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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Time to Update Ground Team Gear
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Author Topic: Time to Update Ground Team Gear  (Read 1940 times)
Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2017, 10:45:47 PM »

THis from the most current version of the GTL / GTM refence guide:
http://static1.squarespace.com/static/52f294c6e4b0bede38b4d35c/t/5328c05be4b091b8426afc2b/1395179611175/GTRT.pdf

"Y2K: Many older computer systems or certain software packages used on them will not work after
the year when we move into the next millenium (sic). If it is critical to your operations, choose software
packages that will work. Most packages designed from 1997 on have been year 2000 compliant, or
have fixes in development, so there isn't much to worry about if you buy something now. But it is
better to check than to be caught later, unable to meet your operational commitments."


Bearing in mind Google Maps wasn't a "thing" until 2005...

As I said earlier, no one can argue the text isn't outdated, based on the rest of the world, however despite the
rhetoric, and a couple non-scalable exceptions, the mission literally hasn't changed, either, which is a big part of
the problem with doing any updates to the curriculum or expectations.

CAP has to create it's doctrine and decide what it's missions are now before it can change the training or
update equipment lists, etc.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

micapguy
Recruit

Posts: 7
Unit: MIWG

« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 10:49:33 PM »

Quote
The Zip-Lock bag will tear up before the 6 months are over. It has happened to me. Several times.

Are you carrying the Ziploc bag attached to your pistol belt, exposed to brush and foliage, as you run through a briar? My Ziploc bags is are sufficiently stowed inside my pack and have miraculously stayed intact for months. Or perhaps you store them in a pouch that is full of open knife blades. In any case, this sounds more akin to a gear organization issue than an inadequacy on the part of ziplock's product. Don't get mad. Get Glad. Glad resealable bags that is. And then get a better pouch for that pistol belt to store them in. Like a pouch that doesn't also have exposed edges of an orienteering compass that have been filed into razors...

Quote
Gear list already takes this into account, it specifically states the 72-hour is for a mission not a sortie. Six meals in a bag again required not for a sortie but for the total mission. Implying there is the possibility of several sorties

Now this makes sense


Quote
CAP has to create it's doctrine and decide what it's missions are now before it can change the training or
update equipment lists, etc.

You are 100% correct. But the 21st century of SAR has arrived awhile ago. Now is the time of CAPs national ES people to start doing that. What are we stilling waiting for? Soon drones will rule the sky and there will be no downed pilots to search for.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 10:54:24 PM by micapguy » Logged
Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,391

« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2017, 11:03:28 PM »

My Zip-Lock bags have always been stored inside my mission bags.

And they always break.

Within 6 months!

 ;)
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stillamarine
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2017, 11:18:05 PM »

Everyone talking about MREs like they are food. When forced to eat only those for weeks, months, at a time I am convinced they are not. Personally I'll find a different option. Of course things are a little different now I. I hear they taste better. I do miss the 4 fingers of death.

(having said that living in Bama I do have a couple cases for natural disasters, but I also have other food options that will be used prior
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2017, 11:24:05 PM »

if someone is doing a commissary run and I can get them cheap enough, I like to have a case around -
I'll keep one or two in the bike with the jet boil for a range day when I was teaching or jst for a long ride.

They are handy and stable.

As said above, it's a novelty for CAP members, something else all together when they are your only food source.

They aren't required, or even encouraged, just one option that many members use because of their proximity to them
and the USAF.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 11:27:19 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,391

« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2017, 11:24:59 PM »

By your own admission, you are biased against them.

"When forced to eat only those..."

If I had been forced to eat anything for weeks and months, I would also say anything against them.

When I was a teen growing up, my family used to eat lots and lots of meat loaf. Seldom steaks. When I became an adult, I used to eat a lot of steak. I cannot eat steak much nowadays because my dental health is not that good. But I hate meat loaf and seldom eat it!

So to me, MREs are still food! Some, at least...

 :)


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sarmed1
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2017, 09:21:52 PM »

The gear list is a minimum of recommended items based on lowest common denominator.  If your area of operations has more stringent needs then adapt you gear to fit that.  For exapmple.  The state that I grew up in had a large mission role in missing person search.  The 911 mission concept was regularly employed in that some squadrons/groups were listed as the primary SAR resource after the local fire dept or police dept was called (pre NOC speedy approval days) To this day even though that mission has decreased many teams still choose gear much more adaptable to extended wilderness and weather-tastic operations.  Another state that I lived in had very little SAR mission but had some a very robust DR mission, some of their specialty teams were required to and actual utilized in the 72+hours of self sufficient for food, water and shelter.

The point being the gear list is designed to meet the most common needs across the national spectrum of potential operations.  Sure not everyone is going to need everything on there, and in some cases you will need more than whats on there, and you may have a need for things that arent even on there.

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
USACAP
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« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2017, 12:35:15 PM »

Yep.
Agree...

No argument there, pretty much for everyone involved, even the most experienced.
The UDF equipment list is really all most members need for CAP missions.
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umpirecali
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2017, 11:20:35 AM »

When I teach new ground team members, I teach them the list is a guide and was created to be universal.  I mention this list must work from Alaska to Arizona, Iowa, Florida, and Vermont.  All have different climates, typical missions, protocols, and considerations.  As for MREs or other prepared foods, I do not encourage any of them.  I encourage quick easy foods, jerky, GORP, other dehydrated foods like pineapples and bananas, small snacks that don't melt (ie nothing with chocolate in the summer), and cliff bars and the like.  Around here, around here most sorties are 2-4 hours and 6 on the outside time.  So, most items in the pack list are for the extreme emergency (ie, someone slips off the trail and gets a mechanical injury and the team must shelter in place.  In the mountains of Virginia, there is some treacherous terrain just off the trail.  We had an F-15 crash a few years ago and it took some teams 3 hours just to hike from the ICP to the search area.  Also once a find is made, it can sometimes be hours before you are relieved. 

I speak from a fair amount of experience as I responded to 11 missing person searches in 2016 alone.  The OP mentioned trash bags.  Trash bags are a great multi-use item.  They can be used as an emergency poncho, water collection, a quick shelter, clue collection (sometimes base will instruct us to bag the clue and return to base), and to protect a clue (such as a set of footprints until a tracking team can arrive).  I personally have never used a trash bag in a real-world scenario, but I keep three in my pack, they weigh nothing and roll up to nothing, so in the bottom of my pack they stay.  I have also never used my webbing, ropes, and carabiners either (required by VDEM), but in the bottom of my pack they stay.

Someone mentioned matches. I teach a cheap lighter, a ferro rod as a backup and some quick fire starting material like fatwood, trioxane, combustible material covered in wax, etc.   This is important for two reasons, personal warmth and warming a patient.  If I encounter a hypothermic patient, and it will take an evac team 2 hours to get there I am going to make a warming fire.  Same goes for personal warmth.  I know of three finds within the last three months, where the team who made the finds had to wait hours until relief arrived.  The most recent was a plane crash in the mountains.  The team made the find around 5pm, they took their notes, secure the scene and waited to be relieved.  The sun set and the temperature dropped, the waited well outside the crash area and made a fire while they waited.  These are things we are trained and empowered to do in VA.  Now if you are in the Kansas or Florida wing, where things are flat and you are almost always near a road, that might not be needed.   Semper Gumby.
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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TIger
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2017, 10:06:58 AM »

You can build a very good 24hr pack off of Wish.com for about $35-40.   I suggested the squadron just buy 6 matching 24hr packs and keep them in the van/trailer for use.   That way, you know they are always built and always ready.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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Dragoon
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 10:43:42 AM »

As the guy who came up with original gear list, more than 20 years ago, just thought I'd weigh in.

1.  Yup, it's definitely overdue for a relook.

2.  I personally never liked the terms "24 hour gear" and "72 hour gear."  I don't want to spend 24 hours without my sleeping stuff (yeah, I'm a wuss).  The terms we suggested were "field gear" and "base gear."   They got voted down by others on the ES committee.

3. The discussion on this thread reflects a lot of the original thoughts that went in to the list.

            The gear list was supposed to be the lowest common denominator - Wings could always add requirements. 
            The focus was on car-camping, not backpacking. 
            Cost was always big concern, especially since most GT folks are cadets. 
            The "survival" gear aspect was always limited to keeping you uncomfortable but alive for about a day - we should be able to find you by then. 
            Uniform appearance, within reason, was a good thing.
            Communal gear is bad, as you might mix and match personnel to form teams, and it's hard to split up a single 6 man tent between two teams.  Each person had to have all the stuff they needed.

  If you didn't start from these premises, you'd have a very different gear list.


Overall, I'm happy that the curriculum has lasted as long as it has - but I'm not sure if that's because it was well written, or just that CAP just hasn't gotten around to rewriting it   :)

           

« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 09:39:43 PM by Dragoon » Logged
Jaison009
Seasoned Member

Posts: 262
Unit: SW-AR-040

« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 10:06:00 PM »

Heater meals (https://heatermeals.com) might be another option for those interested in alternatives. We use them in DR settings when kitchens cannot be set up in an expedient manner
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2017, 11:44:59 PM »

Why do ground team members keep talking about "heater meals?"

Heater meals are not the best choice either.

If you read from the containers: "portions: 3 portions." or similar. "Portions inside: 3" are the smallest I have seen. Do you carry a refrigerator with you to save any uneaten portion? No. Then you have to throw away any uneaten portions or overeat.

You are also not carrying "complete meals" as required by regulations.

The only way this would work is if you have a pretty stable ground team composed of the same people sortie after sortie, mission after mission, where you agree to share meals. You would carry the main entree, another the vegies, another fruits.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 11:56:26 PM »

If you read from the containers: "portions: 3 portions." or similar. "Portions inside: 3" are the smallest I have seen. Do you carry a refrigerator with you to save any uneaten portion? No. Then you have to throw away any uneaten portions or overeat.

Anyone who thinks a heater meal or an MRE is more then one "portion", hasn't fed an adolescent lately, not to mention one
doing physical activity in the field.

A teenage cadet can inhale an entire large pizza and ask what's next.

And MRE's are only about 1250 calories - not the 5000+ you hear about in wives tales.  3 a day for the average adult, just
like any other food, especially with physical activity.
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Luis R. Ramos
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Posts: 2,391

« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2017, 12:14:24 AM »

I was looking at them as alternatives.

Then I read the nutrition label. Your answer just tells me you have not.

I had five or six Mountain House. All said "servings per package" but again, they were not complete meals since they would have only one choice. They would be beef without veggies. Or chicken without desert. and so on.

MREs are more complete meals. If you want a cadet to eat three MREs in one sitting, that is fine but as GTL I would not train any cadet to take heater meals that are not complete nutrition.
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Jaison009
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2017, 12:28:28 AM »

Heater Meal entrees and Heater Meal Plus are a one serving meal with a 12 oz entree instead of the standard 8.  Are they the best choice? No. Can they meet the requirement and still provide what is needed for the short time a team will operate? Yes, they can. The plus even come with beverage, water pouch, and snacks.

Why do ground team members keep talking about "heater meals?"

Heater meals are not the best choice either.

If you read from the containers: "portions: 3 portions." or similar. "Portions inside: 3" are the smallest I have seen. Do you carry a refrigerator with you to save any uneaten portion? No. Then you have to throw away any uneaten portions or overeat.

You are also not carrying "complete meals" as required by regulations.

The only way this would work is if you have a pretty stable ground team composed of the same people sortie after sortie, mission after mission, where you agree to share meals. You would carry the main entree, another the vegies, another fruits.
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docrameous
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« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2017, 06:24:48 PM »

2.  I personally never liked the terms "24 hour gear" and "72 hour gear."  I don't want to spend 24 hours without my sleeping stuff (yeah, I'm a wuss).  The terms we suggested were "field gear" and "base gear."   They got voted down by others on the ES committee.

NASAR's 2014 24 hour pack list sort of heads in this direction, and I prefer CAP's 24/72 field/base gear arrangement. NASAR's 24 hour list has a 2400 cubic inch pack, foam pad, an extra set of clothes and optionally includes a steno stove, sewing kit and folding saw which is starting to sound like you are setting up for a camp site.

To me, a 24 hour bag should be something light which you can run with all day and have the means to spend an extra long operational period, including a night out.  So the king of the day is light, light, light and I suspect the first night I won't get much sleep anyhow.  So I carry a net hammock and I got my fly/tarp that I can string up to catch a bit of sleep.  If I am going to be out longer, I will want to reconnect up with my main pack for toiletries, tent, sleeping bag, etc. etc.

However... this may be conditioned by the searches in our area.  Others may feel the risk of needing to set up a more substantial camping arrangement out of a 24 hour pack is of greater value and possibility.  Not here and so I'd rather not carry the weight.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 07:03:39 PM by docrameous » Logged
sardak
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« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2017, 09:31:02 PM »

In 2016 NASAR dropped the specific requirements for a SAR pack including size and equipment carried, and the pack check is no longer a requirement to pass SAR Tech II. The intro to the NASAR Consolidated Pack Guide states:
NASAR recognizes that SAR responders operate in extremely varied environments. In consideration of local environments, legislation, circumstances, or team standards, NASAR has compiled this Consolidated Pack Guide. Using the ASTM F2209 standard as its foundation, this guide is the single publication that documents all NASAR program pack recommendations. This guide supersedes all previous pack standards and guidance.

The SAR Tech II test states Station #3: 24-hour Pack: This used to be a required station - it isn't any longer.  Candidates should carry the basic survival and safety supplies for their environment and the items to complete the stations.

Unfortunately NASAR still uses the term 24 hour pack in the new guidance  The SAR 24-hour pack is designed to prepare a sole searcher on a field assignment for up to 24 hours with no outside logistical or re-supply assistance. The searcher is expected to wear or carry (layers) clothes/uniform appropriate for the response environment, circumstances, duration and task. It is also expected that the searcher will have the supplies necessary to assist and support an injured victim (or injured searcher) for a portion of the 24-hour assignment.

ASTM Standard F2209 has been around since before CAP revamped the ES program, and was recommended to them when the curriculum and regs were revised. F2209 doesn't use the term 24 hour pack, nor does it specify particular equipment. It instead includes a list of items compiled from a sampling of equipment lists from SAR organizations that were identified as "minimum, basic, 24 hour, hasty, or similar terms." The standard states that the agency or organization will determine its required equipment.

One of the notes to the F2209 list reads "[Items which] Appeared on more extended mission or base kit lists than basic or 24 hour lists." Among these items are foam pads, tents, cook kits, utensils and sewing kits.

Mike
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 09:35:12 PM by sardak » Logged
docrameous
Recruit

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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2017, 03:41:18 PM »

This was excellent to know... I had missed this update. 
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oweng_01
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2017, 07:20:44 PM »

[darn] Cadet you must suck if you cant start a fire with 12 matches ;D ;D. Learn to use flint and steel then come talk matches are a breeze to use. I will agree that the pay phone part is outdated but the MRE's are good for inexperienced cadets. It states you just need two meals not two MRE's. If you know what you need for your two meals based on your self don't worry about the MRE's.


                                                                                    --Local SAR Guy
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Time to Update Ground Team Gear
 


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