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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« on: December 01, 2016, 11:53:49 PM »

I'm a 900 hour PPL and will be taking my Form 91 in the next few days to have MP status. So I'll be qualified to start IFR training. We have a CFII in the Squadron and is ready to help.  A couple questions:

A)  I'm quite happy to pay for the flights under C-12, but I see some past threads here saying it should be entered as B-12 and that all seems to be quite fuzzy. I can't find a definitive answer.

B)   C-172 G1000 for all my training. Are there any DPEs in CAP? I'm assuming that a non-member DPE cannot give me a check ride in the CAP plane? Or is there an exception somewhere for this? Otherwise I'll have to start looking in other cities for a similarly equipped plane I can get checked out in to rent to the check ride.

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RogueLeader
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Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2016, 12:04:37 AM »

The mission symbol is determining of the mission type abs who pays. A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2016, 12:15:05 AM »

A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

Kinda

C- missions are "corporate", meaning no FECA or FTCA coverage or USAF funding. Could be the wing, a customer, or even your squadron or
a special activity.

B-missions are non-funded AFAMs, FECA and FTCA coverage are provided but no funding.

The 2008 rev of 60-1 spelled out specifically the symbol requirements for IFR training, but that verbiage was removed,
however I don't believe the USAF allows for AFAM status for initial training for senior members.

If you are going to be rated SAR/DR pilot, you should look into your wing's A12 program.  There should be
money on the table for full-funded proficiency flying using the standard profiles (again I don't thin you can do IFR initial
as an A12, but you can do IFR proficiency later).
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2016, 12:30:20 AM »

A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

Kinda

C- missions are "corporate", meaning no FECA or FTCA coverage or USAF funding. Could be the wing, a customer, or even your squadron or
a special activity.

B-missions are non-funded AFAMs, FECA and FTCA coverage are provided but no funding.

The 2008 rev of 60-1 spelled out specifically the symbol requirements for IFR training, but that verbiage was removed,
however I don't believe the USAF allows for AFAM status for initial training for senior members.

If you are going to be rated SAR/DR pilot, you should look into your wing's A12 program.  There should be
money on the table for full-funded proficiency flying using the standard profiles (again I don't thin you can do IFR initial
as an A12, but you can do IFR proficiency later).

Yep. But I'm happy to just pay so the money can go to others. So I'll just stick to C-12.  My second question has me more interested.  Has anyone ever used a CAP plane for a check ride with a DPE? Allowed or not?
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,605

« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2016, 12:51:40 AM »

A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

Kinda

C- missions are "corporate", meaning no FECA or FTCA coverage or USAF funding. Could be the wing, a customer, or even your squadron or
a special activity.

B-missions are non-funded AFAMs, FECA and FTCA coverage are provided but no funding.

The 2008 rev of 60-1 spelled out specifically the symbol requirements for IFR training, but that verbiage was removed,
however I don't believe the USAF allows for AFAM status for initial training for senior members.

If you are going to be rated SAR/DR pilot, you should look into your wing's A12 program.  There should be
money on the table for full-funded proficiency flying using the standard profiles (again I don't thin you can do IFR initial
as an A12, but you can do IFR proficiency later).

Yep. But I'm happy to just pay so the money can go to others. So I'll just stick to C-12.  My second question has me more interested.  Has anyone ever used a CAP plane for a check ride with a DPE? Allowed or not?

60-1 2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership, CAP employees, ROTC/JROTC cadets (ROTC/JROTC flight orientation program only), International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE) orientation flight cadets and escorts, CAP-USAF personnel conducting official business, FAA Inspectors, or FAA designated pilot examiners during flight evaluations.

Read the rest of that section and consult your DO.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 434

« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2016, 12:54:18 AM »

The mission symbol is determining of the mission type abs who pays. A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

??  C12 is a corporate mission symbol.  The pilot pays the cost, and death benefits are $10K.  B12 is an Air Force Assigned Mission, BUT on your dime.  However, there's a $million dollar insurance policy.  A-missions are the ones that are fully funded.  I've not seen Wing money pay for a B-12.   
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Eclipse
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2016, 12:55:35 AM »

So I'll just stick to C-12. 

Make sure you review this document:  http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPR_601_Flight_Mission_Symbols_230_4A0C7BAFBB204.pdf
Senior member flight training for additional ratings is flown under symbol C25.

The USAF does not allow flight training under B-symbols.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2016, 01:03:36 AM »

The mission symbol is determining of the mission type abs who pays. A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

??  C12 is a corporate mission symbol.  The pilot pays the cost, and death benefits are $10K.  B12 is an Air Force Assigned Mission, BUT on your dime.  However, there's a $million dollar insurance policy.  A-missions are the ones that are fully funded.  I've not seen Wing money pay for a B-12.

A million what now?

Also, there's a lot of important detail missing in the above.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2016, 01:04:48 AM »


60-1 2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership, CAP employees, ROTC/JROTC cadets (ROTC/JROTC flight orientation program only), International Air Cadet Exchange (IACE) orientation flight cadets and escorts, CAP-USAF personnel conducting official business, FAA Inspectors, or FAA designated pilot examiners during flight evaluations.


Quote from: Eclipse

Senior member flight training for additional ratings is flown under symbol C25.


Thanks guys! As usual the answers were right in front of me and I overlooked them.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2016, 01:07:42 AM »

Also, FWIW, CAP-USAF strongly encourages flying everything (non A) possible under a B vs a C specifically for the
extra benefits a B affords the mission.

They've literally said that in the rare case of a mishap involving injury or death, they don't want the member
or their family to get shortchanged or administrative technicalities.

Same goes for ground ops.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 789

« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2016, 01:16:18 AM »

Also, FWIW, CAP-USAF strongly encourages flying everything (non A) possible under a B vs a C specifically for the
extra benefits a B affords the mission.

They've literally said that in the rare case of a mishap involving injury or death, they don't want the member
or their family to get shortchanged or administrative technicalities.

Same goes for ground ops.

Sounds good, but looking in this:

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAPR_601_Flight_Mission_Symbols_230_4A0C7BAFBB204.pdf

... would that be a B-5 and self pay? 

The wording of C-25 is very specific to what I would be doing.  Is my IFR training considered "AF Training Missions" for B-5?

I'm paying either way. I just want to make sure I log everything properly in WMIRS.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 27,891

« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2016, 02:22:38 AM »

The IFR upgrade has to be done as a C25, but once you're qual'ed you can fly IFR proficiency flights as B12 Profile 7, which of course
you could also fly as funded A12 Profile 7 at that point.

Also, once you're IFR qual'ed, there are IFR approach options for the other profiles as well.
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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2016, 11:06:25 AM »

The mission symbol is determining of the mission type abs who pays. A C12 means you are paying the costs. A B12 means, likely, the wing is paying the costs.

  I've not seen Wing money pay for a B-12.

I see way too much of it, IMHO.
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