Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 17, 2017, 06:13:41 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Who is required to be on a Senior Member Promotion Board?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] Print
Author Topic: Who is required to be on a Senior Member Promotion Board?  (Read 1856 times)
MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 304

« on: January 20, 2017, 08:48:01 AM »

We recently had some changes in the Senior Member ranks of the squadron and were having a discussion about making changes to the membership of the Senior Member Promotion Board. As a result of that conversation, I went back to the regulations - Specifically 35-5 and looked at the text in "1.10 - Promotion Boards". Here is where my question comes in:

I could have sworn that there was a requirement that the Senior Member Promotion Board had to have a minimum of three members and that both the Personnel Officer and the Professional Development Officer were required to be on it. However, looking over the text of the 22 November 2016 version, those requirements are not there.

Am I going crazy? Or did the change in the regulation eliminate that requirement?

Anyone here have an older version of the reg who can tell (PM or publicly) if my memory is faulty?

Thanks to all who answer!

 ???
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2017, 09:10:01 AM »

I can see the unfortunate logic of eliminating it, if it had been there. With so many SMs wearing multiple hats, the PD and -1 could potentially be the same person. Many units might not be able to meet the minimum as it's written now.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2017, 09:20:44 AM »

If I remember the regs correctly, before the newest update you had to have the minimum required for the board. Now it's just three members. They basically made it easier for the small units that don't have enough people.
Logged
Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,678

« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2017, 09:26:13 AM »

In the previous regulation, the Personnel Officer, Professional Development Officer, and a third member designed by the commander were part of the Promotion Board. The chairperson had to be of equal or grater grade than the member being considered for promotion.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,082

« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 10:16:37 AM »

Correct, up to Nov 2016, the PDO and Personnel Officer were mandated with PDO as chair of the board, unless she was not of equal or higher
grade then the preference was to appoint a temp chair at the proper grade.

Previous:
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf
CAPR 35-5 Jan 2014 Page 9

"a. The commander at each echelon will appoint a promotion board to consider all
promotion and demotion actions and make recommendations to the promoting authority. The
promotion board will consist of at least three officers as follows: personnel officer, professional
development officer and one additional officer designated by the commander. The chairman of
the promotion board should be equal to or higher than the highest grade being recommended.
Appointment to promotion boards will be reflected by appropriate personnel authorizations. The
board is responsible for considering all pertinent information pertaining to promotion actions and
ensuring that the member being considered for promotion meets the minimum eligibility
requirements. The promotion board should meet frequently enough to assure timely
consideration of recommendations received. The action by the promotion board will be in the
form of a recommendation to the approving authority as to whether the promotion or demotion
should be approved or disapproved."



Current
http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/R035_005_489E25C089E93.pdf

CAPR 35-5 Nov 2016 Page 9

"1.10. Promotion Boards.
1.10.1. The commander at each echelon will appoint a promotion board to consider all promotion and
demotion actions and make recommendations to the promoting authority. The promotion board will
consist of at least three members. The chairman of the promotion board should be equal to or higher
than the highest grade being recommended. If an NCO promotion is under consideration, recommend at
least one senior NCO be on the board. Appointment to promotion boards will be reflected by appropriate
personnel authorizations. The board is responsible for considering all pertinent information pertaining to
promotion actions and ensuring that the member being considered for promotion meets the minimum
eligibility requirements. The promotion board should meet frequently enough to assure timely
consideration of recommendations received. The board may meet in person, telephonically or by
electronic means. The action by the promotion board will be in the form of a recommendation to the
approving authority as to whether the promotion or demotion should be approved or disapproved."
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 304

« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2017, 11:55:18 AM »

Thanks everyone.

I'm glad I'm not going nuts!!

I suppose there is no way to show what was deleted when regulations are changed? In my "outside of CAP life" [Can there be such a thing????] Deletions would be indicated on the revised document with a strikethrough.

Oh well. At least I know the answer.

Thanks again!
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 758

« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2017, 12:23:15 PM »

Thanks everyone.

I'm glad I'm not going nuts!!

I suppose there is no way to show what was deleted when regulations are changed? In my "outside of CAP life" [Can there be such a thing????] Deletions would be indicated on the revised document with a strikethrough.

Oh well. At least I know the answer.

Thanks again!
Eclipse actual has links to both the current and previous versions in his post above.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 933

« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2017, 12:53:38 AM »

I recommend your unit establish a "flexible" Standard Operating Procedure, or in-house guidance of some degree (whether that be a memo or any other tangible form of communicating intent), to set up a review board structure within the senior program. I typically recommend that the "Chair Person" of a review board be at least two levels (duty positions, not grade) above the person seeking to promote. I am partial to not having a lateral officer on the review committee.

For example:
A Communications Officer is a 2d Lt seeking 1st Lt. If possible, attempt to have the Commander, Deputy Commander for Seniors, and a Captain.

This may be more difficult in smaller units, like my own. Then again, I am generally not a part of the senior review process for membership nor promotions as a Cadet Programs officer.

Just my two cents. Be flexible and serve the purpose of the board. The regs do offer that flexibility since the last revision, as pointed out prior.
Logged
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,796
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2017, 02:15:36 AM »

 The Unit Commander should never be on a committe, unless his/her presence is mandated by regulation or there are not enough active members to make a quorum.
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,824

« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2017, 01:31:41 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,885

« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2017, 01:38:20 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,685
Unit: of issue

« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2017, 02:11:25 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...

If the squadron is that small, then the unit should be deactivated.

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,082

« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 03:02:42 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...

If the squadron is that small, then the unit should be deactivated.

I wouldn't necessarily go that far, there are plenty of situations where perfectly fine staff members
would have no business being on a dec or promo board, starting with being too...hm...the word...much of
a huge PITA.

We all know CAP people who are wearing a chest full of "shake and takes" that they had no problem getting themselves,
but who dole out the same with a microscale Pasteur pipette. At the unit level, especially, the assumption should always be
"Yes, unless a good justification for 'no'...", and if the justification is legit (i.e. never shows, sold cadets on eBay and faild to
report the revenue, etc.), then it's not going to be a surprise.

I seriously doubt there is a unit in the country that has enough members that a promo board is even necessary.
If the CC doesn't know you enough to make that decision, you're not around enough to justify the promotion.

Further, considering a CC can ignore the board's recommendation anyway, it's another colossal waste of everyone's
precious time, and another unnecessary affectation of the military affiliation, especially for adults.

I agree in a perfect world, CC's and CDs should have better uses of their time, but that's just not the reality for most CAP units.

In regards to any accusations of nepotism, if you're running a transparent program, it's going to be a non-issue, and if you're
not, telling a member "the committee voted against your promo" isn't going to make things "better", if anything it will
just cause suspicion and a rift in the unit.

Also Personnel is an obsolete job and should be retired.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,824

« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2017, 05:00:07 PM »

I'll disagree on the value of promotion boards; I've been on a few where the results could have gone either way. The CC was really looking for input from trusted staff to confirm or disprove his assessment.

The default position was promote, unless there was a compelling reason not to - no egos involved. On the rare occasion when denial was recommended, the board gave specific reasons and a suggested course of action to get the member successfully promoted.

This is exactly what a good CC should expect from his staff.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 933

« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 06:45:05 PM »

At the unit level, especially, the assumption should always be
"Yes, unless a good justification for 'no'...", and if the justification is legit (i.e. never shows, sold cadets on eBay and faild to
report the revenue
, etc.), then it's not going to be a surprise.

 :clap: Stock prices are down these days...


Quote
I seriously doubt there is a unit in the country that has enough members that a promo board is even necessary.
If the CC doesn't know you enough to make that decision, you're not around enough to justify the promotion.

Too true. In most cases, we know, for cadet boards since that's more my gig, if a cadet is going to have an easy time in the board or walk out not so happy before walking in. But we owe them the courtesy and respect of holding a formal board, not just because it's a regulatory requirement, but because we can propose those talking points and get their perspective and answers to our questions. If every assumption I make is my go-to for deciding if someone promotes or not, then I'm not doing my job of asking questions and obtaining responses, and actually considering those responses. This applies to seniors just the same.

But you can generally tell, and we all know it, if we really think someone is ready (or even competent in their abilities). Someone who doesn't show for 6 months, or shows up sporadically, maybe doesn't have the maturity or respect for that grade (again, this applies to seniors). What do you get if you go from 1st Lt to Captain? Not a heck of a lot, right? Prestige? Okay, well, if that's what you get, it still needs to be earned. It's not that difficult to qualify, but you have to do the work (or at least participate) to get there---for the unit, not just taking the tests. "Do you serve this unit in your assigned capacity to the extent we would expect a 1st Lt transitioning to Captain?"

Quote
Further, considering a CC can ignore the board's recommendation anyway, it's another colossal waste of everyone's
precious time, and another unnecessary affectation of the military affiliation, especially for adults.

While this is true, I think it is important to remind a Commander like this that their authority to make that determination comes with the responsibility of listening to his/her staff to help make that determination. I know that my Commander would go along with whatever recommendation I have for cadets or my own senior staff. Maybe it's part trust, maybe it's part nerves. But I absolutely listen to my staff and I don't just want, but need, their input on this decision. Maybe there's something I'm missing up top that I need to have someone explain to me or bring to light. "Hey, so and so seems like a great officer!" "Sir, do you know how much work he has dumped on everyone else?" "I had no idea." "Obviously you aren't pay attention." That is not a situation I want to walk into. Conversely, this also comes with the responsibility of explaining when you disagree that "Okay, I've received your feedback; however, I think.....this is my decision and what I'm going with, but I appreciate your input." Easy enough.

Quote
I agree in a perfect world, CC's and CDs should have better uses of their time, but that's just not the reality for most CAP units.

I do think formal boards can be a waste of time in some cases. I would agree that having some of those "automatic" promotions speed up the process. Or you could also have that discussion behind the scenes without the person sitting there in front of you.

Quote
In regards to any accusations of nepotism, if you're running a transparent program, it's going to be a non-issue, and if you're
not, telling a member "the committee voted against your promo" isn't going to make things "better", if anything it will
just cause suspicion and a rift in the unit.

You'll always have some people that think that, and in some cases, it's unfortunately true. But this does come with having that transparency. If you present that transparency, and you maintain consistency over time, it's not as big of an issue to deny a promotion (or approve one that some people are opposed to). What you do not want to do is promote someone "to be nice." It's a performance review, not a gift.


The default position was promote, unless there was a compelling reason not to - no egos involved. On the rare occasion when denial was recommended, the board gave specific reasons and a suggested course of action to get the member successfully promoted.

This is by far one of the greatest things I've heard regarding promotions. It's absolutely true, and essential.

Don't deny someone a promotion and tell them to figure it out. Provide constructive feedback, highlighting the positives and the negatives, and talk with that person about building a corrective action plan to address deficiencies. Your responsibility is to present this, not just walk away once you've made your decision. It is up to the member to put in the effort to make that improvement, but you should be mentoring him/her and commending their effort if they do. That's all part of the learning process, especially when most of our learning and development comes at the cost of OJT.
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2017, 03:45:58 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...

If the squadron is that small, then the unit should be deactivated.


The minimum numbers are 3 SMs commander, safety, finance. It's not an ideal situation, but it is what most units may start with.
Logged
kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 758

« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2017, 04:03:46 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...

If the squadron is that small, then the unit should be deactivated.


The minimum numbers are 3 SMs commander, safety, finance. It's not an ideal situation, but it is what most units may start with.

There is no requirement for anything other than the board having 3 members.  I would argue against having the CC on the board since the purpose of any board (promotion, awards, etc) is it advise the CC.
Logged
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2017, 06:45:40 PM »

If the purpose of the committee is to make a recommendation to the CC, having the CC sit on the committee makes absolutely no sense.

Unless you're in a small squadron and you need the CC to be the third member...

If the squadron is that small, then the unit should be deactivated.


The minimum numbers are 3 SMs commander, safety, finance. It's not an ideal situation, but it is what most units may start with.

There is no requirement for anything other than the board having 3 members.  I would argue against having the CC on the board since the purpose of any board (promotion, awards, etc) is it advise the CC.


I understand that, and also agree that having CC on the board defeat the purpose. I'm just countering the claim that a unit with 3 SMs should not be a unit, since a unit has to have at least 15 members, with 3SMs as listed as the bare bones minimum.
Logged
Pages: [1] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Who is required to be on a Senior Member Promotion Board?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.087 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me