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Eclipse
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« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2016, 04:18:44 PM »

A lot of this training for the new MC rating came directly from CAP's involvement in "Deepwater Horizon" and various hurricane/flooding/etc missions.

None of which involved "mass casualties", at least not where CAP was involved.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2016, 05:29:04 PM »

I'm still not sure how a CDI is somewhat more qualified to pursue training and qualification as a CSS over other members with GES and advanced ES qualifications. Since educational requirements were removed, the only training requirements for CDI appointment are TLC and Basic Instructor Course. CDIs don't even require endorsement by a religious body anymore and most don't work directly with any Chaplain. In fact, the new requirements in CAPR 265-1 allows almost anyone to be vetted and appointed a CDI. So why is that a requirement for CSS?

My experience as a commander has been that most members are appointed CDI only (or primarily) because of the requirement to teach Character Development to cadets in the absence of a Chaplain IAW CAPR 265-1. Absent this requirement, I don't believe many members would pursue this endorsement. Furthermore, the CDI endorsement doesn't guarantee any disposition to work with a Chaplain above that of other members. CDI as a prerequisite for CSS just doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps someone involved with this project can shed some light.

As for the revamped MC training, I only hope this is being done in coordination with other ICS specialty qualifications. After all, the MC works for the IC and in coordination with the rest of the IMT. Their training should reflect that. Since Chaplains will never work on a CAP mission by themselves, but as part of the IMT, I would like to see more involvement of Chaplains in ES training and exercises. Sadly, that has not been my experience.

** edited to add missing word (bolded)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2016, 05:59:42 PM by Storm Chaser » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2016, 05:40:02 PM »

I'm still not sure how a CDI is somewhat more qualified to pursue training and qualification as a CSS over other members with GES and advanced ES qualifications. Since educational requirements were removed, the only training requirements for CDI appointment are TLC and Basic Instructor Course. CDIs don't even require endorsement by a religious body anymore and most work directly with any Chaplain. In fact, the new requirements in CAPR 265-1 allows almost anyone to be vetted and appointed a CDI. So why is that a requirement for CSS?

My experience as a commander has been that most members are appointed CDI only (or primarily) because of the requirement to teach Character Development to cadets in the absence of a Chaplain IAW CAPR 265-1. Absent this requirement, I don't believe many members would pursue this endorsement. Furthermore, the CDI endorsement doesn't guarantee any disposition to work with a Chaplain above that of other members. CDI as a prerequisite for CSS just doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps someone involved with this project can shed some light.

Yep - there appears to be some serious disconnect between the field and NHQ in regards to "why" most members become CDIs.

As for the revamped MC training, I only hope this is being done in coordination with other ICS specialty qualifications. After all, the MC works for the IC and in coordination with the rest of the IMT. Their training should reflect that. Since Chaplains will never work on a CAP mission by themselves, but as part of the IMT, I would like to see more involvement of Chaplains in ES training and exercises. Sadly, that has not been my experience.

Agree, however CAP Chaplains can be involved in USAF operations CAP isn't a part of and outside the normal CAP response framework and chain.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2016, 06:02:13 PM »

As for the revamped MC training, I only hope this is being done in coordination with other ICS specialty qualifications. After all, the MC works for the IC and in coordination with the rest of the IMT. Their training should reflect that. Since Chaplains will never work on a CAP mission by themselves, but as part of the IMT, I would like to see more involvement of Chaplains in ES training and exercises. Sadly, that has not been my experience.

Agree, however CAP Chaplains can be involved in USAF operations CAP isn't a part of and outside the normal CAP response framework and chain.

True, but they now have a rating that should reflect that role.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2016, 06:10:47 PM »

True, but they now have a rating that should reflect that role.

They always did "CAP Chaplain".  In fact, AFAIK, "Mission Chaplain" was / is a CAP thing irrelevant to the USAF Chaplain Augmentation program.

CAP Chaplains are required to have the same level of training as USAF Chaplains, respectively, the finding indicated they didn't, primarily I would guess because the
majority of CAP Chaplains aren't involved in ES, in CAP or externally.  The average neighborhood priest, minister, or Rabbi  isn't likely
to have mass casualty or similar training, yet those are the people being appointed as CAP Chaplains, and in some cases providing augmentation support,
irrespective of being an MC.

That's not going to change, nor be helped much, by a school at NESA which few will attend.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 06:13:13 PM »

I just hope their training is being developed in line with and to support the objectives of CAP as a whole when it comes to SAR, DR, and other operations. I think there's a bit of a disconnect right now, but easily addressed. The Chaplain Program, just like any other program in CAP (Communications, Logistics, Public Affairs, etc.), cannot be developed in isolation, but as part of an integrated approach. After all, these are all support functions, not the mission itself.
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Chappie
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« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 06:43:51 PM »

I just hope their training is being developed in line with and to support the objectives of CAP as a whole when it comes to SAR, DR, and other operations. I think there's a bit of a disconnect right now, but easily addressed. The Chaplain Program, just like any other program in CAP (Communications, Logistics, Public Affairs, etc.), cannot be developed in isolation, but as part of an integrated approach. After all, these are all support functions, not the mission itself.

Rest assure that John Desmarais -- Director of Operations -- has been involved in the process from the beginning.   These changes have not been developed in isolation...nor the establishment of the course of study at NESA.  It has transpired under his "watchful" eye and with his valued input.
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Chappie
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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2016, 06:52:55 PM »

True, but they now have a rating that should reflect that role.

They always did "CAP Chaplain".  In fact, AFAIK, "Mission Chaplain" was / is a CAP thing irrelevant to the USAF Chaplain Augmentation program.

CAP Chaplains are required to have the same level of training as USAF Chaplains, respectively, the finding indicated they didn't, primarily I would guess because the
majority of CAP Chaplains aren't involved in ES, in CAP or externally.  The average neighborhood priest, minister, or Rabbi  isn't likely
to have mass casualty or similar training, yet those are the people being appointed as CAP Chaplains, and in some cases providing augmentation support,
irrespective of being an MC.

That's not going to change, nor be helped much, by a school at NESA which few will attend.

That is true that the current MC rating is irrelevant to the USAF Chaplain Corps Augmentation program....hence the new rating for Mission Chaplain - Air Force Support Rating.  Also keep in mind that the MC SQTRS have not been touched in nearly 10 years or more.

NESA will not be the only venue for training.   Most of the FEMA classes are on-line...and the CAP related courses will be taught at CCRSC, Wing Conferences, online.   The NESA experience/location is to make available a one-stop training (rather than knocking it out here and there over the course of months/years) as well as the inter-disciplinary nature of the school (i.e. training scenarios, working with the ground teams, etc).
 
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2016, 06:58:00 PM »

I just hope their training is being developed in line with and to support the objectives of CAP as a whole when it comes to SAR, DR, and other operations. I think there's a bit of a disconnect right now, but easily addressed. The Chaplain Program, just like any other program in CAP (Communications, Logistics, Public Affairs, etc.), cannot be developed in isolation, but as part of an integrated approach. After all, these are all support functions, not the mission itself.

Rest assure that John Desmarais -- Director of Operations -- has been involved in the process from the beginning.   These changes have not been developed in isolation...nor the established of the course of study at NESA.  It has transpired under his "watchful" eye and with his valued input.

I'm sure the Chaplain Corps have worked very hard and diligently to produce a great training program. That can be said of most programs in CAP. Yet, when it comes to implementation, many of these programs don't seem to be in sync with the reality in the field. Of course, I'm not saying that's going to be the case with this program. Only that that has been the experience with other programs.

Frankly, I welcome any improvement over the current MC SQTR, which doesn't cover or require much. I also want to see more chaplains actively participating in exercises and missions. I think that would be beneficial not only to MCs, but to ICs and other IMT members.

If you could, I would appreciate clarification on the CSS prerequisite. Why the CDI requirement? Why should a member wanting to support the Mission Chaplain role as a Chaplain Support Specialist have to be appointed as a CDI first? CDI has nothing to do with Emergency Services and everything to do with Cadet Programs. I can think of members who are not CDI, but would probably like to pursue the CSS qualification. Thank you for any information you can provide.
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Chappie
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2016, 07:09:52 PM »

I am seeking out the clarification for you :)  My emails have not been answered yet and once I get an answer I will be sure to post it.

As for the participation in exercises and missions, I can attest to the fact that more times than not, the chaplain is the last to know of the event.  When the SARX is being planned, the chaplain needs to be on the check-list of IC to invite.   One of the reasons that this specialty track is being updated is that we have had very few MC rated chaplains.  With the 3-tier system, more chaplains can be rated for CAP related missions -- which should reflect in the "dings" received in Wing CIs or SARX findings.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 07:16:59 PM »

With the 3-tier system, more chaplains can be rated for CAP related missions -- which should reflect in the "dings" received in Wing CIs or SARX findings.

Having a different system won't grow more interested people.

The reasons Chaplains aren't "notified" of missions and training is that they can't be because they aren't qualified or interested in ES.

In my range of site and contact, the response is generally "Nah, I'm here for the kids..."  There is also the non-trivial matter of
most training and SARExs occurring on weekends, which for the majority of faith is considered their "busy time".
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Chappie
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2016, 08:07:06 PM »

With the 3-tier system, more chaplains can be rated for CAP related missions -- which should reflect in the "dings" received in Wing CIs or SARX findings.

Having a different system won't grow more interested people.

The reasons Chaplains aren't "notified" of missions and training is that they can't be because they aren't qualified or interested in ES.

In my range of site and contact, the response is generally "Nah, I'm here for the kids..."  There is also the non-trivial matter of
most training and SARExs occurring on weekends, which for the majority of faith is considered their "busy time".

Since the introduction of the CAPP221 in 2012, ES has been a part of each rating in Professional Development:

Technician - Obtain GES rating; Senior - Obtain Mission Chaplain rating; Master - additional training in CISM; Q-P-R; A.S.I.S.T or a course approved by the CCAC.   Since then there has been a gradual uptick in qualified ES Chaplains due to the inclusion of ES as part of their professional development.

As for the training and SARXs on the week-ends....most Chaplains can attend on Saturday and participate -- and be able to return home in time for their services on Sunday (those who have services on Saturday...can be there on Sunday).   I know that as a SET MC, I have signed off on several in the CAWG over the past couple of years.    Yet in spite of my MC rating, I can attest that unless I make the initial contact with an IC based on the happenstance of hearing a SARX is being planned, I am out of the loop (probably since I am no longer assigned to a local squadron or wing).   And then there are actual missions....for the most part launched remotely.  The majority of missions involve UDF or ground teams.   I can count on one hand the number of actual missions that I have been involved in the past 10 years.

The feedback I occasionally hear is that the Chaplain feels that their service is not desired -- either verbally ("Thank you for your offer...but we have this covered") or the attitude projected ("Chaplains...we don't need no stinkin' chaplains!").   It is difficult to get excited about working in such an environment.   I, too, would rather work with cadets any day of the week where my presence is appreciated than to feel that who I am and what I do is barely tolerated by my fellow members.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2016, 08:26:24 PM »

Yes, ES is part of the 221 rating, but since there's no requirement to pursue the rating, and many Chaplains
receive advanced grade based on their appointment, also little incentive to worry about that, especially
in light of the post 2014 advancement requirements.  Considering that most of the rank and file are going to
top out at Captain, regardless, if you're already wearing the tracks, not much to push you further, and
the general attitude I've encountered from most CAP Chaplains is that grade is besides the point anyway.

The feedback I occasionally hear is that the Chaplain feels that their service is not desired -- either verbally ("Thank you for your offer...but we have this covered") or the attitude projected ("Chaplains...we don't need no stinkin' chaplains!").   It is difficult to get excited about working in such an environment.   I, too, would rather work with cadets any day of the week where my presence is appreciated than to feel that who I am and what I do is barely tolerated by my fellow members.

Well, without putting too fine a point on it, sometimes people ignore the writing on the wall because that's easier then
accepting the reality of the situation.

And in a lot of cases the Chaplains themselves have caused or exacerbated the situation by their own behavior and proselytizing.
With no hyperbole, nor any intention to discuss specifics, some conversations I have had recently on this topic IRL indicate that
the Corps is far from accepting the proper decorum, or even their mandates when an opportunity to garner a flock is in sight.

Cadets are not a faith recruiting pool, nor a target for moral judgement regarding behavior, yet that seems to be too much to ask for
some in the Corps.
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Damron
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 09:41:06 PM »

Well, without putting too fine a point on it, sometimes people ignore the writing on the wall because that's easier then accepting the reality of the situation.

CAP chaplains are swimming in a secular ocean and many fail to recognize it.

Given the atheist, Catholic, Jewish, and gay cadets in my squadron, I'm not sure how well a Protestant chaplain is actually received by my cadets.  Even my church-going Protestant cadets are a bit uncomfortable as they have grown up in a culture where there isn't ceremonial prayer in public schools or the workplace  - it is not lost on them that it is possible that  the person leading prayer thinks some of their fellow cadets are doomed to eternal hell-fire unless they accept Christ as their savior.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't met a CAP chaplain I didn't like.  Like others, I give them the podium and hope they don't offend the flock.  I guess we should save any spirited debate for uniform issues.

On a side note: I have two members that submitted CDI packets.  What's the average length of time for approval?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 09:55:41 PM »

Given the atheist, Catholic, Jewish, and gay cadets in my squadron,

See, there's my issue right there - I have no reason to be even aware of the above in a CAP context.
Those situations have no relevance to CAP service, yet for some reason people seem to think it's a "thing".

(Damron, not saying you, just your example...)
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Damron
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« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 10:09:47 PM »

Given the atheist, Catholic, Jewish, and gay cadets in my squadron,

See, there's my issue right there - I have no reason to be even aware of the above in a CAP context.
Those situations have no relevance to CAP service, yet for some reason people seem to think it's a "thing".

(Damron, not saying you, just your example...)

I see your point.  While I believe in boundaries, we just come to know some things. 

I think that chaplains should wear common insignia so we don't highlight differences.   On a positive note, our former chaplain was a talented motivational speaker that found common ground among a diverse audience. 
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2016, 01:11:42 AM »

Given the atheist, Catholic, Jewish, and gay cadets in my squadron,

See, there's my issue right there - I have no reason to be even aware of the above in a CAP context.
Those situations have no relevance to CAP service, yet for some reason people seem to think it's a "thing".

(Damron, not saying you, just your example...)

I see your point.  While I believe in boundaries, we just come to know some things. 

I think that chaplains should wear common insignia so we don't highlight differences.   On a positive note, our former chaplain was a talented motivational speaker that found common ground among a diverse audience.


Respectfully, think we should protect differences, not wipe them out. That's one of our key EEO principles, last I'd looked.


(Whats up here, that I of all people have turned into the diversity officer?  How come diversity is good unless you're a chaplain in which case your identity should be suppressed)????


V/r
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Chappie
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« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2016, 02:34:31 AM »

<snip>
On a side note: I have two members that submitted CDI packets.  What's the average length of time for approval?

The average length of time for an appointment for a Chaplain or CDI depends on the time the initial paperwork (application/recommendation letter) gets from the local squadron (Sq CC signs off) to wing chaplain (Wing CC signs off) then to the region chaplain for a final look over of the packet -- making sure everything is in order.  The region chaplain fires it off to NHQ for the Chief's approval.  The Chief acts very quickly once the packet gets to NHQ.  Speaking as a former region chaplain, I made it a point to get the packet off my desk within 48 hours.
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Damron
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« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2016, 02:45:33 AM »

 

Respectfully, think we should protect differences, not wipe them out. That's one of our key EEO principles, last I'd looked.


(Whats up here, that I of all people have turned into the diversity officer?  How come diversity is good unless you're a chaplain in which case your identity should be suppressed)????


V/r
Spam

Let's act like CAP is an employer and bound by EEO as described in Title 7. 

There's a difference between protecting religious identity and observance of members, an EEO principle, and  promotion of employer-led programs of a religious nature, which are permitted but are a common cause of EEO complaints.  Cases related to Title 7 have found that employees must be able to opt-out of employer-led programs of a religious nature without recourse.

So, there is a difference between allowing a member the observance of his faith and creating "employer-led" programs of a religious nature.  If our chaplains are supposed to serve all members, why should they wear insignia of one faith?  We shouldn't "see" a member as Jewish. Why should we see a chaplain as Jewish?   

I am making some assumptions.  A chaplain could be an atheist.  I imagine some are.  I don't think that belief is a requirement.   However, it's likely a chaplain wearing the cross is Christian and thinks that non-Christians can look forward to eternal [darn]ation.  Given that we embrace diversity, how can this not be an issue? 

So, no, I don't think that chaplains should wear the insignia of their religious association for the same reason I don't think members should wear religious items not required as a matter of observance. 
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Chappie
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« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2016, 02:48:47 AM »

<snip>
If you could, I would appreciate clarification on the CSS prerequisite. Why the CDI requirement? Why should a member wanting to support the Mission Chaplain role as a Chaplain Support Specialist have to be appointed as a CDI first? CDI has nothing to do with Emergency Services and everything to do with Cadet Programs. I can think of members who are not CDI, but would probably like to pursue the CSS qualification. Thank you for any information you can provide.

Answer came:  the CSS rating is created/designed for Chaplain Corps personnel so that Chaplains/CDIs can form a Chaplain Support Team.  Many CDIs had expressed a desire to assist Chaplains in handling administrative/logistical duties that might distract the Chaplain...should the Chaplain be engaged in other matters, the CDI can sit in on briefings.    There is the MSA rating that others can pursue who are not members of the Chaplain Corps (in fact, that is one of my secondary ES ratings).
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