Source for small (child size) blue flight suits?

[xray328]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

[Alaric]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

[xray328]

O-flights, gets them in the air faster rather than waiting for uniforms. O-flights get them excited about the program.

[stillamarine]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

[Eclipse]

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

Cadets are not allowed to wear the corporate combinations for any reason unless they are over 18.

The idea about shared flightsuits is a good one, just get green.

[foo]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

A) That doesn't seem to be the case for cadets:

1.2.3.2. Cadets will wear the USAF-style uniforms as outlined in this manual as a key component of their cadet experience. However, cadets over age 18 who are not eligible to wear the USAF-style uniforms due to not meeting weight standards are authorized to wear all Corporate-style uniform combinations, except the Corporate Working Uniform since it does not allow for wear of rank insignia.

B) Maybe:

8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

[xray328]

I'll let the uniform experts weigh in here.  I'm only against the green because it doesn't allow any flexibility with cold weather gear. I guess in the grand scheme it only adds $50 for a green flight jacket plus patches etc.

[Alaric]

Does anyone have a source for kid size navy blue flight suits? Rothco has them, just not in navy blue.  Trying to stay with the blue so cadets can wear civilian cold weather gear with them, thanks.

A cadet would only be able to wear the blue flight suit if they were over 18 (a requirement for aircrew) and not in height weight requirements.  Why would you need child size flight suits

A) You don't have to be out of height and weight requirements to wear the corporate FDU
B) Cadets can wear flight suits during flight ops such as O-Rides

One can argue whether FDUs are covered in 1.2.3.2 however you need to have (or have had) an aeronautical rating unless your wing commander has designated otherwise


8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

[THRAWN]

Wear these :http://militarythermals.com/ and the outerwear issue is moot.

[foo]

One can argue whether FDUs are covered in 1.2.3.2 ...

Where in that reg is there room for argument? It's talking about USAF-style vs. Corporate-style in general terms. Clearly cadets can't wear Corporate-style unless they're over 18 and not within height/weight to wear USAF-style.

[xray328]

I've got a cadet that's 4' 2" and 68 lbs...does that count? That's clearly outside the USAF standard [emoji4]


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[Eclipse]

So clearly as written, cadets under 18 are prohibited from wearing any FDU unless their respective Wing CC commander has explicitly
authorized it, which in turn would need at minimum a memo to that effect as a supplement would not be necessary since the
reg itself calls out for the allowance.

Another inexplicable change that makes things harder for members and commanders alike, and because it wasn't
called out in a highlight, has probably left any number of cadets and O-Pilots s in violation of 39-1, 60-1, and 52-7, among others.

This is almost certainly because whomever was trying to make a point about only wearing zoombags while involved in
aviation activities (which is appropriate), never even considered or was aware that cadets wear them for O-rides.

One more thing to be pushed up the chain, considered, hashed, discussed, possibly denied, etc., etc., more wasted time,
no member or organizational benefit, potentially even less cadets flying.

This also means members can't wear a flight suit during initial training, another unintended consequence of rushing
regulations (yeah manual, whatever) out the door at the last minute to meet an artificial deadline without peer and public review.

Well.

Done.

[xray328]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets. Then I see encampment photos being posted all over social media with blatant uniform violations (especially cold weather gear) that nobody says a word about.  I'm assuming Wing CC's are approving that since it's being posted on the Wing Facebook pages (or training groups of Wings Facebook pages)?


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[RogueLeader]

I'm assuming Wing CC's are approving that since it's being posted on the Wing Facebook pages (or training groups of Wings Facebook pages)?

I'd be amazed that Wing/CC's are aware of it at all.  I've found that most are worried about more issues than that (not that I'm disagreeing with your assertion.)  Most Encampment photo's are being uploaded by the PAO's of the Activity, and not doing their due diligence in ensuring the standards are met.  YMMV.

Also as to your assertion of:

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

Some of the issues are put upon us by the Air Force, as you know, are the final check of sanity on our uniform choices.  The other is the difference in what we consider as "best" for cadets is between the scope of the picture that people look at, or to put another way: the short term/long term goals of the program.  The only thing I can say to that reasonable minds can, will, and most certainly do.  If the program is in such a need of change, you should work to be in a position tho change it.

[xray328]

It's the selective enforcement I have an issue with. That and there being more folks looking to tell you why you can't do something than to help figure out a way around it.


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[RogueLeader]

It's the selective enforcement I have an issue with. That and there being more folks looking to tell you why you can't do something than to help figure out a way around it.

Understood.  When it comes to selective enforcement, the phrase that comes to mind is: How much trouble is <insert X action> going to get me in?"  IE, rewards vs consequences. The answer to that has way to many variables to spell out.  For example, is taking a minor butt chewing worth it, likely so; is it worth getting a demotion or terminated from CAP, most likely not; and then there is everything in between.  As there many different places that a person can draw the line of where the risk/reward line is how we get the huge selective enforcement that we see.  I'm not making a judgement call on anybody, but that is where we stand.

The way around is to change the regulation to allow the change that you want.  CAPM 39-1 spells out the procedure to change it.  You can also petition the Wing CC to allow flight suits for cadets on O-rides.  Unfortunately there aren't any other options- other than break the regulations and see where the risk/reward falls for you.

(Please note that I'm not advocating the deliberate violation of any regulation.)

[Alaric]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

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How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit. 

[xray328]

So tired of walls being put up so we can't do what's best for the cadets.

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How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit.

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



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[Eclipse]

How are walls being put up?  Either Blues or BDUs can be worn, and are used way more often than a flight suit.  A flight suit is an optional uniform, which you cannot require the purchase of, and either green or blue are an out of pocket cost that far exceeds their benefit.  I've been a fully qualified aircrew member since 2010 and have never worn a flight suit.

You can't require the purchase of BDUs, either, but clearly they are required.

A tenant of the CP, and all but required pre regulation, is to get cadets in the air within 90 days.  Outerwear notwithstanding,
they can't fly out of uniform, and don't get a uniform now until well after they get their Curry, right there is a "wall" for some cadets and units.

We're trying to fly cadets who joined around Christmas in the next week or two - the uniform issue is a real impediment to putting them
in a plane.  Creative minds can find ways, but Unit CC's shouldn't have to be "creative". Flight academies and gliders can fly in
civilian clothes or t-shirts, why not new cadets?

[kwe1009]

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



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Depending on the size of the cadet and the FDU, you can put on a lot of layers under the FDU to stay warm.  For just getting new cadets in the air, a flight suit is probably the worst option though.  In addition to the cost of the flight suit you have to add another $10 or so for the leather patch that is only used on the FDU. 

ABU/BDU should be a quick and easy purchase and something the cadets will wear way more than a flight suit.  We have even had cadets borrow another cadet's BDUs in order to fly.  My squadron always purchased the name tapes for new cadets so they just had to buy the uniform (if we didn't have their size in inventory) and get the name tapes sewn on.  That normally only took a week or two.

[xray328]

Plan was to buy a blank one with just CAP AND CADET on it and use a white on black label maker


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[RogueLeader]

Plan was to buy a blank one with just CAP AND CADET on it and use a white on black label maker.

Another option is get the Wing/CC to authorize the Flight suit for o-rides for cadets, buy a few flight suits in close sizes (they don't have to be precise and can wear layers underneath to keep warm., and have the cadet buy a leather name patch, and just swap that cadets name patch onto the flight suit when they need to.  Cheapest option that meets all the requirements by regulation.  Vanguard won't make a leather name patch without the first and last name, and costs $9.70 plus shipping.

[xray328]

Plan was to buy a blank one with just CAP AND CADET on it and use a white on black label maker.

Another option is get the Wing/CC to authorize the Flight suit for o-rides for cadets, buy a few flight suits in close sizes (they don't have to be precise and can wear layers underneath to keep warm., and have the cadet buy a leather name patch, and just swap that cadets name patch onto the flight suit when they need to.  Cheapest option that meets all the requirements by regulation.  Vanguard won't make a leather name patch without the first and last name, and costs $9.70 plus shipping.

I just entered spaces in the text field and and appears that it'll take it..




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[RogueLeader]

When I accidentally had just my last name, they called me on it.  I won't say that they will for you, just my past experience.

[Eclipse]

Plan was to buy a blank one with just CAP AND CADET on it and use a white on black label maker.

Another option is get the Wing/CC to authorize the Flight suit for o-rides for cadets, buy a few flight suits in close sizes (they don't have to be precise and can wear layers underneath to keep warm., and have the cadet buy a leather name patch, and just swap that cadets name patch onto the flight suit when they need to.  Cheapest option that meets all the requirements by regulation.  Vanguard won't make a leather name patch without the first and last name, and costs $9.70 plus shipping.

This was / is our plan, including picking up some headsets which are also an issue.

Generic bags with generic nametag - maybe we'll get some generic nametapes, too.  At least we can get them flying.

[xray328]

If I only knew somebody who knows somebody...


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[Eclipse]

If I only knew somebody who knows somebody...

Well, at least for us the request is in process.

[RogueLeader]

This was / is our plan, including picking up some headsets which are also an issue.

Generic bags with generic nametag - maybe we'll get some generic nametapes, too.  At least we can get them flying.

To be honest, as 39-1 stipulates how the nametags and name tapes are to be done, having "generic" name tapes/patches are just as much as a violation as incorrect outerwear.  I'm not saying that I don't disagree with doing what we can do to get them in the air, just that we should be aware of what we are doing before we do it, and to own up to it when we're wrong.

[Eclipse]

At some point, when you have competing priorities, you have to do the best you can with what you have.

If the pedantic hat is on, you could just use "last" & "first".

"8.2.4.1. Nametags. Black leather nametags for FDU will be 2x4 inches in size and worn
over the left breast pocket. Nametag will include name (first and last), rank (all cadets will use "Cadet")
and letters "CAP", and may include up to two badges. .."

[RogueLeader]

At some point, when you have competing priorities, you have to do the best you can with what you have.

If the pedantic hat is on, you could just use "last" & "first".

"8.2.4.1. Nametags. Black leather nametags for FDU will be 2x4 inches in size and worn
over the left breast pocket. Nametag will include name (first and last), rank (all cadets will use "Cadet")
and letters "CAP", and may include up to two badges. .."

Not disagreeing, but as is factual, when you do that- you are deliberately violating a regulation (and manual), which IIRC, you seem to bash a certain SMSgt for on what used to be a fairly regular basis..

[xray328]

Would the label maker idea not work here assuming Vanguard would sell you a blank one?


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[RogueLeader]

Would the label maker idea not work here assuming Vanguard would sell you a blank one?

The difficulty would be the "embossed in silver" as stated in 8.2.4.1 

I do like the thought though.

[xray328]

https://www.nametags4u.com/designer/leather/?pid=1320


Solves the blank name tag issue. I wasn't aware of the "embossed in silver" part though.

[Storm Chaser]

Why not just follow the regulation instead of complaining because it doesn't match what you want to do. Cadets can buy uniforms as soon as they join. Waiting a few weeks will not disengage a cadet who's really interested in CAP.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Buy an uniform... That is fine and dandy for some cadets, but you are forgetting that some of our cadets are one-parent family who may be on welfare. Who are seeing CAP as a possibility of getting training that will take them out of their current life.

[xray328]

Why not just follow the regulation instead of complaining because it doesn't match what you want to do. Cadets can buy uniforms as soon as they join. Waiting a few weeks will not disengage a cadet who's really interested in CAP.

Cadets can't always buy uniforms as soon as they join. Some cadets have to wait several weeks and loose interest in the mean time. We've all had cadets that join, come to a few meetings and never come back.  I really think, especially for the cadets waiting on uniforms, o-flights get them involved and excited about the program and the sooner we do that the better. I think that's especially true for cadets in underprivileged areas. 

Please don't start in with the "come and pay" argument, or the "this isn't for everyone" deal.


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[Alaric]

Why not just follow the regulation instead of complaining because it doesn't match what you want to do. Cadets can buy uniforms as soon as they join. Waiting a few weeks will not disengage a cadet who's really interested in CAP.

Cadets can't always buy uniforms as soon as they join. Some cadets have to wait several weeks and loose interest in the mean time. We've all had cadets that join, come to a few meetings and never come back.  I really think, especially for the cadets waiting on uniforms, o-flights get them involved and excited about the program and the sooner we do that the better. I think that's especially true for cadets in underprivileged areas. 

Please don't start in with the "come and pay" argument, or the "this isn't for everyone" deal.


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If you (and your unit) feel that way, then do some fundraising and put money aside to buy uniforms for cadets when they join or have a reserve of uniforms they can borrow so they can go fly (they'll still need to buy nametag/tapes).  You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family.  That's no different than a myriad of other activities that exist and have existed since I was a kid at least.  Families have to do what is right for them within their budgets, CAP is not going to be within everyones budget and unless the units want to start fundraising to bring people into the organization and paying their way, that's life.

[xray328]

So we start down that road anyway...[emoji19]


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[Alaric]

So we start down that road...[emoji19]


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Reality bites

[xray328]

We're way apart on how we view things Alaric, let's respectfully leave it at that.


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[Spam]

Hi, Xray.


First, I agree that recruits quitting within a month or two of joining is a common problem. Part of that is that adolescents are by their very nature immature and many of them lack the very structural maturity to stick with a commitment that our program can help them to develop, despite our best efforts in laying out a program that requires weekly effort year round.  One way to reduce that risk is by following the program to set forth our program expectations (and manage theirs in return) up front: if there are no extenuating circumstances (family issues, grades) and a cadet starts fading away after only a few weeks, perhaps we've done a poor job in accepting them as members in the first place. In the rush to sell a cool program, we and they didn't choose the match wisely. A longer recruiting period may be called for (cf the cohort recruiting approach - they have to wait to join, and must really WANT to be in).


Secondly, there is no one size fits all (pun not intended here) solution for all socioeconomic circumstances for cadets.  "CAP: Come And Pay" can be a cruel joke to a cadet, or to entire units, who cant afford to do ES, or NCSAs, with their peers. Yet, one of the best things we can do for cadets in helping them grow (where ever they're starting in life) is to help them learn to help themselves. Yes, there are barriers in life (costs of entry to volunteer activities are one easy, easy, low impact, low risk example to work with as a teaching opportunity). Blowing those barriers up and removing them for everyone (rather than arming them with tools to overcome the obstacles) is almost a guaranteed path to end up with our current crop of sheltered snowflake college students you read of in the media, who cant tolerate differences of opinion, and need safe spaces, emotional therapy pets, crayons for stress relief, and cupcake therapy, rather than growing into self reliant, tough, confident young adults.


Thirdly, how do we give them a hand up without a hand out.  I have in previous posts mentioned PT uniforms (mentioned page 8 in P52-18). I have not, yet, employed the sophistry to outfit new recruits in a ten buck unit T shirt and black shorts and sneakers and call it a "uniform" suitable for O Flights, because R39-1 is silent on this (even in 5.1.1.4. T-Shirt). However, especially since this is the approved uniform for glider O flights, I could see this as a viable option in some socioeconomic circumstances, and I did advise one Group/CC here in GAWG to inquire with the Wing/CC last year about approving this option for a new start unit with a number of less wealthy cadets. I view a critical part of this or any uniform for O flights concept to be requiring each cadet to have some "skin in the game"; a ten buck t shirt is a far lower cost of entry, I'd argue, than any other uniform options, IF, you could secure Wing/CC permissions.


There. Now I'll get darts from all sides...


V/r
Spam

[kwe1009]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

[xray328]

Thanks Spam.

I guess I just want to do what I/we can. I have no problem spending $250 on a few flight suits and jackets if need be to get the cadets in the air.  I don't want to give anyone a handout, these would be squadron items that we can grab and let them fly with and return to stock for the next cadet. And it's not just an economic issue, so let's not get distracted with that being the entire issue. Flying is what makes us different than the boy scouts, etc, kids that come to our program have an interest in aviation and a majority want to fly. When a kid comes in wanting to fly and has to wait through the three meeting rule, then for uniforms to come in, then for Vanguard to mail them tapes, then for mom/dad/grandma to sew them on (I know they should learn that themselves) then wait for the next o-ride to come around...we're talking months of waiting. And sometimes all the waiting makes them loose interest.  I know this isn't every cadet and I know some join for other reasons etc. But it's a problem I see that exists and I just want to do what I can to fix it, that's all. Is it a huge problem? No.  But again, if there's something we can do to make the program better, why not?  It's a regulation were talking about here that really serves no purpose other than "because we said so".  I'm not for going against the rules, but this seems like an over site.  Apparently work has already been done to address it so I'm crossing my fingers.  Again, if you guys aren't having this problem, great, glad to hear it.  But we and some others we know are and just looking for a fix and hope that those in power can help.

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Lots of truth here. I spent more on Scout unis for me and my 7 year old then I did for the first couple of years I was in CAP.

I live in a school district that is classed as 40% of population living below the poverty line. My first unit was in Camden NJ. Not familiar? It makes the top 5 of poorest and most murdery cities every year. My point? Even though the families had a hard time funding some of the things their cadets needed, we as a unit found ways. Look for grants. Partner with sponsoring organizations. hold monthly fund raisers. There are ways. We would issue out uniforms to the cadets. They belonged to the unit. If a cadet left, we got the uni back. If they didn't turn it in, we went and got it. (Rarely happened). Use your imaginations.

[xray328]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Lots of truth here. I spent more on Scout unis for me and my 7 year old then I did for the first couple of years I was in CAP.

I live in a school district that is classed as 40% of population living below the poverty line. My first unit was in Camden NJ. Not familiar? It makes the top 5 of poorest and most murdery cities every year. My point? Even though the families had a hard time funding some of the things their cadets needed, we as a unit found ways. Look for grants. Partner with sponsoring organizations. hold monthly fund raisers. There are ways. We would issue out uniforms to the cadets. They belonged to the unit. If a cadet left, we got the uni back. If they didn't turn it in, we went and got it. (Rarely happened). Use your imaginations.

I think that's what were trying to do here, but again it's not just an economic issue. The goal is to get cadets from membership to o-rides faster.

[Toad1168]

We need to get them flying asap after they join to help get them hooked. Cadets can't get an o-ride though until they have a uniform.  Ok, let's get them flight suits. Can't, they need to be warm and they can't wear civilian jackets with the af flight suits Ok, let's get the blue ones.  Can't, they aren't authorized.

You guys have made some great suggestions though that I'll follow up on, so thank you.



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Layer the coat underneath the flight suit.  It won't be visible, but they may look like the Staypuff marshmallow man   

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP.  Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

[Eclipse]

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy. 

A complete "Class A", maybe, but hardly required - many meetings participants, some or all are in civvies or Scout T-Shirts and the
adherence to "standards", even in regards to insignia, is somewhat "lax".  YMMV of course based on unit.

There are no activities that I'm aware of that a cadet would be precluded because they didn't have a particular uniform,
outerwear is always civilian, no particular special footwear, etc., etc..

There's also only "one" uniform for everything - T-shirts for knockabouts, the more formal variant for everything else.
So you might be able to compare one BSA kit vs. one CAP kit and say it's mre expensive, but you can't compare the MBU
of the orgs in any way.  BSA is a t-shirt and shorts.

Official BSA uniform price list:https://www.scoutstuff.org/media/content/docs/pdfs/5104-101117_UniformPriceList_2015_UpdateFNL.pdf

Doing some quick scratch pad, I come up with ~$105 for what is required, to include $10 for a t-shirt, the more expensive
short sleeve shirt, and the convertible pants.  A lot of Scouts live their entire lives in jeans, which would bring the cost down to
$70 or less. 

I have two on the Eagle track (through no fault of my own) and my wife is a unit Treasurer. We and the unit
spends plenty, but not near what a similar family I have in my CAP unit spends on just clothing.

[kwe1009]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.



No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP.  Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Those organizations often do have sponsors to help defray the costs but the cost to the member is still usually higher than being a CAP member.  Businesses donate to CAP units too.  My squadron has received at least $1500 from Wal-Mart and other companies each of the last few years.  This enables us to better help cadets who are less financially sound than others.  We have purchased uniforms and other items to help cadets hit the ground running.

There is money out there, you just have to ask and if one company declines then just go to the next.  It takes some time and persistence but it is worth it in the end.  VFW, American Legion, DAR, etc are great sources of donations too.  Contact your local chapter/post and ask if you could do a color guard presentation at one of their meetings.  These groups love to see young people showing respect.  Give a short talk about how CAP benefits the community and the youth.  Even if the group doesn't donate, there could be a member in the audience that has a business that will donate.

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy. 

A complete "Class A", maybe, but hardly required - many meetings participants, some or all are in civvies or Scout T-Shirts and the
adherence to "standards", even in regards to insignia, is somewhat "lax".  YMMV of course based on unit.

There are no activities that I'm aware of that a cadet would be precluded because they didn't have a particular uniform,
outerwear is always civilian, no particular special footwear, etc., etc..

There's also only "one" uniform for everything - T-shirts for knockabouts, the more formal variant for everything else.
So you might be able to compare one BSA kit vs. one CAP kit and say it's mre expensive, but you can't compare the MBU
of the orgs in any way.  BSA is a t-shirt and shorts.

I have two on the Eagle track (through no fault of my own) and my wife is a unit Treasurer. We and the unit
spends plenty, but not near what a similar family I have in my CAP unit spends on just clothing.

If you are spending less on scouting then you are lucky.  The price I listed was for a full class A BSA uniform which is required and must be worn at least during a scoutmaster conference for rank advancement and whenever they traveled.  I know that some troops are more lax about that but my son's troop took uniforms very seriously.  There was also the almost $100 membership fee each year and a minimum amount of popcorn that had to be sold or bought by the parent.  His summer camp was more than double the cost of encampment was was 1 day shorter.

I'm not going to go back and forth about which organization is cheaper.  I can tell you from my experience that CAP was cheaper for me, my wife and daughter combined than it was for my son to be in BSA.  I am only talking about dues and required items.  The only required uniform for cadets is the blues and they are given a $100 voucher to help cover the cost.

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

[Eclipse]

I'm not going to go back and forth about which organization is cheaper.  I can tell you from my experience that CAP was cheaper for me, my wife and daughter combined than it was for my son to be in BSA. I am only talking about dues and required items. 

So am I - the only required uniform is "none", even for Eagle review boards, and certainly nothing is required otherwise.

To my knowledge the only time adult leaders have to be in uniform is National Jamboree's.

There are no activities which which preclude a scout from participating based on their clothing, certainly nothing
which are considered core components in the way CAP bars much of anything but unit meetings (and even then)
for cadets.

Local unit laxity or adherence is irrelevant to what is required, just like CAP.

The only required uniform for cadets is the blues and they are given a $100 voucher to help cover the cost.

While technically true, it is not practically true, and the $100 doesn't even cover the cost of the MBU, not to mention
it doesn't come until after Curry, which means no anything other then meetings until then.

A big part of my issue is that the organization is bleeding members, has a first-year cadet churn in the 40+% range,
and indicates flying in the first 90 days is both a delimiter of retention and all but required by regulation yet precludes
those same members from doing anything based on clothing.

[Spaceman3750]

Throwing up our hands and saying "some people just can't afford it" is easy and convenient; but it essentially abandons a huge section of underprivileged individuals who (anecdotally) may need the positive influence of CAP significantly more than the son of Mr and Mrs Got-rocks. That doesn't change the operational reality that stuff costs money and local units exist solely at the whim of local benevolence, but if we want to do more than pay lip service to serving and developing the next generation (all of it) then we need to start solving more problems and abdicating less.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled uniform argument.

[xray328]

"A big part of my issue is that the organization is bleeding members, has a first-year cadet churn in the 40+% range,
and indicates flying in the first 90 days is both a delimiter of retention and all but required by regulation yet precludes
those same members from doing anything based on clothing."

This.  :clap:

[THRAWN]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

[Eclipse]

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Generally, the minute Spacely hears "USAF", they tell CAP to take a walk to Cogswell and beg over there.

Meeting space and operational costs should be in the top ten, if not top 5 discussion items regarding retention a
and organizational viability, yet these issues are rarely discussed.

This is the kind of thing "Total Force" should be helping CAP with. Escort missions are nice, members need to
have a decent place to meet.  A lot, if not all the funding support recently provided has been around cadets,
which is fine, but those cadets can't be cadets without the total structure of local units.

[THRAWN]

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Generally, the minute Spacely hears "USAF", they tell CAP to take a walk to Cogswell and beg over there.

Then go see Cogswell. I'll stipulate that it isn't easy to establish a good relationship and funding stream, but you have to start somewhere. The worst they can say is no.

[Eclipse]

Then go see Cogswell. I'll stipulate that it isn't easy to establish a good relationship and funding stream, but you have to start somewhere. The worst they can say is no.

Agreed - at some point you just run out of hours and initiative arguing about the latest -9 form or begging for an incubator
to give more time to fundraising.

All part of the spiral, especially at smaller units.

[Alaric]

You may not like the argument, but CAP is a relatively expensive activity and is not going to be doable by every family. 

I would counter that and say CAP is probably the least expensive activity for youth.  The uniforms are certainly cheaper than BSA.  A complete Boy Scout uniform will run you over $150 (not including shoes/boots) and finding used ones it not very easy.  A new ABU or BDU uniform from VG is less than $100 plus the cadet will get most of the blue uniform for free once they get the Curry Award.  For my son his dues for BSA was twice what CAP charges too.

No CAP isn't cheap but when compared to similar programs it is a VERY good deal.

Not saying it isn't but all of these activities (Boy Scouts, Little League, CAP, etc) are not going to be doable by every family, and unlike Scouts and Little League (at least back when I was a member in the Bronx many years ago) CAP is not generally sponsored by a local business / organization.  When I was in Little League the business sponsoring the team helped defray costs, the same was true of the Boy Scout troop.  Don't know if they did it for the write off or just cause they were being nice, but that is not really an option for CAP. Its a hard but important lesson, we can't do everything we want to just because we want to do it activities have costs.

Why not? Have you asked them?

I am not talking about soliciting donations, I merely was pointing out that individual CAP units are not chartered with a "sponsoring" organization like troops and little league teams were when I was younger.  My little league team for instance was the Pintos sponsored by the Golden Dragon Chinese Restaurant

And again, why not? Off hand, I'm not sure of a policy, regulation, booklet or manual that prohibits this. Even existing units should be able to go to Spacely Sprockets, give a pitch and get a check. Might help to address some of the issues with funding uniforms at the local or wing level.

Thrawn,

  you are not getting my point.  Yes anyone can go (provided they have permission from the Wing for fundraising) and solicit funds.  The structure of the little league and scouting of my youth was that a unit wasn't stood up without a corporate sponsor which helped defray costs.  That is not the current structure of CAP, not saying it couldn't be, or that it may happen on an individual unit basis.  That's the only comparison I was making

[Eclipse]

you are not getting my point.  Yes anyone can go (provided they have permission from the Wing for fundraising) and solicit funds.  The structure of the little league and scouting of my youth was that a unit wasn't stood up without a corporate sponsor which helped defray costs.  That is not the current structure of CAP, not saying it couldn't be, or that it may happen on an individual unit basis.  That's the only comparison I was making

That's not the BSA of today, either.

Yes, units require a sponsoring organization, but in money cases it's just a church, school, or park district which provides no
support beyond a meeting place (and sometimes not even that).  My kids' unit met at a local church which basically
tolerated them because they always had, but the minute the door opened for them to be gone, they were, and
no financial support was ever provided.

For every unit that has a benefactor like the Lion's Club, there are plenty that have none.

[Alaric]

you are not getting my point.  Yes anyone can go (provided they have permission from the Wing for fundraising) and solicit funds.  The structure of the little league and scouting of my youth was that a unit wasn't stood up without a corporate sponsor which helped defray costs.  That is not the current structure of CAP, not saying it couldn't be, or that it may happen on an individual unit basis.  That's the only comparison I was making

That's not the BSA of today, either.

Yes, units require a sponsoring organization, but in money cases it's just a church, school, or park district which provides no
support beyond a meeting place (and sometimes not even that).  My kids' unit met at a local church which basically
tolerated them because they always had, but the minute the door opened for them to be gone, they were, and
no financial support was ever provided.

For every unit that has a benefactor like the Lion's Club, there are plenty that have none.

Okay, that's good to know.  My last contact with Scouting was when I was 15 and Little League I was 10

[Eclipse]

Okay, that's good to know.  My last contact with Scouting was when I was 15 and Little League I was 10

...with merit badge cards on little carved stone tablets.

Kidding aside, though, this particular thread isn't even about things that cost the members money, it's about o-rides
which are USAF funded.

Why >isn't< there a golf shirt or similar option for cadets, especially in their first quarter of membership?

Heck, a unit t-shirt or inexpensive golf shirt could be issued to a new member the day they joined, produced locally,
and even used as a fundraiser.

Use some of that magic VG tax to send one to the cadet the day their membership is approved - that becomes their
official uniform until they get their Curry.  Your Tango flights are instantly "uniform", they can fly or do anything
else immediately, and the real point of a uniform - "uniformity and organizational identity" is stressed immediately.

Done.

[Alaric]

Okay, that's good to know.  My last contact with Scouting was when I was 15 and Little League I was 10

...with merit badge cards on little carved stone tablets.

Kidding aside, though, this particular thread isn't even about things that cost the members money, it's about o-rides
which are USAF funded.

Why >isn't< there a golf shirt or similar option for cadets, especially in their first quarter of membership?

Heck, a unit t-shirt or inexpensive golf shirt could be issued to a new member the day they joined, produced locally,
and even used as a fundraiser.

Use some of that magic VG tax to send one to the cadet the day their membership is approved - that becomes their
official uniform until they get their Curry.  Your Tango flights are instantly "uniform", they can fly or do anything
else immediately, and the real point of a uniform - "uniformity and organizational identity" is stressed immediately.

Done.

Awesome send the proposal through the chain

[THRAWN]

Okay, that's good to know.  My last contact with Scouting was when I was 15 and Little League I was 10

...with merit badge cards on little carved stone tablets.

Kidding aside, though, this particular thread isn't even about things that cost the members money, it's about o-rides
which are USAF funded.

Why >isn't< there a golf shirt or similar option for cadets, especially in their first quarter of membership?

Heck, a unit t-shirt or inexpensive golf shirt could be issued to a new member the day they joined, produced locally,
and even used as a fundraiser.

Use some of that magic VG tax to send one to the cadet the day their membership is approved - that becomes their
official uniform until they get their Curry.  Your Tango flights are instantly "uniform", they can fly or do anything
else immediately, and the real point of a uniform - "uniformity and organizational identity" is stressed immediately.

Done.

Wan't this a thing? I remember there was a time before I had a uniform that the "new guy" uniform was a squadron t shirt and black pants. Might have been a local policy, but it got you engaged immediately while you got 39-1 compliant.

[xray328]

I thought this was a good idea to cut down on the cost of encampments as well but got shot down.  Some wings ask (suggest) that you bring three sets of uniforms. Gets pretty expensive for new members (blouse x 3, patches x 3 etc). Why can't they just wear an encampment t-shirt with BDU bottoms?  Still in a uniform, but saves parents some dough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

Wan't this a thing? I remember there was a time before I had a uniform that the "new guy" uniform was a squadron t shirt and black pants. Might have been a local policy, but it got you engaged immediately while you got 39-1 compliant.

Local policy and what most units >have< to do, but never codified in regulation which is why cadets can't participate outside the unit during those times
or fly.

[PHall]

I thought this was a good idea to cut down on the cost of encampments as well but got shot down.  Some wings ask (suggest) that you bring three sets of uniforms. Gets pretty expensive for new members (blouse x 3, patches x 3 etc). Why can't they just wear an encampment t-shirt with BDU bottoms?  Still in a uniform, but saves parents some dough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because a t-shirt with some BDU bottoms is NOT a complete uniform.
And from my experience at what's approaching 30 encampments in multiple wings, the encampments that require three sets of uniforms usually don't have easy access to laundry facilities.

[DakRadz]

Our answer to this issue is BDUs. If members already have them, great. If not, cheaper and more versatile than anything else.

Currently we are doing BDUs with dark blue tapes.

1st Lt Raduenz