Source for small (child size) blue flight suits?

[Spam]

Hi, Xray.


First, I agree that recruits quitting within a month or two of joining is a common problem. Part of that is that adolescents are by their very nature immature and many of them lack the very structural maturity to stick with a commitment that our program can help them to develop, despite our best efforts in laying out a program that requires weekly effort year round.  One way to reduce that risk is by following the program to set forth our program expectations (and manage theirs in return) up front: if there are no extenuating circumstances (family issues, grades) and a cadet starts fading away after only a few weeks, perhaps we've done a poor job in accepting them as members in the first place. In the rush to sell a cool program, we and they didn't choose the match wisely. A longer recruiting period may be called for (cf the cohort recruiting approach - they have to wait to join, and must really WANT to be in).


Secondly, there is no one size fits all (pun not intended here) solution for all socioeconomic circumstances for cadets.  "CAP: Come And Pay" can be a cruel joke to a cadet, or to entire units, who cant afford to do ES, or NCSAs, with their peers. Yet, one of the best things we can do for cadets in helping them grow (where ever they're starting in life) is to help them learn to help themselves. Yes, there are barriers in life (costs of entry to volunteer activities are one easy, easy, low impact, low risk example to work with as a teaching opportunity). Blowing those barriers up and removing them for everyone (rather than arming them with tools to overcome the obstacles) is almost a guaranteed path to end up with our current crop of sheltered snowflake college students you read of in the media, who cant tolerate differences of opinion, and need safe spaces, emotional therapy pets, crayons for stress relief, and cupcake therapy, rather than growing into self reliant, tough, confident young adults.


Thirdly, how do we give them a hand up without a hand out.  I have in previous posts mentioned PT uniforms (mentioned page 8 in P52-18). I have not, yet, employed the sophistry to outfit new recruits in a ten buck unit T shirt and black shorts and sneakers and call it a "uniform" suitable for O Flights, because R39-1 is silent on this (even in 5.1.1.4. T-Shirt). However, especially since this is the approved uniform for glider O flights, I could see this as a viable option in some socioeconomic circumstances, and I did advise one Group/CC here in GAWG to inquire with the Wing/CC last year about approving this option for a new start unit with a number of less wealthy cadets. I view a critical part of this or any uniform for O flights concept to be requiring each cadet to have some "skin in the game"; a ten buck t shirt is a far lower cost of entry, I'd argue, than any other uniform options, IF, you could secure Wing/CC permissions.


There. Now I'll get darts from all sides...


V/r
Spam

[kwe1009]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

[xray328]

Thanks Spam.

I guess I just want to do what I/we can. I have no problem spending $250 on a few flight suits and jackets if need be to get the cadets in the air.  I don't want to give anyone a handout, these would be squadron items that we can grab and let them fly with and return to stock for the next cadet. And it's not just an economic issue, so let's not get distracted with that being the entire issue. Flying is what makes us different than the boy scouts, etc, kids that come to our program have an interest in aviation and a majority want to fly. When a kid comes in wanting to fly and has to wait through the three meeting rule, then for uniforms to come in, then for Vanguard to mail them tapes, then for mom/dad/grandma to sew them on (I know they should learn that themselves) then wait for the next o-ride to come around...we're talking months of waiting. And sometimes all the waiting makes them loose interest.  I know this isn't every cadet and I know some join for other reasons etc. But it's a problem I see that exists and I just want to do what I can to fix it, that's all. Is it a huge problem? No.  But again, if there's something we can do to make the program better, why not?  It's a regulation were talking about here that really serves no purpose other than "because we said so".  I'm not for going against the rules, but this seems like an over site.  Apparently work has already been done to address it so I'm crossing my fingers.  Again, if you guys aren't having this problem, great, glad to hear it.  But we and some others we know are and just looking for a fix and hope that those in power can help.

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Lots of truth here. I spent more on Scout unis for me and my 7 year old then I did for the first couple of years I was in CAP.

I live in a school district that is classed as 40% of population living below the poverty line. My first unit was in Camden NJ. Not familiar? It makes the top 5 of poorest and most murdery cities every year. My point? Even though the families had a hard time funding some of the things their cadets needed, we as a unit found ways. Look for grants. Partner with sponsoring organizations. hold monthly fund raisers. There are ways. We would issue out uniforms to the cadets. They belonged to the unit. If a cadet left, we got the uni back. If they didn't turn it in, we went and got it. (Rarely happened). Use your imaginations.

[xray328]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Lots of truth here. I spent more on Scout unis for me and my 7 year old then I did for the first couple of years I was in CAP.

I live in a school district that is classed as 40% of population living below the poverty line. My first unit was in Camden NJ. Not familiar? It makes the top 5 of poorest and most murdery cities every year. My point? Even though the families had a hard time funding some of the things their cadets needed, we as a unit found ways. Look for grants. Partner with sponsoring organizations. hold monthly fund raisers. There are ways. We would issue out uniforms to the cadets. They belonged to the unit. If a cadet left, we got the uni back. If they didn't turn it in, we went and got it. (Rarely happened). Use your imaginations.

I think that's what were trying to do here, but again it's not just an economic issue. The goal is to get cadets from membership to o-rides faster.

[Toad1168]

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Layer the coat underneath the flight suit.  It won't be visible, but they may look like the Staypuff marshmallow man   

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP.  Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

[Eclipse]

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy. 

A complete "Class A", maybe, but hardly required - many meetings participants, some or all are in civvies or Scout T-Shirts and the
adherence to "standards", even in regards to insignia, is somewhat "lax".  YMMV of course based on unit.

There are no activities that I'm aware of that a cadet would be precluded because they didn't have a particular uniform,
outerwear is always civilian, no particular special footwear, etc., etc..

There's also only "one" uniform for everything - T-shirts for knockabouts, the more formal variant for everything else.
So you might be able to compare one BSA kit vs. one CAP kit and say it's mre expensive, but you can't compare the MBU
of the orgs in any way.  BSA is a t-shirt and shorts.

Official BSA uniform price list:https://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/5104-101117_UniformPriceList_2015_UpdateFNL.pdf

Doing some quick scratch pad, I come up with ~$105 for what is required, to include $10 for a t-shirt, the more expensive
short sleeve shirt, and the convertible pants.  A lot of Scouts live their entire lives in jeans, which would bring the cost down to
$70 or less. 

I have two on the Eagle track (through no fault of my own) and my wife is a unit Treasurer. We and the unit
spends plenty, but not near what a similar family I have in my CAP unit spends on just clothing.

[kwe1009]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.



No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP.  Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Those organizations often do have sponsors to help defray the costs but the cost to the member is still usually higher than being a CAP member.  Businesses donate to CAP units too.  My squadron has received at least $1500 from Wal-Mart and other companies each of the last few years.  This enables us to better help cadets who are less financially sound than others.  We have purchased uniforms and other items to help cadets hit the ground running.

There is money out there, you just have to ask and if one company declines then just go to the next.  It takes some time and persistence but it is worth it in the end.  VFW, American Legion, DAR, etc are great sources of donations too.  Contact your local chapter/post and ask if you could do a color guard presentation at one of their meetings.  These groups love to see young people showing respect.  Give a short talk about how CAP benefits the community and the youth.  Even if the group doesn't donate, there could be a member in the audience that has a business that will donate.

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy. 

A complete "Class A", maybe, but hardly required - many meetings participants, some or all are in civvies or Scout T-Shirts and the
adherence to "standards", even in regards to insignia, is somewhat "lax".  YMMV of course based on unit.

There are no activities that I'm aware of that a cadet would be precluded because they didn't have a particular uniform,
outerwear is always civilian, no particular special footwear, etc., etc..

There's also only "one" uniform for everything - T-shirts for knockabouts, the more formal variant for everything else.
So you might be able to compare one BSA kit vs. one CAP kit and say it's mre expensive, but you can't compare the MBU
of the orgs in any way.  BSA is a t-shirt and shorts.

I have two on the Eagle track (through no fault of my own) and my wife is a unit Treasurer. We and the unit
spends plenty, but not near what a similar family I have in my CAP unit spends on just clothing.

If you are spending less on scouting then you are lucky.  The price I listed was for a full class A BSA uniform which is required and must be worn at least during a scoutmaster conference for rank advancement and whenever they traveled.  I know that some troops are more lax about that but my son's troop took uniforms very seriously.  There was also the almost $100 membership fee each year and a minimum amount of popcorn that had to be sold or bought by the parent.  His summer camp was more than double the cost of encampment was was 1 day shorter.

I'm not going to go back and forth about which organization is cheaper.  I can tell you from my experience that CAP was cheaper for me, my wife and daughter combined than it was for my son to be in BSA.  I am only talking about dues and required items.  The only required uniform for cadets is the blues and they are given a $100 voucher to help cover the cost.

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

[Eclipse]

I'm not going to go back and forth about which organization is cheaper.  I can tell you from my experience that CAP was cheaper for me, my wife and daughter combined than it was for my son to be in BSA. I am only talking about dues and required items. 

So am I - the only required uniform is "none", even for Eagle review boards, and certainly nothing is required otherwise.

To my knowledge the only time adult leaders have to be in uniform is National Jamboree's.

There are no activities which which preclude a scout from participating based on their clothing, certainly nothing
which are considered core components in the way CAP bars much of anything but unit meetings (and even then)
for cadets.

Local unit laxity or adherence is irrelevant to what is required, just like CAP.

The only required uniform for cadets is the blues and they are given a $100 voucher to help cover the cost.

While technically true, it is not practically true, and the $100 doesn't even cover the cost of the MBU, not to mention
it doesn't come until after Curry, which means no anything other then meetings until then.

A big part of my issue is that the organization is bleeding members, has a first-year cadet churn in the 40+% range,
and indicates flying in the first 90 days is both a delimiter of retention and all but required by regulation yet precludes
those same members from doing anything based on clothing.

[Spaceman3750]

Throwing up our hands and saying "some people just can't afford it" is easy and convenient; but it essentially abandons a huge section of underprivileged individuals who (anecdotally) may need the positive influence of CAP significantly more than the son of Mr and Mrs Got-rocks. That doesn't change the operational reality that stuff costs money and local units exist solely at the whim of local benevolence, but if we want to do more than pay lip service to serving and developing the next generation (all of it) then we need to start solving more problems and abdicating less.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled uniform argument.

[xray328]

"A big part of my issue is that the organization is bleeding members, has a first-year cadet churn in the 40+% range,
and indicates flying in the first 90 days is both a delimiter of retention and all but required by regulation yet precludes
those same members from doing anything based on clothing."

This.  :clap:

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

[Eclipse]

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Generally, the minute Spacely hears "USAF", they tell CAP to take a walk to Cogswell and beg over there.

Meeting space and operational costs should be in the top ten, if not top 5 discussion items regarding retention a
and organizational viability, yet these issues are rarely discussed.

This is the kind of thing "Total Force" should be helping CAP with. Escort missions are nice, members need to
have a decent place to meet.  A lot, if not all the funding support recently provided has been around cadets,
which is fine, but those cadets can't be cadets without the total structure of local units.

[THRAWN]

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Generally, the minute Spacely hears "USAF", they tell CAP to take a walk to Cogswell and beg over there.

Then go see Cogswell. I'll stipulate that it isn't easy to establish a good relationship and funding stream, but you have to start somewhere. The worst they can say is no.

[Eclipse]

Then go see Cogswell. I'll stipulate that it isn't easy to establish a good relationship and funding stream, but you have to start somewhere. The worst they can say is no.

Agreed - at some point you just run out of hours and initiative arguing about the latest -9 form or begging for an incubator
to give more time to fundraising.

All part of the spiral, especially at smaller units.

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Thrawn,

  you are not getting my point.  Yes anyone can go (provided they have permission from the Wing for fundraising) and solicit funds.  The structure of the little league and scouting of my youth was that a unit wasn't stood up without a corporate sponsor which helped defray costs.  That is not the current structure of CAP, not saying it couldn't be, or that it may happen on an individual unit basis.  That's the only comparison I was making

[Eclipse]

you are not getting my point.  Yes anyone can go (provided they have permission from the Wing for fundraising) and solicit funds.  The structure of the little league and scouting of my youth was that a unit wasn't stood up without a corporate sponsor which helped defray costs.  That is not the current structure of CAP, not saying it couldn't be, or that it may happen on an individual unit basis.  That's the only comparison I was making

That's not the BSA of today, either.

Yes, units require a sponsoring organization, but in money cases it's just a church, school, or park district which provides no
support beyond a meeting place (and sometimes not even that).  My kids' unit met at a local church which basically
tolerated them because they always had, but the minute the door opened for them to be gone, they were, and
no financial support was ever provided.

For every unit that has a benefactor like the Lion's Club, there are plenty that have none.