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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: Pjoc pararescue orientation
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180185
Newbie

Posts: 2
Unit: SWR-AZ-66

« on: December 21, 2016, 12:39:06 AM »

I am new to cap and I don't know if you have to be 15 to take pjoc or like me I going to be 16 and I haven't been to encampment yet and that's one of the requirements. I am in good physical shape and could improve in time for the summer but can't make because of the cost and the time. So would have to take pjoc when I am 16 or go to AP pjoc. I am so confused and I am interested in the program. 😕😦⁉
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2016, 01:07:25 AM »

Most of these questions, and the 100 more you likely have, are best answered by your local staff.

With that said, the website is pretty clear:
http://ncsas.com/index.cfm/pararescue_orientation_course?show=career_fair&careerFairID=3

You must be 15 years old by 15 July 2017.

You must have completed an encampment, which in your wing was in early June of 2016, and presumably would be around the same
time in 2017.
     http://encampment.azwg.org/
     http://www.facebook.com/AZWGEncampment
In order to attend an encampment, you must complete your first achievement (Curry), which should not be an issue in the time allotted.
There are also several encampments (Kansas, Kentucky, & Illinois) which have encampments in the Winter or Spring.

As PJOC is an NCSA, you must apply for it by 15 January 2017 - you will probably need you local staff to assist yo with that,
and since you will need their approval to go, there is little time to waste to discuss if this is realistic.  http://ncsas.com/

There is money called "CEAP" to assist with the expense of encampments for those in financial need:  https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/activities/ceap/
Again, you will need your Commander's assistance and approval for this.

There are also various scholarships available, with an application deadline of 31 Dec 2016:
https://www.capmembers.com/cadet_programs/scholarships/  Same rules apply about help and approval.

And occasionally wings or other groups will help sponsor cadets in need with activity expenses. YMMV in that regard,
good cadet progression, participation, and well-written letters to local VFWs, Legion Halls, or the Lion's club can be very effective.

That makes it possible, but very aggressive, especially for a new cadet in your first year (but not unheard  of).

As a Commander, my suggestion would be on setting a goal of progressing and assimilating as much and as far in CAP
as you can during your first year, and attending an encampment.  By mid-summer you should be or near to being an NCO and
really understand what CAP is about, and whether it is for you.

PJOC is a highly competitive and very demanding High Adventure Activity.  You need to be prepared for the challenge, and
secure in your abilities as a cadet before they will accept you as an applicant.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 01:13:00 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
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Offutteer
Forum Regular

Posts: 117

« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 10:31:32 AM »

The minimum age for PJOC is 15, there isn't a maximum age, except that you'll become a senior when you turn 21, and this is a cadet activity. 

So, go to encampment this summer and then apply for PJOC next summer.  That should give you plenty of time to mow lawns, babysit or get a part-time job to help with the costs of PJOC.

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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,731
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 11:49:38 AM »

PJOC is held in the Rocky Mountains with an altitude of over 5000 feet above sea level. Upon arrival you will be given a PT test to ensure that you'll be able to keep up with HIGH INTENSITY Physical requirements. If you fail the PT test you will be home within 24 hours. a minimal passing score at sea level wont equate to a passing score at PJOC.Find some people who have attended to see what the activity is about and whether you should apply for the course.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 587

« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2016, 02:25:27 AM »

All cadets interested in PJOC / APJOC should keep in mind that apparently the two activities have some sort of waiver from our cadet protection policy (such as using physical conditioning as punishment for discrepancies). If they are not up front about that with you (and your parents), they should be.
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,580

« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2016, 11:28:56 AM »

All cadets interested in PJOC / APJOC should keep in mind that apparently the two activities have some sort of waiver from our cadet protection policy (such as using physical conditioning as punishment for discrepancies). If they are not up front about that with you (and your parents), they should be.
What has been your involvement with PJOC?   If you have no first hand knowledge, don't spread RUMINT.

 BTW, this thread is in the wrong forum.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 587

« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2016, 12:35:33 PM »

What has been your involvement with PJOC?   If you have no first hand knowledge, don't spread RUMINT.

I've had multiple cadets from my wing attend over the past few years who all tell the same story. I then called one of the activity staff who told the same story as the cadets. I was told by the staff member that they had permission for everything they do at the activity.

While I don't agree with rationale I was given to waive certain aspects of the CPP, NHQ signed off on it and that's way above my pay grade. I just think when you ignore portions of what we consider to be one of the most important regulations in CAP, both cadets and parents should be fully aware of what they're getting into.

For the record, all of the cadets that I know who participated stated it was a demanding activity and one they were extraordinarily proud to have completed.
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,580

« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2016, 12:54:19 PM »

What has been your involvement with PJOC?   If you have no first hand knowledge, don't spread RUMINT.

I've had multiple cadets from my wing attend over the past few years who all tell the same story. I then called one of the activity staff who told the same story as the cadets. I was told by the staff member that they had permission for everything they do at the activity.

While I don't agree with rationale I was given to waive certain aspects of the CPP, NHQ signed off on it and that's way above my pay grade. I just think when you ignore portions of what we consider to be one of the most important regulations in CAP, both cadets and parents should be fully aware of what they're getting into.

For the record, all of the cadets that I know who participated stated it was a demanding activity and one they were extraordinarily proud to have completed.
So, you have no first hand experience. 

I assure you that your info is not correct.  You've stated this in the past and were corrected on it.  Do not perpetuate RUMINT.  There is no "waiver from CPP".
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 05:55:03 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2016, 01:22:34 PM »

CPPT, including PT as punishment, isn't something CAP NHQ can "waive".

Were any of my cadets to return telling this tale, I would immediately report it as per regs to my Wing CC as a CPPT violation.

100% unacceptable.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 587

« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2016, 02:58:16 PM »

CPPT, including PT as punishment, isn't something CAP NHQ can "waive".

When I reported this to my chain of command, the answer I got back was the activity is run by Air Force personnel "who know what they're doing", so NHQ feels what takes place at the activity is acceptable.

They be the boss, so it is what it is.

Saying they have a waiver was a poor choice of words because it suggests a paper trail. It's an implicit waiver in that NHQ knows what they are doing and allows it.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,451

« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2016, 03:30:09 PM »

Unless they are involved, your chain would have no more knowledge of the situation then you do,
if they are, you'd have to take above or beyond them anyway.

The route-1 on this would have and should be your Wing CC, or perhaps even the Nat IG since this
is an NCSA we're talking about.

If you believe it to be true to the extent you will state it publicly as fact, then you're duty-bound to purse
it beyond a dismissive wave-off by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

And if I was involved in PJOC, I'd want any sniff of something like this to be dispelled immediately lest
it taint the activity's reputation.

Regardless of who is on staff, it's a CAP activity, which means it is bound by CAP regs from end-to-end, just
like any number of other activities which involve members of the military as instructors. The regs are unambiguously
clear that PT as discipline, whether in a group or individually, is 100% verboten, and the expectation is
that all CAP activities operate under that principle.

Anything less insinuates there is "wiggle room" in the prohibition and calls everyone else's integrity into question as well.
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,580

« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2016, 03:44:26 PM »

CPPT, including PT as punishment, isn't something CAP NHQ can "waive".

When I reported this to my chain of command, the answer I got back was the activity is run by Air Force personnel "who know what they're doing", so NHQ feels what takes place at the activity is acceptable.

They be the boss, so it is what it is.

Saying they have a waiver was a poor choice of words because it suggests a paper trail. It's an implicit waiver in that NHQ knows what they are doing and allows it.
Quit speculating about things you know nothing about, especially on a subject such as this.  Very simply, NHQ continues to approve this program because it adheres to CPP. 

Let me make it clear, if it wasn't already...
"While PJOC is a demanding course, cadets are never hazed or subject to abuse in any form. The staff includes CAP senior members, Air Force reservists and Air Force instructors – each one a highly qualified and experienced professional. The staff strictly adheres to the guidelines set in the Civil Air Patrol cadet protection program. No one tolerates hazing by either a staff member or a cadet. There are no initiation or “rite of passage” elements in this program.   The nearest thing to a rite of passage for a cadet is completing their first rappel or looking down on the world from the top of a mountain, knowing they’ve accomplished something that most people only dream about...."
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 04:14:24 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
vorteks
Seasoned Member

Posts: 211

« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2016, 04:12:55 PM »

Unless they are involved, your chain would have no more knowledge of the situation then you do,
if they are, you'd have to take above or beyond them anyway.

The route-1 on this would have and should be your Wing CC, or perhaps even the Nat IG since this
is an NCSA we're talking about.

If you believe it to be true to the extent you will state it publicly as fact, then you're duty-bound to purse
it beyond a dismissive wave-off by people who have no idea what they are talking about.

And if I was involved in PJOC, I'd want any sniff of something like this to be dispelled immediately lest
it taint the activity's reputation.

Regardless of who is on staff, it's a CAP activity, which means it is bound by CAP regs from end-to-end, just
like any number of other activities which involve members of the military as instructors. The regs are unambiguously
clear that PT as discipline, whether in a group or individually, is 100% verboten
, and the expectation is
that all CAP activities operate under that principle.

Anything less insinuates there is "wiggle room" in the prohibition and calls everyone else's integrity into question as well.

It's not that black & white in the new CPP. "Exercise as punishment" is only mentioned in a paragraph about Mismatched Goals & Intensities and is referred to as a "boundary concern."

"(1) An inappropriately high level of training intensity does not meet this regulation’s definition of abuse or hazing unless it causes serious physical harm or serious emotional harm. Inappropriate yelling, using exercise as punishment, and creating an overly-stressful environment and other conduct listed in CAPP 52-23 are examples of inappropriately high training intensities that will be treated as boundary concerns."

If you read CAPP 52-23 there's all kinds of "wiggle room" on the subject of appropriate training intensity.
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Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 261
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 04:53:39 PM »

My son graduated from PJOC in New Mexico this summer at the age of 15. He came back even more motivated, an extremely high esprit de corps, really wanting to do APJOC, and found the niche he wants to be in if he goes into the Air Force.

Whatever their methods, I hope they don't change a thing.  The course is taught by highly professional Air Force special forces personnel and I've seen first hand examples of how much those PJs care about the program and the cadets.  It's not for everyone and you shouldn't expect it to be on the same level as Encampment.  I've even seen PJs come back and demand a participant remove their patch if they did not graduate to standards.  That patch isn't a participation trophy.
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abdsp51
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Posts: 2,259
Unit: Classified

« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2016, 05:15:16 PM »

Quote from: Panzerbjorn
I've even seen PJs come back and demand a participant remove their patch if they did not graduate to standards.  That patch isn't a participation trophy.

That's a foul if they didn't meet the standard to graduate they shouldn't have received the patch or graduated.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,761

« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2016, 05:39:20 PM »

I know a guy who once saw a Cadet who went to PJOC....mother of pearl....can anybody personally involved in the management of this activity chime in? The tales are starting to sound Nazi submarine-like.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832
Unit: GA-001/CV

« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2016, 05:41:37 PM »

I've had a number of cadets attend over the years (two of my cadet officers graduated this past summer for example) and agree with Panzerbjorns comments. Be fit, be squared away, be properly equipped/attired, and most importantly have a suitable mental attitude.


On fitness.
About five years ago, I did have one 17 year old C/LT, a fit, muscular high school football linebacker type, who DNQ'd out on the initial assessment. He just wasn't prepared physically for the specifics of the test. The next summer, he went back, passed with flying colors, and proudly wore his cap at the unit (for one night, one night only, Vasily).  They are serious about sending you home.


On the allegations of intensity mismatch/hazing.
There are valid OPSEC reasons to restrict discussions about TTPs (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) used in the personnel recovery mission (A.Member, please PM me if necessary). These concerns extend even to review of photos of the events (for example, one of my C/MAJs was unable to gain permission to share a PJOC event photo for our annual unit log last week). Sometimes, such restrictions can be seen as necessary safeguards, or may be suspect when questions arise over intensity/student mismatches. Its the responsibility of our designated CAP monitors to monitor training within CPP limits and to screen, review, and send home any candidates who can't keep up with the intensity demanded by the training, as with any event. It is equally as important to make sure that valid OPSEC concerns aren't used as a privacy screen outside of which people suspect misbehavior.


On trusted agents:
"Trust but verify" is the role of any of our trusted CAP agents on site, as well as "avoid even the appearance of impropriety", especially when there's an acknowledged veil from public view. On that basis of trust, I will continue to approve my (selected!) cadets participation, and I have a history (in the '90s) of withdrawing approval (for IACE, back before they fixed their program re: cadet consumption of alcohol). On their track record of progressively fixing such issues, they've rebuilt and retain my trust (but, I watch and listen, as we all should).


V/r
Spam




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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,580

« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2016, 05:44:05 PM »

I know a guy who once saw a Cadet who went to PJOC....mother of pearl....can anybody personally involved in the management of this activity chime in? The tales are starting to sound Nazi submarine-like.
Yes...already have.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 06:15:09 PM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,761

« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2016, 05:44:25 PM »

My son graduated from PJOC in New Mexico this summer at the age of 15. He came back even more motivated, an extremely high esprit de corps, really wanting to do APJOC, and found the niche he wants to be in if he goes into the Air Force.

Whatever their methods, I hope they don't change a thing.  The course is taught by highly professional Air Force special forces personnel and I've seen first hand examples of how much those PJs care about the program and the cadets.  It's not for everyone and you shouldn't expect it to be on the same level as Encampment.  I've even seen PJs come back and demand a participant remove their patch if they did not graduate to standards.  That patch isn't a participation trophy.

I've known 2 cadets who went. One to NM, one to GWNF. Both came back highly motivated and set on a path to SOF. Both are serving, but not in SOF roles. Apparently, the real deal is a lot tougher than the courses they took. Best advice is to talk to an operator, see what he can do to prep and prep hard for indoc. Hope that motivation sticks with him! Good luck.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 261
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2016, 06:21:31 PM »

I've known 2 cadets who went. One to NM, one to GWNF. Both came back highly motivated and set on a path to SOF. Both are serving, but not in SOF roles. Apparently, the real deal is a lot tougher than the courses they took. Best advice is to talk to an operator, see what he can do to prep and prep hard for indoc. Hope that motivation sticks with him! Good luck.

It would definitely be interesting.  He wants to do nursing as a civilian career, and since those guys are all registered paramedics, it gives him everything he's looking for.  Yeah, those PJs definitely earn their emblem, and anyone who believes that PJOC is just like the real thing is in for a bit of a shock.  But we'll see.  I'll be proud in whatever capacity he serves, but I certainly wouldn't mind having a Guardian Angel Dad sticker on my back window. :)
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