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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Hawk Mountain Hate
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Author Topic: Hawk Mountain Hate  (Read 2563 times)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,594

« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2017, 11:31:55 AM »

^ For the same reasons that despite the fact that CAP has had an updated, standardized encampment curriculum for
3-5 years (depending on math), there are still activities which are partially or wholly unaware of the new standard,
ignore it completely, or at a minimum aren't held to that standard, and more then a few olde timers who insist on using
outdated terminology or training techniques out of misguided tradition or "iknowbetteritis".

Lack of oversight, lack of leadership, and lack of ramifications.

CAP is chock full of "traditions" which may have started with good intentions but for the wrong reasons, and / or which for
whatever cause have become obsolete or inappropriate as the organizaiton and time evolved.

Yet for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is,  "lack of manpower + lack of "up or out" a small number of
people continue to run many activities for decades because without them, the activity dies, and if those same people
are unwilling or unable to adapt, there you go.

In the disconnected world of 20 years ago, what happened at the Eval, stayed at the eval, so mistakes were not
turned into memes, and minor triumphs or benevolent interpretations of the regs were not sung on Valhalla.  Today it
all happens in real time, "revealing all the gins for all they are, good or bad."

With the latest rev of 39-1, NHQ had an opportunity to reel in the NASCAR uniforms and bring some semblance of
uniformity to the multiform.  That lasted until the lobbyist groups started making noise - watch this summer as the rest creeps
back in, coincidentally, just before a given activity, and the easy money is on berets being back on the ABU, at least for wear during the
activity itself, as a larger percentage of members are now wearing ABUs then last year (I'm guessing thanks in some part
to a Christmas cycle).
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

CAPLTC
Recruit

Posts: 29
Unit: MER

« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2017, 09:12:59 PM »

I have been to 6 summer Hawks and as many winter ones.
Have not seen any problems lately.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,015
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2017, 11:25:51 AM »

I have been to 6 summer Hawks and as many winter ones.
Have not seen any problems lately.


Those problems typically arose once they got back to their "non-ranger" home units.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 856
Unit: GA-001/CV

« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2017, 02:16:35 PM »

I have been to 6 summer Hawks and as many winter ones.
Have not seen any problems lately.


Those problems typically arose once they got back to their "non-ranger" home units.

Concur. That's when we tell them to take off their attitude (let alone the unauthorized tabs/hats/patches, which is the SURFACE issue).


Look: good, useful training to standards is valuable no matter the source, right? Gaining an appreciation of the fundamentals, the advanced concepts, and the recurrency training for a range of specialties is not the issue - never was, as long as the training is to the task/standards/conditions that we've all standardized on. There is an invaluable benefit, in fact, in "cross breeding" for vitality and strength by introducing new ideas into stale organizations, and in shaking up the local status quos by exchanging new Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTPS), to use the DoD terminology.


The problems, as Major Hatkevitch points out, arise when the newly minted graduates come home with an attitude of braggadocio (of whatever program - it could be a DoD basic military training course, an "A" course, an officer commissioning route, all the way back down to a humble CAP special activity).  When someone completes a one or two week course taught by SAR amateurs (and that would be ALL of our unpaid volunteer courses!!!!), and subsequently exhibits an attitude more consistent with a Tier 1 special ops soldier, then most of us call "BS" on that, and react negatively.


In realist terms - the hats/badges are not the central issue (never were, to those with an ops focus). The attitude is, from an ORM standpoint. The reason is, when we regain a member who truly believes that they've gone from being a member of a whopping two years two months experience into a super SAR soldier - and then expects to be anointed and obeyed as the local expert, despite their true skill set (born of not just education and training, but also experience) then we've introduced a dangerous unstable element into our local SAR/DR team. At least until we can calm them down and re-center their attitude.


My take:
We need to continue to send our people to NESA, Hawk, Pathfinder, and the other schools, and support those events with $/staff.
We need to continue to accept viewpoints from outside our own local area (again: Plato's allegory of the cave - look it up, cadets).
We need to continue to set the expectation that capability results from all 3 factors: education, training, and experience, plus equipment.
We need those activities to include a briefing to counter the hazardous "attitude" ORM effect post graduation.
Finally, we need local units to work with their patch wearers to channel their energies/attitude constructively (and rein in the attitudes).


Responsible DoD schools (e.g. HAVOC, Top Gun, Fighter Weps school) actually do include a discussion of the socio-psych impacts of returning to their home units as a patch wearer SME (subject matter expert), and how to avoid being a liability with an "attitude", and how to turn their expertise into being an asset. We should do the same, across the board.


V/r
Spam

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Jaison009
Seasoned Member

Posts: 263
Unit: SW-AR-040

« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2017, 07:02:51 PM »

Well said Spam

I have been to 6 summer Hawks and as many winter ones.
Have not seen any problems lately.


Those problems typically arose once they got back to their "non-ranger" home units.

Concur. That's when we tell them to take off their attitude (let alone the unauthorized tabs/hats/patches, which is the SURFACE issue).


Look: good, useful training to standards is valuable no matter the source, right? Gaining an appreciation of the fundamentals, the advanced concepts, and the recurrency training for a range of specialties is not the issue - never was, as long as the training is to the task/standards/conditions that we've all standardized on. There is an invaluable benefit, in fact, in "cross breeding" for vitality and strength by introducing new ideas into stale organizations, and in shaking up the local status quos by exchanging new Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTPS), to use the DoD terminology.


The problems, as Major Hatkevitch points out, arise when the newly minted graduates come home with an attitude of braggadocio (of whatever program - it could be a DoD basic military training course, an "A" course, an officer commissioning route, all the way back down to a humble CAP special activity).  When someone completes a one or two week course taught by SAR amateurs (and that would be ALL of our unpaid volunteer courses!!!!), and subsequently exhibits an attitude more consistent with a Tier 1 special ops soldier, then most of us call "BS" on that, and react negatively.


In realist terms - the hats/badges are not the central issue (never were, to those with an ops focus). The attitude is, from an ORM standpoint. The reason is, when we regain a member who truly believes that they've gone from being a member of a whopping two years two months experience into a super SAR soldier - and then expects to be anointed and obeyed as the local expert, despite their true skill set (born of not just education and training, but also experience) then we've introduced a dangerous unstable element into our local SAR/DR team. At least until we can calm them down and re-center their attitude.


My take:
We need to continue to send our people to NESA, Hawk, Pathfinder, and the other schools, and support those events with $/staff.
We need to continue to accept viewpoints from outside our own local area (again: Plato's allegory of the cave - look it up, cadets).
We need to continue to set the expectation that capability results from all 3 factors: education, training, and experience, plus equipment.
We need those activities to include a briefing to counter the hazardous "attitude" ORM effect post graduation.
Finally, we need local units to work with their patch wearers to channel their energies/attitude constructively (and rein in the attitudes).


Responsible DoD schools (e.g. HAVOC, Top Gun, Fighter Weps school) actually do include a discussion of the socio-psych impacts of returning to their home units as a patch wearer SME (subject matter expert), and how to avoid being a liability with an "attitude", and how to turn their expertise into being an asset. We should do the same, across the board.


V/r
Spam
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oweng_01
Guest
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2017, 10:20:56 AM »

I think the Hawk Mountain ranger school isn't the problem, its that the cadet/seniors need to come back more humble and help teach others. Just my two cents.

                                                                                                                ---Local SAR Guy
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Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,040

« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2017, 12:12:01 PM »

I have been to 6 summer Hawks and as many winter ones.
Have not seen any problems lately.


Those problems typically arose once they got back to their "non-ranger" home units.

Concur. That's when we tell them to take off their attitude (let alone the unauthorized tabs/hats/patches, which is the SURFACE issue).


Look: good, useful training to standards is valuable no matter the source, right? Gaining an appreciation of the fundamentals, the advanced concepts, and the recurrency training for a range of specialties is not the issue - never was, as long as the training is to the task/standards/conditions that we've all standardized on. There is an invaluable benefit, in fact, in "cross breeding" for vitality and strength by introducing new ideas into stale organizations, and in shaking up the local status quos by exchanging new Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTPS), to use the DoD terminology.


The problems, as Major Hatkevitch points out, arise when the newly minted graduates come home with an attitude of braggadocio (of whatever program - it could be a DoD basic military training course, an "A" course, an officer commissioning route, all the way back down to a humble CAP special activity).  When someone completes a one or two week course taught by SAR amateurs (and that would be ALL of our unpaid volunteer courses!!!!), and subsequently exhibits an attitude more consistent with a Tier 1 special ops soldier, then most of us call "BS" on that, and react negatively.


In realist terms - the hats/badges are not the central issue (never were, to those with an ops focus). The attitude is, from an ORM standpoint. The reason is, when we regain a member who truly believes that they've gone from being a member of a whopping two years two months experience into a super SAR soldier - and then expects to be anointed and obeyed as the local expert, despite their true skill set (born of not just education and training, but also experience) then we've introduced a dangerous unstable element into our local SAR/DR team. At least until we can calm them down and re-center their attitude.


My take:
We need to continue to send our people to NESA, Hawk, Pathfinder, and the other schools, and support those events with $/staff.
We need to continue to accept viewpoints from outside our own local area (again: Plato's allegory of the cave - look it up, cadets).
We need to continue to set the expectation that capability results from all 3 factors: education, training, and experience, plus equipment.
We need those activities to include a briefing to counter the hazardous "attitude" ORM effect post graduation.
Finally, we need local units to work with their patch wearers to channel their energies/attitude constructively (and rein in the attitudes).


Responsible DoD schools (e.g. HAVOC, Top Gun, Fighter Weps school) actually do include a discussion of the socio-psych impacts of returning to their home units as a patch wearer SME (subject matter expert), and how to avoid being a liability with an "attitude", and how to turn their expertise into being an asset. We should do the same, across the board.


V/r
Spam

^^^ What he said

(Sorry about being late to the party...but these observations can apply to encampment, NBB, etc.)
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Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)
Brad
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 772
Unit: MER-SC-020

« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2017, 02:20:36 PM »

Going to shamelessly steal/paraphrase something that just about every Fire Academy instructor I've had says at the end of a certification course: "You've learned just enough to be dangerous, and the day you think you know it all and don't need to train is the day you need to go home."

Well said, Spam.
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Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Director of Communications
SCWG
Sandlapper 41
K4RMN
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: Hawk Mountain Hate
 


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