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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2017, 04:22:18 PM »

Well, now there is a promotion mechanism for CAP NCOs.  Has the OP's question been answered, or as it has been previously stated, is this just another uniform thread...?
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,788

« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2017, 04:38:25 PM »

Thanks... I'm a little curious because I'm a SSgt now and I used to be a 1LT with about a year TIG... depending on the memo, perhaps I can get TSgt and be close to getting MSgt.
Here's the full 23 FEB 17 memo with the advanced promotion requirements.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2CzkgrZ6hyMN1BQX1VMWW9Hczg/view?usp=drivesdk


Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

POOF! I could be an E8! Or I could've had a V8...Just like magic...
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
SARDOC
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,429

« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2017, 10:04:42 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 10,574

« Reply #63 on: April 06, 2017, 12:42:11 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Майор Хаткевич
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Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,030
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2017, 01:41:23 PM »

I really still don't see the point of restricting CAP NCO's to Former/Current Military members.  We have members who have no interest in Command or being Wing/Group Staff.  Why can't we use the NCO grades to recognize seniority or other qualifications (Other than PD) like ES and Cadet Programs?
Part and Parcel of the long range plan for the NCO corps.

Restricting it to current and former NCOs is just one of the baby steps.


I mean...the baby step has been going long enough that some of our cadets who joined the military when the plan was announced could qualify for NCO rank soon...
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,703

« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2017, 01:55:43 PM »

The challenge is that the "Problem" for which this is purportedly a "solution" doesn't have a beacon attached
so no one can find it.

A "hasty search" was implemented to try and find it, but by mid afternoon the first day, the one GTL that showed up
had to drive his kid to baseball, and the only aircraft available busted it's 100 hour.

Mission base was shut down with handshakes and songs of "great job, lessons learned", and the rest of the budget was
spent on patches.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

sploding
Newbie

Posts: 4
Unit: KEK-000

« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2017, 05:35:21 AM »

I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2017, 07:21:43 AM »

Or, we're part of the "Total Force" and should act like it;  not the Navy, Army, or Marines.

Both valid opinions.
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Adam B
AlphaSigOU
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Posts: 2,142
Unit: SER-AL-001

The Kwaj Drafter!
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2017, 08:17:17 AM »

Call a Air Force CMSgt 'Chief' and he'll be happy; have a sailor call an AF MSgt and SMSgt 'Chief' and the Air Force Chiefs' Mafia takes up arms and cries jihad at the misuse of their hallowed title.

Anyone calling a CPO, SCPO and MCPO 'Petty Officer' will have the Goat Locker issue cutlasses to the Chiefs and start swinging at the besmirching of their hallowed name.

The Army doesn't give a rat's ass... they still call 'em Sergeant or 'Sarnmajor'. But let them call all Army warrant officers 'Chief' and the Goat Locker and the Chief's Mafia  go to the mattresses!

(I keed, I keed!)

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Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
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Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,703

« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2017, 10:10:48 AM »

With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

It's CAP culture, good, bad, or otherwise.  The failure to respect that, including how it evolved, is the core of the issue.

Join and sit quietly until you figure out how to log into eServices, what the real role of the CP is, and how to enter a task into OPS Quals.
Being an E-9 or an O-6 has very little intrinsic value if all you can do is correct people on the way you used to do things in an unrelated organization.

This is another area where the military affectation, decoupled from proper and consistent member training and expectations of performance,
hurts CAP way more then any value it brings to the table.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 169

« Reply #70 on: August 07, 2017, 03:38:39 PM »

I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

If you prefer the military approach so much, here you go: You're a cadet.  Get back in your lane. 
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #71 on: August 07, 2017, 03:58:36 PM »


It's CAP culture, good, bad, or otherwise.  The failure to respect that, including how it evolved, is the core of the issue.

Join and sit quietly until you figure out how to log into eServices, what the real role of the CP is, and how to enter a task into OPS Quals.
Being an E-9 or an O-6 has very little intrinsic value if all you can do is correct people on the way you used to do things in an unrelated organization.

This is another area where the military affectation, decoupled from proper and consistent member training and expectations of performance,
hurts CAP way more then any value it brings to the table.

Yes! Can we now get beyond this nonsense and go back to discussion of uniform issues....... >:D
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Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 718

« Reply #72 on: August 07, 2017, 04:00:19 PM »

I had the pleasure of serving with a CAP Chief and ask him some of the very same questions.  I received a much better answer from him than anyone else. 

As follows it was basically broken down that one of the ideas behind the NCO corp is to try and keep the military aspect within CAP.  It has been seen by too many that the officer corp is way to corporate. 

The NCO corp allows for a basis of and maintaining a military concept within the org. 

There is current nothing that a NCO in CAP can do that is currently not being fulfilled by CAP officers.  Especially CAP officers who are either current active duty or retired military NCOs. 

The program is still being worked on but long story short the basis is to keep and maintain a form of military culture residing within the NCO Corp.

Now I may have misunderstood and possible misquote the fine Chief as I had many sidebars with him over the course of the activity.  But the explanation he gave was far more in depth than anything received here or from NHQ. 

SW Chief if you want to do what you claim then you need to learn and adapt to the AF culture and leave the Navyisms at the door.



With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

Sounds like you'd be happier elsewhere, perhaps you should think about concentrating your efforts with the Sea Cadets
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,935
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2017, 04:51:01 PM »

With all due respect I have no problem with the "navyisms" especially since most CAP officers I've met at every level (wing,region,national) have never served in the military . While I do believe that members of all services should try to coexist in CAP there's nothing wrong with keeping some of the traditions of your service , especially if you've served long enough to get a retirement . Also I believe that a CPO should not be forced to adapt to "Air Force Culture" and abandon some of their own branch's culture by a person who most likely has never spent a day in the Air Force or any military branch for that matter, I have no issue with CAP officers in general but I will admit that if there is one type of person who I find insufferable. It is the senior member who was "too smart" or "too educated" to enlist but "not a good fit" in any branch to become
an officer yet still acts like they are AD Air Force and shove "real Air Force culture" on everyone around them despite all their "culture" being from Air Force meme pages and that one buddy in the ANG who's "never going to join cap so don't even bother trying to find them".

Oh, boy.

First of all, "With all due respect" isn't usually taken like you might think. It has come to mean that you, in fact, have little respect for who you are talking to. Keep that in mind in the future.

Regarding the Navy vs. AF culture thing, suck it up, buttercup. I spent 48 years living in some form of active duty Navy household, both as a dependent (child and adult), and 21 years of my own active duty. I've also been in CAP almost that long. Yes, there are similarities, but they are mostly different.

When you are doing Navy stuff, you do it all the way. The same goes for CAP. Use the knowledge from each to your benefit in the other program, but maintain the distinction. Telling someone, "We don't do it that way in [the other group]," is an almost instant way to get an adverse label attached to you. Been there, done that. Learn your lesson early. It will benefit you throughout life.

As for the CPO crack up above, that's bovine excrement. Any good CPO, for that matter, senior PO, should have the sense to understand the differences, and adapt to the different rules and culture. There are several Navy folks in my local unit who have no difficulty with shifting modes between USN and CAP. They aren't "abandoning" anything. They fit into the current role, and move along.

Lastly, I find your observations of CAP officers to be flawed. I have seen very few that come anywhere close to what you have described, and most of them have been overage HS students who haven't mastered basic "adulting". Maybe you should brush up on your adulting.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Storm Chaser
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,673

« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2017, 06:41:37 AM »

What are some good selling points and benefits to switching to having stripes?

None that I've been able to see other that providing an option for former military NCOs, who don't wish to be CAP officers. There's no real program as of yet other than a way to promote CAP NCOs, which wasn't available in the past.

The greatest limitation is that NCOs can't assume command of a unit. That limits the pool of potential qualified candidates, although CAP will allow an NCO to become an officer and then revert back to his/her previous NCO grade (personally, I'm not crazy about that). The NCO positions currently available are vague and it's up to the commander to define their roles and responsibilities.

In my personal opinion, NCO members who are successful are so because of what they do and not because they're wearing stripes instead of bars or oak leaves. At the end, it's just an option for members, with no extra benefits or responsibilities.
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Adam B
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: 28-037

« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2017, 09:28:42 AM »

It's just another option.
I believe the restriction on command was taken out a while ago, and is no longer the case. There is one position, "Squadron NCO," that is actually specific to NCOs; there aren't any well defined responsibilities, though. 

There just seems to be some kind of thought that having more members wearing stripes will make CAP stronger (but only if there are 4 or more; can't have any pesky airman running about), but without any meaningful difference between Officers and NCOs, the whole idea is a little absurd. I believe that in the long-term, CAP will eventually split the PD program and create separate tracks for each path, one focusing on command and management, the other on more direct leadership. 
Until they do that, it's all a uniform issue.

Lastly, I find your observations of CAP officers to be flawed. I have seen very few that come anywhere close to what you have described, and most of them have been overage HS students who haven't mastered basic "adulting". Maybe you should brush up on your adulting.

"Adulting"

It used to be that an adult acting like a child was unusual, and people would call out the behavior as "childish".
Has acting like a child become such the norm that we actually call out those times that an adult behaves as an adult?

I know it's not your term SarDragon, my wife and her friends use it frequently. It's just always struck me as odd that we now have a term for glimpses of maturity.
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Adam B
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,762

« Reply #76 on: August 09, 2017, 09:26:14 PM »

You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,703

« Reply #77 on: August 09, 2017, 10:46:23 PM »

You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

NHQ has been ignoring the bright line prohibition regarding NCOs serving as Commanders basically forever, going
back to the days when the NCO grades didn't even show in eServices.  That there >are< NCOs serving in those
roles doesn't mean they are supposed to be, by policy, regulation or the rhetoric of an NCO's supposed role (in the military or CAP).

The prohibition was reiterated in the 2013 announcements, and still exists in the updated KB articles, though I believe it
was removed from the regulations themselves.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11266960.htm

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2465/~/civil-air-patrol-noncommissioned-officer-corps

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/976/0/filename/CAP+NCO+news+release.pdf

"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels squadron, group, wing, region or national
except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

also:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg326798#msg326798

Importantly (white paper, page 2):
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416

CAWG doesn't read its own press releases, apparently:
http://cawgcap.org/cawghistory/files/original/9c7967e23ae90aaf8f855aceb4afd881.pdf

The idea that an experienced, competent willing CAP member would be barred from Command because he's an "NCO"
is self-defeating, and unworkable in CAP's current climate of shrinking charters and lack of willing members to serve as such,
however the fact that NHQ ignores it's own self-imposed policies regarding what the duties of an "NCO" should be within CAP
just shows how unworkable the idea is, and how unwilling NHQ is to hold bright lines when faced with no other alternatives.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 11:03:42 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,762

« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2017, 11:51:35 PM »

You guys keep saying that CAP NCO's can't command a unit, but, you might want to tell that to National HQ, PACR and CAWG. Because the current commander of Big Bear Composite Sq 6750 in Big Bear Lake, CA is a CAP CMSgt. And has been for over a year.

NHQ has been ignoring the bright line prohibition regarding NCOs serving as Commanders basically forever, going
back to the days when the NCO grades didn't even show in eServices.  That there >are< NCOs serving in those
roles doesn't mean they are supposed to be, by policy, regulation or the rhetoric of an NCO's supposed role (in the military or CAP).

The prohibition was reiterated in the 2013 announcements, and still exists in the updated KB articles, though I believe it
was removed from the regulations themselves.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11266960.htm

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/2465/~/civil-air-patrol-noncommissioned-officer-corps

and

http://capnhq.custhelp.com/ci/fattach/get/976/0/filename/CAP+NCO+news+release.pdf

"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels squadron, group, wing, region or national
except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

also:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=18078.msg326798#msg326798

Importantly (white paper, page 2):
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=19311.msg356416#msg356416

CAWG doesn't read its own press releases, apparently:
http://cawgcap.org/cawghistory/files/original/9c7967e23ae90aaf8f855aceb4afd881.pdf

The idea that an experienced, competent willing CAP member would be barred from Command because he's an "NCO"
is self-defeating, and unworkable in CAP's current climate of shrinking charters and lack of willing members to serve as such,
however the fact that NHQ ignores it's own self-imposed policies regarding what the duties of an "NCO" should be within CAP
just shows how unworkable the idea is, and how unwilling NHQ is to hold bright lines when faced with no other alternatives.

It's called they needed a new commander and he was the guy who volunteered. Bingo! He's the NCO Commander, or should we call him Superintendent?
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Larry Mangum
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 649

« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2017, 09:44:27 AM »

CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

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Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
SWR-LA-966
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