officers can. Who, as a Flight Officer, has a Mess Dress before 21 years old, and why can a teenager get one but an adult, who may have been a loyal member for years, is barred from wearing one but not any other Air Force uniform?)

Hell, Flight Officers used to be the only ranks where you could can get DEMOTED because of your age. (This was not too long ago when it took 3 months to make Flight Officer.) If you were a Flight Officer and turned 21 but did not have the TIG for 2d Lt, you went back to being a SMWOG. One day you are above them in rank and uniform--along with being allowed to wearing the Mess Dress--but the next morning after your birthday you required strip your uniform, lose your salutes, and give up your Mess Dress for a while. (This has happened twice at my unit, much to frustration of the Flight Officers.) This is an example of how asinine and arbitrary the Flight Officer ranks have become and what "fixes" are being added to try and keep it relevant. This is a waste of time and resources while adding more useless regulations to fill a bloated organization. Flight Officers are also the only ranks where you will be unable to physically advance to the top of the program if you joined day one of eligibility: the new TIG between ranks makes it so a day one 18 year old WILL NOT have enough TIG to reach SFO before aging out. Why do we have a program that discriminates based on age?

The Flight Officer ranks are worthless. They have no value in our organization and waste everyone's time and money. They are a solution to a non-existent problem within CAP.

Do not replace the Flight Officer ranks, just remove them. Any senior member who joins before the age of 21 is merely a SMWOG. Done. Easy. This way you have to sit back and learn more of the organization while growing up as a new adult and observe how things are run. Those years as a new SMWOG will allow you avoid any rank drama or headache while giving you an opportunity to work on professional development and qualifications until you are ready for the officer ranks. Those years will also allow new members to grow in maturity and understanding of our senior program before assuming any command.

Continue to allow cadets to stay until 21. Continue to allow seniors to join at 18. Hell, you could make that in-between transition people are talking about where you can do both cadet and senior PD to entice new converts, if desired. However, at the end of the day, we need to remove the Flight Officer ranks in their entirety. Let us help make our organization run more smoothly, logically, and professionally. Remove the Flight Officer ranks.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 04:54:47 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2017, 05:06:26 PM »

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

How, exactly?  The average member doesn't understand them now, and the progression from "enlisted" to officer doesn't generally go
from E4 to 2d Lt without some prior service, academy, or similar.

The "S/Airmen" wouldn't be subordinate to the few prior-service NCOs CAP has, but that would be the high-level insinuation.

This just takes one incomprehensible / disconnected grade and trades it for a different one, adding the hassle of sewing
sleeve insignia and ruining shirts as a value-add.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2017, 05:12:31 PM »

Of course this whole topic of a cadet becoming a Flight Officer may soon be pointless. Looking at the new CAPR35-5 (22112016) it appears that there my be an error in the Flight Officer program Time-in-Grade requirements or CAP may already be attempting to phase out the Flight Officer program.  If one joins on their 18th Birthday (The earliest age that one can be an FO) there are only 36 months to their 21 birthday (The age that they age out and become regular CAP Officers).
CAPR 35-5, 7.4.2. Requirements for Specific Grades (Figure 10) outlines that it will take 54 months of Time-In Grade (6mths from SM to FO, 18mths from FO to TFO, 30mths from TSO to SFO = 54mths), an improbability given the 36 month age out.
Question: Is it an error or is the Flight Officer program being phased out?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 07:22:45 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2017, 05:32:21 PM »

Correct for new members, but dark-siders could make the advanced FO grades.

At the end of the day, though, it's a lot of noise for something eServices inexplicable still doesn't track,
VG doesn't make some needed insignia, serves very little ultimate purpose, and affects very few members.

IMHO, having under 21 year old seniors stay as SMWG, while allowing them to progress in PD, pending
turning 21 would seem to be just as good a solution.

That or have all adult members start as FOs, which would be just as viable,
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2017, 06:25:10 PM »

Your attempting to make too great a jump in logic about my post, it's largely a tongue in cheek reply. The "average" member understands little about most military topics to include recognizing the Airman ranks so I agree with you there. But I will argue that even fewer people know what a Flight Officer is. When I was an FO/TFO at my old CAP unit at Columbus AFB, the Air Force personnel often thought me to be a Coast Guard member and when I attended SLS & CLC few senior members know what I was even at that level of training. As for the Airman to Officer jump I'm a big supporter of the idea that everyone should pass the CAP Officer Basic Course before being made an Officer. But I'm not going to fight about any of it. I'm trying to decide if I want the higher pay as a CAP Major or the better career opportunities of being an NCO.

I would not be opposed to the discontinuation of the Flight Officer Grades but would prefer them to be replaced perhaps with junior enlisted grades E2-E4. Up to three years would be a long time for someone to feel as if they are not making any progress as a SMWOG. 6 months as SMWOG, 6 months as E-2, 12 months as E-3, before making E-4. The Airman grades would make more sense to everyone, they would still have "about" the same amount of "Authority" as a Flight Officer and our NCO's would not look so out of place.

How, exactly?  The average member doesn't understand them now, and the progression from "enlisted" to officer doesn't generally go
from E4 to 2d Lt without some prior service, academy, or similar.

The "S/Airmen" wouldn't be subordinate to the few prior-service NCOs CAP has, but that would be the high-level insinuation.

This just takes one incomprehensible / disconnected grade and trades it for a different one, adding the hassle of sewing
sleeve insignia and ruining shirts as a value-add.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:51:48 PM by Elihu.Lowery » Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2017, 06:37:18 PM »

C/SSGT RODRIGUEZ,

My advice to you would be to try to earn your Mitchell Award which has a few perks such as an advance enlistment in the Air Force and just for the bragging rights of saying you were a Cadet (Trust me though the lens of time your Cadet service will become cherished). Then if you still have time become a Flight Officer, if for no other reason than to amuse yourself at all the confused looks your going to get when you tell people that your a Flight Officer. :-)

I recently turned 18 and would like to switch from being a cadet to a FO.
What is required to do so? Testing, applications, etc.
Thank you for any help and information.
Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Elihu.Lowery
Recruit

Posts: 20
Unit: SER-AL-090

Facebook
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2017, 07:59:12 PM »

Eclipse,
What is the function of pay grades within the Civil Air Patrol when we don't get paid?
The paygrade normally just shows ones level of training. The highest trained is normally in charge but not always, I've been in units where 1Lt's have out ranked LtCol's. Another function of grades like the Flight Officer is that it allows new(er) young adult members to feel as if they are accomplishing something so they are less likely to feel as if they are wasting their time. It would be hard for a person to go to CAP meetings month after month, year after year, while completing Level upon Level of training just to have all the new members who joined after them promote, while they have nothing to show for it. So enter the Flight Officer grades, you can tell their level of training by the grade and they feel as if they are being rewarded for all the effort they are putting in. That is the ultimate purpose, it does not matter if eservices tracks it or not.

Correct for new members, but dark-siders could make the advanced FO grades.

At the end of the day, though, it's a lot of noise for something eServices inexplicable still doesn't track,
VG doesn't make some needed insignia, serves very little ultimate purpose, and affects very few members.

IMHO, having under 21 year old seniors stay as SMWG, while allowing them to progress in PD, pending
turning 21 would seem to be just as good a solution.

That or have all adult members start as FOs, which would be just as viable,
Logged
Elihu J. Lowery, Capt., CAP
Cadet Programs Officer
SER-AL-090 117Th ANG Composite Squadron
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2017, 01:45:39 AM »

Current Flight Officer, decided to chime in

I jumped to FO mainly because I wasn't progressing in the Cadet Program, thus decided I was doing my squadron a disservice by remaining a cadet. I felt I was setting a poor example to the cadet corps of Nellis Composite by not making even PROGRESS towards my next rank. I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Between March and July I thought long and hard and just decided my time was up, I felt I no longer needed to be a cadet. I turned in my papers in July my very last week before leaving Nevada to take part in AmeriCorps NCCC - FEMA Corps. In July I reported to Baltimore for training and then around August deployed with FEMA Region 6 IMAT Team 2 to the Baton Rouge JFO where I worked as an IMAT Planner in Resources.

My reasons for becoming an FO are probably very much personal, but none-the-less, that's why I decided to turn FO from a cadet.

Oh and also, yes it is amusing to see the looks as I try explaining FO lol, I find myself constantly looking at the 35-2 Membership Reg, it seems like a very...."convoluted" system for the lack of a better word. I find myself confused a lot and unsure if I can even progress in the senior program. But I do plan on attending an SLS class in March. I'm 20, I'll make TFO right before my 21st birthday, TFO makes Senior Member 1st. Lt.

Also...in response to why use pay grades in CAP: it's useful to use E-x or O-x when talking to other branches. When I was invited to talk about CAP and give a recruiting presentation to my Naval JROTC Battalion in high school I was a C/CMSgt I said I was an E-9, which is equivalent to a Chief Petty Officer. None of my fellow Naval Cadets (because I was a platoon commander, and was in charge of a period) would know USAF so I used pay grades.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 01:52:45 AM by Shieldel » Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,935
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2017, 04:26:22 AM »

Quote
I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Could you explained sustained for us? I've been around CAP for a while, and have never heard this before.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2017, 12:17:17 PM »

Quote
I received my Mitchell award at NVWG Conference in October of 2015, then didn't get my sustained until February or March of 2016. I was removed from Cadet Commander due to internal squadron struggles (stuff that shouldn't necessarily be aired out on a public forum out of respect). I lost motivation to make rank after I lost my position. I stayed sustained until last July.

Could you explained sustained for us? I've been around CAP for a while, and have never heard this before.

Essentially I was promoted as a Second Lieutenant twice. There was the first time when I got my Mitchell, and then when you promote again, there's a "dead rank". At Chief you start having to spend 4 months in every rank as every rank after chief has that dead rank, or "xx sustained"

Edited for grammar
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 12:20:56 PM by Shieldel » Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shieldel
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2017, 12:42:42 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program, each officer rank has a "sustained" or "dead rank". Each officer rank has a "sustained" after the first one. IE exactly how I talked. Achievements 10 & 11 are 1st Lt. Cadet Captain and Cadet Major are very..."unique" in the sense you spend 6 months in each rank.

You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.
Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2017, 01:06:30 PM »

Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program,


Whooooooo boy.


Where's the popcorn?
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2017, 01:24:44 PM »

You're not being "promoted" multiple times, nor is "sustained" in the CAP parlance in this regard.

Those Achievements simply have no promotion attached. Using the term "sustained" this way implies there's an option that
you wouldn't be.
Please refer to the cadet super chart, since you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program, each officer rank has a "sustained" or "dead rank". Each officer rank has a "sustained" after the first one. IE exactly how I talked. Achievements 10 & 11 are 1st Lt. Cadet Captain and Cadet Major are very..."unique" in the sense you spend 6 months in each rank.

You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.

You're kidding, right? Take a look at the sig line of the highly experienced officer that you just insulted. See that little badge on the right? That's the CP badge. Take cution with you tone. Eclipse and I may not see eye to eye on some things, but he is an experienced officer that has forgotten more about the CP than we know combined.

Now to the issue, cite a regulatory source for this term.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2017, 01:32:26 PM »

...you have no first hand experience in CAP's Cadet Program,



You're trying to say we don't use sustained in CAP. So what do you want us to say? "Retained in rank"? Sounds like the person doesn't have the maturity to promote in that sense.

When a cadet is "sustained" in grade, it means he was eligible for promotion and that promotion is being denied.

See CAPR 52-16, Page 16:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R052_016_2011_02_BFAB729553AB1.pdf
"e. Sustaining a Cadet in Grade. Commanders may sustain a promotion-eligible cadet in grade if
the cadetís performance or maturity does not demonstrate an ability to accept increased responsibility
commensurate with the promotion. Using the CAPF 50, Cadet Leadership Feedback, the commander (or
deputy commander) will offer constructive feed-back to help the cadet develop his/her leadership skills.
The commander must also schedule a follow-up review to be held within 60 days"


It is not, in any way, related to the achievements which do not have an accompanying promotion. In those cases,
cadets are neither "sustained" nor "retained", there is simply no promotion attached to those achievements.

I don't even know the first thing about regs in general,

Without putting too fine a point on it, as a new FO, you are clearly in "learning mode" - we are all wrong or off-base on occasion, but when
people with more experience then you provide corrections, you should at least take the time to make sure you can substantiate your
argument before making statements which impugn the ability of the person trying to help you.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2017, 01:42:20 PM »

This new and nicer Eclipse...what this is, I don't even...
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,935
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2017, 01:43:52 PM »

PM sent. Let the public pillorying end.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 661

« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2017, 03:04:12 PM »

Of course this whole topic of a cadet becoming a Flight Officer may soon be pointless. Looking at the new CAPR35-5 (22112016) it appears that there my be an error in the Flight Officer program Time-in-Grade requirements or CAP may already be attempting to phase out the Flight Officer program.  If one joins on their 18th Birthday (The earliest age that one can be an FO) there are only 36 months to their 21 birthday (The age that they age out and become regular CAP Officers).
CAPR 35-5, 7.4.2. Requirements for Specific Grades (Figure 10) outlines that it will take 54 months of Time-In Grade (6mths from SM to FO, 18mths from FO to TFO, 30mths from TSO to SFO = 54mths), an improbability given the 36 month age out.
Question: Is it an error or is the Flight Officer program being phased out?

The program isn't being phased out as far as I know but NHQ did realign the FO promotion requirements to be more in sync with the new promotion requirements for officer grades.  A former cadet can still reach the grades for TFO and SFO if they earned the Earhart or higher awards when they were a cadet.
Logged
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 113
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2017, 03:19:18 PM »

I think it is possible that "sustained" in this context has become "Nevada Speak." I have heard our cadets refer to the Armstrong Achievement as C/CMSgt sustained. It isn't technically wrong either as sustained means "continuing for an extended period or without interruption."
Logged
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,975

« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2017, 06:15:38 PM »

I think it is possible that "sustained" in this context has become "Nevada Speak." I have heard our cadets refer to the Armstrong Achievement as C/CMSgt sustained. It isn't technically wrong either as sustained means "continuing for an extended period or without interruption."

Actually it is technically wrong. As Eclipse pointed out above, the term "sustained" has a very specific meaning in CAP regulations. Beyond that, it implies that there is an option for the cadet to lose rank if the "ghost achievement" is not completed, which there absolutely is not.

The fact of the matter is, there are multiple achievements in the CAP cadet program, primarily in the third and fourth phase, that have no accompanying promotion.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2017, 07:10:38 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2017, 09:43:37 PM »

Also check CAPR 39-2, 3.2.5 which specifically addresses the process for cadets transferring to active senior status.

As mentioned before, this is a one way trip so make sure that you have done as much of the cadet program as you wish or are able before starting Down this road. If you're 18 and don't have your orientation flights completed, you won't be able to complete the Mitchell award.


Wow, that's a change.  I never finished all my O-rides, not because I was not interested in flying for obvious reasons.  I had my Private Pilot Glider by the time I was 17 and was already soloed in a SEL airplane and was on track to get my SEL add on at least by 18, which is when I got it.  By this time I had already had my Earhart working towards the Spaatz, which I did not get.  Do they give credit for cadets working on aeronautical ratings?  I mean a kid soloing a plane has more aeronautical knowledge than the 5 flights I give the kido's from their syllabus.  Don't get me wrong I am all for the O-ride program, especially since I get free hours and currency out of it.  I think its a little over the top to penalize people for not getting all of them.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 11:58:47 PM by Starbux » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2017, 10:11:56 PM »

^^^ Read further down.  This is incorrect.

O-rides are not tied to any achievements or promotions.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2017, 11:57:18 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.

I agree I never really saw a point in it either.  I became TFO four months from being 21.  I only did it after I had come back from IACE and blew my final chance at the Spaatz, long story, no time.  I did it so I can go into an all SM squadron that flew most of the air missions in the wing.  It was fine there, because we were not a rank centric squadron.  I was pretty much "retired" from cadet life after those events.
Logged
SPAATZ1315
Recruit

Posts: 8
Unit: RMR-CO-183

« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2017, 05:58:56 PM »

Don't do it!! Stay a Cadet as long as you can. Take advantage of all that the Cadet program has to offer. You only get to be a Cadet once in your life. Don't be in such a hurry to become a Senior Member. It's time will come.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Logged
LATORRECA
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2017, 03:02:14 AM »

I wonder if the cadet is still following this topic. Hey buddy are you still a cadet or you jump to the disappointment side. @Mrodriguez

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk

Logged
Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2017, 03:54:24 AM »

^^^ Read further down.  This is incorrect.

O-rides are not tied to any achievements or promotions.

Gotcha, I should have known better to bite off on the internet  ;)
Logged
Mrodriguez
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: NE-094

« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2017, 03:01:39 PM »

First off thank you everyone for your comments and information it's greatly appreciated. Secondly I have chosen to go senior for a few reasons. Like another in the thread I don't see myself progressing and don't want to stay that way. I also believe I can help my squadron more as a senior member and I would like to begin as soon as possible and start learning and working. Thank you again.  8)
Logged
SM. RODRIGUEZ
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2017, 12:48:21 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.

"Officer candidate"
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #72 on: March 02, 2017, 02:50:22 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.

"Officer candidate"

Nope. Not everyone is going down the zero path.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #73 on: March 07, 2017, 11:55:51 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.

"Officer candidate"

Nope. Not everyone is going down the zero path.

 :P I expected a similar reply the moment after I hit "Post."

I think some form of "Candidate" title is a bit more appropriate than the "Without Grade" status. Candidate implies that you are in training to earn a grade. A Sponsor Member is "without grade" and will never assume a grade unless they change to a candidate in the officer or NCO pipelines.
Logged
DomLaz475381
Newbie

Posts: 4
Unit: NER-PA-214

« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2017, 12:25:38 AM »

I've recently switched from cadet to TFO. I think that the decision is positive, although the next few months may  be a learning curve. You have to be mentally prepared to switch, personal advancement ceases and you have to be more concerned about the advancement of your cadets. I am intending on taking on the role of activities officer for my home unit because I feel that the best way I can aide my cadets is planning fun trips to keep the cadets interested. I think that it's rewarding to provide your cadets with fun life experiences that they will carry with them forever. If you have and questions feel free to reach out to me, and welcome to the dark side!
Logged
Dominick R. Lazaro II
Technical Flight Officer
PA Wing

Wright Brothers-20603,  Mitchell-65040, Amelia Earhart-17164
NREMT-B/PROBOARD-FIREFIGHTER I
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,121

« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2017, 12:36:10 AM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
The Flight Officer structure exists to prevent CAP from have sub-21 year old Lts and Capts.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,703

« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2017, 12:51:52 AM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
The Flight Officer structure exists to prevent CAP from have sub-21 year old Lts and Capts.

Which apparently isn't a hard-fast issue for the US military, so why is it for CAP?

http://hanfordsentinel.com/kingsburg_recorder/news/kingsburg-student-completes-officer-candidate-school/article_7a2ec666-bae2-5cf5-a413-ed3ab53aeb8a.html



With a relevent degree, you can join the officer program with the USAF at 18:
https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/process/officer

19 for Army OCS: http://www.goarmy.com/ocs.html

Frankly, the numbers who would be affected in CAP would be slightly higher, but not too much so, then the above edge cases.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,975

« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2017, 09:05:00 AM »

...personal advancement ceases and you have to be more concerned about the advancement of your cadets.

I just want to point out this one point real quick. Yes, you have to be more concerned about those below you advancing. One of the best ways to do that is to continue to set a good example. In other words, your personal advancement never ceases, because if it does then you are not setting that good example.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Ŗτε
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 775
Unit: PCR-CA-437

« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2017, 09:20:32 AM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
The Flight Officer structure exists to prevent CAP from have sub-21 year old Lts and Capts.
I think it's more to prevent 21 year old majors and 25 year old lt colonels.
Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 875
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2017, 10:24:19 AM »

I think you may be correct (about the prevention aspects), but the question remains: why?

First question: why?
If we truly want to reward ability and merit-based advancement/achievement, why not formally note that we have a tighter "pipeline" for advancement (the current path set by CAP leadership of tightening up PD requirements for advanced grades) and then loosen the age restriction on the lower end of the pipeline (unless it is a hard, written mandate from our USAF customer, which it may be)? Is it a USAF mandate, or is this something we can adjust to bring on hard chargers.

Second question: how is that working out?
Some 18-21s will make different choices on which path to take to excel/advance, just as in any career path. Is the "FO" structure actually working to prevent young field grades? From my perspective it is not, since the regs allow time in grade and PD credit as an FO to apply to junior officer advancement. I turned SM at age 18 in the late 80s to begin training as aircrew, in a day when cadets over 18 were forbidden from MS/MO/MP/GTL ratings. With credit for my under 21 SM activity I ended up making Lt Col at age 29. That obviously rankled the (Army career officer) MDWG Chief of Staff at the time, who flipped my promotion action into my lap as he stalked past me at Commanders Call (no ceremony for you, laddie buck!). So, what was the constructive point in slapping a young Sqdn/CC (me) down, just for being young? What behaviors are we trying to corporately reward and/or suppress, and should that not be the basis for the system?


Point: we should set performance and training standards, and eliminate biases based on age, sex, and any other non factors from consideration for promotion actions.

(and nowadays, I can say that as an older Lt Col, probably in my terminal grade for 20+ years)!

V/r
Spam


Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2017, 10:37:40 AM »

Eh, I'm a 27 year old Major, was approved for it at 26. I've got former cadets on AD AF duty as Captains, doesn't really seem that far fetched, or out of bounds.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2017, 10:29:26 PM »

I was a TFO before I became a butter bar. In hindsight over 20+ years, there is no value to the FO structure. Eliminate it. Make SMOWG a training grade for either the O or NCO path.
The Flight Officer structure exists to prevent CAP from have sub-21 year old Lts and Capts.

Which apparently isn't a hard-fast issue for the US military, so why is it for CAP?

http://hanfordsentinel.com/kingsburg_recorder/news/kingsburg-student-completes-officer-candidate-school/article_7a2ec666-bae2-5cf5-a413-ed3ab53aeb8a.html



With a relevent degree, you can join the officer program with the USAF at 18:
https://www.airforce.com/how-to-join/process/officer

19 for Army OCS: http://www.goarmy.com/ocs.html

Frankly, the numbers who would be affected in CAP would be slightly higher, but not too much so, then the above edge cases.

You can't commission until you have the degree though. So unless the person managed to complete college prior to being 19, they'll like be around 21-23. Our average OCS age was around 24 if I was to ballpark that. I'd say half had masters degrees.

CAP is a pretty big different in that realm. The training program for officers in CAP is fairly informal and minimal, even when promoting through the ranks through the required training courses. You can virtually satisfy going from SMWOG to Captain with roughly a week's worth of classroom learning, online quizzes, time in grade, and minimal mentoring.


Eh, I'm a 27 year old Major, was approved for it at 26. I've got former cadets on AD AF duty as Captains, doesn't really seem that far fetched, or out of bounds.

No disrespect intended, Sir, but you don't see too many military O-4s below the age of 30. CAP is always unique in that regard, as some cadets can literally transition to senior member and be a Captain by age 21. You don't see that in the modern military, especially when we're seeing the maturity of legal aged adults shifting into the mid-to-late 20s nowadays.


I think, overall in CAP, you have a lot of people with very little experience in some pretty important positions where they don't receive that mentoring that would really benefit their progression, and a lot of them don't have any prior CAP or military experience, nor have they held any level of command role in an organization before (or civilian equivalent).

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.
Logged
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,975

« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2017, 09:41:00 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.
Logged

If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #83 on: March 23, 2017, 10:49:37 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #84 on: March 23, 2017, 11:19:35 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I've known 2 that became commanders shortly after turning 21. Both were very successful. While they might not have a 3 page resume, they did have almost a decade of CAP experience that they put to good use.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #85 on: March 23, 2017, 12:42:48 PM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I've known 2 that became commanders shortly after turning 21. Both were very successful. While they might not have a 3 page resume, they did have almost a decade of CAP experience that they put to good use.


High speed, low drag, quick learners exist, no argument there.
Logged
MHC5096
Forum Regular

Posts: 150
Unit: NY-388

« Reply #86 on: March 23, 2017, 02:06:49 PM »

I was a 21 year old Squadron Commander.  ;D
Logged
M. H. Crary, Lieutenant Colonel, CAP

CAP - Lt Col (1983-Present) | USNR - QM2 (1989-1995) | VTANG - MSgt (1995-2009) | USAFR - MSgt (2009-2011) | CGAUX - BA/ADSO/FSO (2011-Present)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 839

« Reply #87 on: March 23, 2017, 04:14:09 PM »

I stand by it.

And a SMWOG should especially not be a squadron commander.

I understand that there may be extreme exceptions, but for the most part, let's be honest: there are a number of CAP roles that have people in them with very little training. Sure, maybe they can train in that role and learn through practical experience. As I always ask, how many of us seniors had a formal indoctrination into CAP versus those who had to learn it on their own? I'd say a good percentage. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's detrimental, but there could be a number of issues that come with that: noncompliance with numerous regulations due to lack of knowledge, inability to manage an effective program, incorrect teaching of subject matter, etc. Yes, there are instances of even those with experience having those very same issues, but the intent of having a training program is to reduce inexperience at higher levels as the training relates. You are more likely, per chance, to have promote from SMWOG to Second Lieutenant within 6 months of joining CAP, become squadron commander, be instated as a First Lieutenant, and see troublesome issues than a SMWOG working his/her way up to Captain over time and go through the proper training pipeline, gain the experience, and become squadron commander with much lesser issues.

The fact of it is some units exist solely because someone "stepped up" when there was nobody else who would take on the role. That unit may succeed quite well, but likeliness would say they're more likely to have some problems along the way if that person is low in experience, especially if this person is younger and does not have much life experience.

A 21-year old West Point graduate who participated in JROTC prior and commissions to become a Second Lieutenant is not going to be a Company Commander in an infantry battalion. They do not have the experience to take on that responsibility.

CAP typically says we do not have the luxury of going through a formal, extensive officer training program. It is what it is. But when you have the ability to select those command-level individuals, it needs to be done with great vetting. Often, it seems to fall on someone who was not expecting it to come up. "Want to be squadron commander?" "Not really." "Well, if nobody else does it, your unit has to close or become a flight." "Okay, fine, I'll do it." It's not a guaranteed failure. But they should be scrutinized and greatly watched over by their superior to be sure it doesn't fall apart. If they succeed, great. But keep an eye out.
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #88 on: March 23, 2017, 04:59:02 PM »

I stand by it.

And a SMWOG should especially not be a squadron commander.

I understand that there may be extreme exceptions, but for the most part, let's be honest: there are a number of CAP roles that have people in them with very little training. Sure, maybe they can train in that role and learn through practical experience. As I always ask, how many of us seniors had a formal indoctrination into CAP versus those who had to learn it on their own? I'd say a good percentage. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's detrimental, but there could be a number of issues that come with that: noncompliance with numerous regulations due to lack of knowledge, inability to manage an effective program, incorrect teaching of subject matter, etc. Yes, there are instances of even those with experience having those very same issues, but the intent of having a training program is to reduce inexperience at higher levels as the training relates. You are more likely, per chance, to have promote from SMWOG to Second Lieutenant within 6 months of joining CAP, become squadron commander, be instated as a First Lieutenant, and see troublesome issues than a SMWOG working his/her way up to Captain over time and go through the proper training pipeline, gain the experience, and become squadron commander with much lesser issues.

The fact of it is some units exist solely because someone "stepped up" when there was nobody else who would take on the role. That unit may succeed quite well, but likeliness would say they're more likely to have some problems along the way if that person is low in experience, especially if this person is younger and does not have much life experience.

A 21-year old West Point graduate who participated in JROTC prior and commissions to become a Second Lieutenant is not going to be a Company Commander in an infantry battalion. They do not have the experience to take on that responsibility.

CAP typically says we do not have the luxury of going through a formal, extensive officer training program. It is what it is. But when you have the ability to select those command-level individuals, it needs to be done with great vetting. Often, it seems to fall on someone who was not expecting it to come up. "Want to be squadron commander?" "Not really." "Well, if nobody else does it, your unit has to close or become a flight." "Okay, fine, I'll do it." It's not a guaranteed failure. But they should be scrutinized and greatly watched over by their superior to be sure it doesn't fall apart. If they succeed, great. But keep an eye out.

Why? Nothing in any manual, regulation or pamphlet says that a SM is required to take a grade, any grade. I've known a number of SMWOG that served in key positions, including command, and their lack of doodads on their sleeves or shoulders did not prevent them from being productive and competent members.

The extreme cases are the ones where a commander is chosen by being voluntold or "because he is there". I've been a member of a couple of wings in 2 different Regions. I've never seen command of any unit or activity given to someone because he was the only one in the room at the time.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,762

« Reply #89 on: March 23, 2017, 09:29:40 PM »

SkyHornet, you don't see any 27 year old Majors in "the real military" because you typically pin on Major about the same time you have about 10 years of commissioned service. Special commissions for Doctors and Lawyers are on a different track.
Logged
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 634
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2017, 02:41:27 AM »

I firmly believe that a 21-year old former C/Col is in no position, whether through practical experience or emotional maturity, to become a Squadron Commander as a senior member.

Neither is a SMWOG with 2 weeks of CAP experience, but it still happens.


I'd argue life experience (and CAP SM experience) is low, but on the maturity side? If someone makes a 21 year old a Squadron Commander, then they are probably not your typical 21 year old.

I was a Squadron Commander at 20, turning 21 about 6 weeks later. But, I'd been cadet commander of two squadrons, Chairman of a large and active Wing CAC, had served on Wing Staff as a CPO and had been a Group CPO. In other words, while still a cadet officer, i was doing a lot of Warrant Officer-like things that my fellow cadets were not. (I went from C/LtCol to WO a few days before I took over the Squadron).

The Squadron had some particular needs and my skill set matched. The Group Commander asked me to take over and I did. I had to do an almost total house cleaning of seniors immediately but recruited done great replacements.

I left it a going concern and it's still there, 42 years later (although I haven't been back in at least 35 years).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 02:44:44 AM by Mitchell 1969 » Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 5 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to Flight Officer
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.24 seconds with 20 queries.