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Chappie
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« Reply #100 on: December 11, 2016, 03:07:34 PM »

KASSRCrashResearch...thank you for the kind words and thoughtful post.
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Chappie
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« Reply #101 on: December 11, 2016, 03:33:02 PM »

Two major fallacies above, the former of which you keep referencing.

Not all CAP Chaplains pursue the specialty track, I would hazard many have never even opened it, and the appointment is
based wholly on external education and ecclesiastical endorsement.  Assuming they have, the 5 Core processes are not unique to a
Chaplain, (other then the religious aspect)nor do I see how a member of clergy, per se, has any special force powers in those regards.
That's a core part of the problem with the assumption of clergy as "special" - if you recognize a higher power, or the higher power they do,
then the logic is better.

If you don't recognize a higher, or the higher, then they are no more or less qualified, per se, then anyone else with a similar
level of education and general life or business experience.

As to the latter, while many CAP Chaplains are pastors, certainly there are plenty to who are not, so unless the vetting includes some
leadership time within the respective faith, that assumption should not be made.

And the point made earlier about the "secondary chain of command" is correct - a unit CC cannot appoint or remove a Chaplain
without approval of higher HQ, unlike any other staff position - that's clearly a secondary chain, and one which wields it's power
on a regular basis.

BITD I had a Chaplain on my roster who had not attended a meeting in several years, but because he, or someone (as it turns out
it was likely "someone") was submitting empty Form 34's I could not remove this person as my unit's Chaplain of record.


Eclipse...regarding the assertion that Chaplains do not follow the specialty track or have ever opened the 221A, do you have access to the STR of the Chaplain Corps personnel?  Wing and Region Chaplains receive one quarterly -- and part of their responsibilities are too encourage the Chaplain Corps personnel to pursue their PD training.  Since 2007, Chaplains no longer use the Special Recognition Program, and follow the same PD requirements as the other senior members --- so your remark caused me to wonder about the validity of your statement.   Currently there are 446 appointed Chaplains.  Out of this number, those who were appointed prior to 2007 have received either their Senior or Master rating (BTW when the updated 221 was released recently this year...all chaplains were requested to retake the tests)...which means they have opened the 221 series, being that the tests are o-line.  Out of the 446 appointed chaplains, there are currently 55 chaplains who do not have the Technician rating...48 of which have been appointed within the last 18 months.

My comments regarding the 5 Core Processes were in reference to Damron's posting regarding competencies. Not going to debate the uniqueness or universality of them....was simply responding to "chaplains are unqualified for many of the tasks in which they claim competencies."  The 5 Core Processes form our competencies.

While many of our chaplains may not be "pastors", they have served in staff/ministry positions that certainly have equipped them for the tasks we perform.  There are many retired military chaplains -- as well as several active duty chaplains (and a couple of active duty CDIs).

You are correct..."appointments" to the Chaplain Corps take place at the National level.  In fact, only the Chief of the Chaplain Corps can work with the NHQ and the endorsing body to remove a Chaplain's appointment.  A CDI's "appointment" can be removed with the approval of the Wing Commander and the Chief of the Chaplain Corps.  However, the "assignment" is an easier process than BITD.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 03:38:26 PM by Chappie » Logged
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Chappie
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« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2016, 03:37:47 PM »

  The duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

This is incorrect - a Unit Chaplain cannot be removed by anyone lower then the Wing Chaplain.

Edit: Hmm, I just checked the duty Assignment module and there is a "delete" button there.  I'm not
about to test the theory by de-assigning my Chaplin, I have enough problems, but I still
believe this to be the case.  It certainly was the last time I had the issue, which admittedly was a number
of years ago.

There is still the red "Chaplain" in the personnel area, which obviously denotes special status.

The red "Chaplain" or "CDI"  denotes the appointment.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2016, 04:56:28 PM »

Regarding the CDI appointment requirements....for years, the question/concern raised by members of CAP (as well as many of us in Senior Leadership of the Chaplain Corps) was basically that Character Development is a required component of cadet training. Chaplains and MLOs/CDIs are required to facilitate these sessions.  We have squadrons that have neither a chaplain or CDI to meet this requirement.  Recruiting Chaplains is difficult.  And the requirements for a MLO/CDI appointment....if CD isn't a religious activity, why is a letter of recommendation necessary from a pastor/priest/bishop/rabbi/iman???? -- and 60 hours of education from an accredited school (no standard of academic discipline required that had anything to do with the responsibilities of facilitating CD).

So at the urging of many "nice old guys" (LOL) --and under the outstanding leadership of the current Chief, it was discussed and decided that instead of having requirements that were restrictive (based again on the concerns/questions from commanders/members/yes, even chaplains), it was felt that the  Chaplain Corps leadership step up to the plate and do something bold that would meet the need.  So it started with the letter of recommendation...no longer a letter of religious endorsement.  Then seeing that Cadet Programs were requiring two graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron...we determined that the "artificial" academic requirement be replaced with a standardized requirement: completion of TLC (Basic) and Basic Instructor Course (CAP).  The thinking...if a squadron commander approves/presents a qualified person, we will get them appointed.  (And as mentioned in a previous post, since 2015 there has been a dramatic increase in CDI appointments). A substantial specialty training guide has been developed for CDIs -- by CDIs released in the past year (the prior guide was published 4 years after the MLO/CDI position was established in 1995).

We have no arguments here. I believe the number of appointed CDIs has increased over the past couple of years because of these requirement changes, coupled with the fact that there are not enough active chaplains to address the needs of every cadet and composite squadron in CAP and unit commanders can only lead character development sessions in a temporary basis in accordance with the regulation.

As for the appointment/assignment...like other specialty tracks, I have not heard of someone's rating in AE, History, Professional Development, et al being revoked.

I don't think we should mix in this discussion Specialty Track ratings, which are earned and don't expire, with an appointment that is not earned and never expires and a duty assignment that can't be easily removed by the unit commander.

You are "spot on" about the appointment of a CDI/Chaplain...it is difficult to remove. A member of the Chaplain Corps can resign their appointment...seen that occur.  A member of the Chaplain Corps can be 2B'd....seen that occur. An application to the Chaplain Corps as a Chaplain or CDI has been denied by a squadron commander, wing chaplain, or wing commander has occurred.  The duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

I concur with all of that. My issue is not with the chaplain appointment. Chaplains have a special status and I'm fine with that. My issue is with granting CDIs a special status or appointment. I don't believe that's needed to meet our Character Development program.

In my dealings as a Wing/Region Chaplain I have worked with Squadron and Wing leadership to resolve these kind of issues. A Squadron Commander controls the Personnel Authorization for their respective units. If a CDI or Chaplain isn't performing their responsibilities or being a "pain in the keaster", the Commander does not need to keep them on the PA.

The issue is that PAs, while still used by many units, are not really required as duty assignments are done using the Duty Assignment module in eServices. The CDI duty assignment (not appointment; they're actually different) can't be made or removed by the commander.
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2016, 05:01:07 PM »

  The duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

This is incorrect - a Unit Chaplain cannot be removed by anyone lower then the Wing Chaplain.

Edit: Hmm, I just checked the duty Assignment module and there is a "delete" button there.  I'm not
about to test the theory by de-assigning my Chaplin, I have enough problems, but I still
believe this to be the case.  It certainly was the last time I had the issue, which admittedly was a number
of years ago.

There is still the red "Chaplain" in the personnel area, which obviously denotes special status.

I just double checked the CDI duty assignment and I can neither make one nor remove one. Which means I can't assign an already appointed CDI to another unit as ADY without going up the chain.

I also checked for Chaplain duty assignment. In fact, when I assigned a chaplain ADY to my group staff I had to submit a CAPF 2A up the chain.
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Chappie
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« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2016, 05:07:05 PM »

Regarding the CDI appointment requirements....for years, the question/concern raised by members of CAP (as well as many of us in Senior Leadership of the Chaplain Corps) was basically that Character Development is a required component of cadet training. Chaplains and MLOs/CDIs are required to facilitate these sessions. We have squadrons that have neither a chaplain or CDI to meet this requirement.  Recruiting Chaplains is difficult.  And the requirements for a MLO/CDI appointment....if CD isn't a religious activity, why is a letter of recommendation necessary from a pastor/priest/bishop/rabbi/iman???? -- and 60 hours of education from an accredited school (no standard of academic discipline required that had anything to do with the responsibilities of facilitating CD).

Years?  Prior to the current state, there was no mandate of an MLO / CDI facilitating the discussion, in fact, 52-16 specifically indicated that
a commander may appoint anyone to facilitate the discussion.  Thus, there was no "discussion" on this below perhaps wing.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9188.msg165424#msg165424

In fact, I would say during that period, the OPR was clearly CP, not the Chaplaincy.  That was also during a time the MLO still had to be a member
of a church.

I don't have the time to find the exact dates, but it appears to be since only about 2010 or so, which is technically years,
but not in the way insinuated. 

The issue with manpower constraints regarding CD sessions is a pretty recent phenomena, and isn't even universally recognized.
For the typical reasons CAP has issues, I can assure you there are plenty of units unaware of the issue.

Side note:  Gotta love the national website - still has versions of documents that refer to MLO, including a page on how to become one.
http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/how_to_join/clergy_faq/?&show=faq&faqID=148

Years???  I was working from my personal experience/perspective as a Senior Leader in the Chaplain Corps.  When I became a Wing Chaplain in 2001 there were these discussions....and then as a Region Chaplain in 2008...there were discussions.  These discussions were ongoing until 2014 when the current Chief was appointed.  He had sat at the table and heard the discussions when he was a wing chaplain, region chaplain, and a member of the CCEC -- and determined the time of discussing the CD/CDI program was over.  And things have changed dramatically (refer to previous postings) in regards to the program.

Thanks for the link but as in CAP, things do change.  Whether or not there was a mandate of the Chaplain or MLO/CDI facilitating the session, it definitely was inferred, hence the Squadron Commander "temporarily" leading the session or designating someone to lead it.  As noted in the thread, the squadron commander could "temporarily lead the session" and "should strive to recruit a chaplain or character development instructor as soon as possible" (obsolete CAPR 265-1) or "appoint a senior member to conduct the moral leadership program if a chaplain or MLO is not available" (obsolete CAPR 52-16).

Here is the current wording in the CAPR 52-16: b) Character Forums.  Unit commanders will provide a character development program for cadets, using the resources found at capmembers.com/character.  A CAP chaplain or character development instructor (CDI) will coordinate the program.  In units without a chaplain or CDI, the commander may temporarily lead character forums, but must endeavor to recruit a chaplain or CDI as soon as possible. During character forums, cadets examine moral and ethical issues, but the forums are not religious meetings.  The current reg no longer provides a designation for someone else other than a chaplain or character development instructor to lead the session.  The requirements for a CDI appointment makes it easier for a squadron to recruit and obtain a CDI appointment than it was years ago.

Character Development has been part of the Chaplain Corps OPR since its inception.

The manpower constraints are not a pretty recent phenomena....it was a part of the discussions of Wing and Region Chaplains dating back to my appointment as a Wing Chaplain in '01...who knows if they were occurring prior - but I would assume they had since I got a seat at the table with 5 other Wing Chaplains who were appointed before me.  It was a major concern for my wing chaplains when I was a Region Chaplain.  The reports (F34) gathered each month demonstrated that we did not have adequate squadron coverage to facilitate a CD session for our cadets.  We had chaplains and character development instructors traveling to another squadron and as many as 5 others to lead a session.

Per the side note:  Unfortunately, the Chaplain Corps does not have control over the its content on the NHQ website.  We stood up our own website in September - www.capchaplain.com - and NHQ IT was supposed to make sure all the links got redirected.  Evidently they haven't :(.

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Chappie
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« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2016, 05:11:18 PM »

  The duty assignment for a member of the Chaplain Corps is the same process as any other duty position...use the Form 2A.

This is incorrect - a Unit Chaplain cannot be removed by anyone lower then the Wing Chaplain.

Edit: Hmm, I just checked the duty Assignment module and there is a "delete" button there.  I'm not
about to test the theory by de-assigning my Chaplin, I have enough problems, but I still
believe this to be the case.  It certainly was the last time I had the issue, which admittedly was a number
of years ago.

There is still the red "Chaplain" in the personnel area, which obviously denotes special status.

I just double checked the CDI duty assignment and I can neither make one nor remove one. Which means I can't assign an already appointed CDI to another unit as ADY without going up the chain.

I also checked for Chaplain duty assignment. In fact, when I assigned a chaplain ADY to my group staff I had to submit a CAPF 2A up the chain.

It is my understanding that the duty assignment is for the primary unit -- and not for additional units.   You may want to check that out with NHQ personnel.   I sure do miss Frances....she answered all my questions and helped me immensely.  I forgot to add....she is the one who gave me the insight on the use of the Form 2A -- and unfortunately there is no way around that.

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Chappie
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« Reply #107 on: December 11, 2016, 05:27:04 PM »


However, I take some degree of affront at your characterization of chaplains as "bible trivia experts".  Congratulations on taking someone who probably has a substantial amount of intellectual prowess in a much broader sense than your average person and treating them like some form of mental midget.  I would say at very least, that as a professional and a colleague you owe Chappie and his colleagues a sincere apology for that statement.

<Snip>

As far as education goes, many Christian colleges and schools of divinity have put together a pretty solid liberal arts education, that's a somewhat recent phenomenon. Yet, many religious colleges have no secular accreditation and some are parodies of higher education. So, my quip about (Christian) chaplains being experts at Bible trivia was a bit flippant.   Some are certainly well educated by anyone's measure.

<snip>


The minimum academic requirement for a CAP Chaplain is a Bachelor's degree from an accredited school (recognized by the DoD and is listed in the American Council on Education ACE directory).  A "waivered" Chaplain...needs to have the Bachelor Degree and 5 years of pastoral experience...non-waivered Chaplain needs 72 hours post-baccalaureate .   Over 15 years I have personally reviewed the applications of Chaplains and have denied many because they did not meet the criteria set forth in the CAPR 265-1.   And the statement made was a bit flippant. 
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Eclipse
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« Reply #108 on: December 11, 2016, 06:42:50 PM »

So regardless of intentions, the road to "here", or any of the religious sides of the discussion,
since implementation, the CDI program has: 

1 - Reduced the number of candidates to present Character Development sessions.

2 - Reduced the number of actual instructors to present Character Development sessions.

3 - Increased the work load and hassle factor of the average Commander.

4 - Negatively impacted the perishable progression of cadets in many squadrons.

...with no demonstrable increase in quality or quantity of CDI sessions, and NHQ seems either unaware of the issue
or unwilling to concede that it didn't work as hoped and make adjustments, except to try and extend a failed program
into additional areas it was never intended for.

As a matter of fact, the religious aspects of the argument are actually a distraction from the larger issue of why
otherwise highly qualified and experienced members are unable, absent separate and distinct appointment and approval
of both Wing and Region, to present CDI while random, inexperienced, potentially unqualified commanders are not only allowed, but
required to do the facilitations.

That may be Safe, but it is neither Efficient nor Effective, so it fails the sniff test.

And verbiage and directions about commanders "actively seeking CDIs" look great on a t-shirt, but don't grow people willing to do the
job, nor impart the necessary experience unto them by writ of a Form 12 and a check that cleared.  Meanwhile, the clock ticks,
cadets expire, and the status remains quo.
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Chappie
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« Reply #109 on: December 11, 2016, 07:25:21 PM »

You are certainly entitled to your view...but again, we don't see "eye to eye"....

The implementation of the MLO/CDI position was in 1995. Since then, especially in the past 2 years, there have been dramatic and significant changes that address the concerns/observations you posted:

Reduction of candidates and actual instructors????   So  an additional 74 Chaplains and 304 Character Development Instructors receiving appointments to a previously existing cadre of the  Chaplain Corps since January of 2015 is considered a reduction?  I realize that we discussed the figures before and your perspective on them...whether or not some or all were already conducting the CD session without an appointment and finally became "official"...the point is -- there is a CDI fulfilling the responsibilities according to the CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 265-1.


Increased work load and hassle factor of the average commander????  The Commander has always had to responsibility for the conducting of the Character Development program.  The requirements for appointment of a CDI, in fact decreases the work load, current regs require 2 graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron (one of the recent changes in regs regarding appointment of a CDI - complete TLC basic).  A commander can draw from a pool of those in the squadron who have TLC credit.

The mechanism, the process is in place for those you mention to become a CDI.   I am a highly qualified, experienced individual....there are things that I could do in CAP if I wanted to...but it would mean taking various courses or taking off my cross to do so -- in accordance with regs -- to do so.  The only thing that restricts me is my willingness to do so....CAP is not going to change the regs for my personal feelings or wants.

And I would disagree with you on "the status quo"....but then again, that is where we do not see "eye to eye".

There were/are things in the works under the direction of the current Chief that have addressed or addressing the CD program -- and it takes time and patience to develop.
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Alaric
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« Reply #110 on: December 11, 2016, 07:56:43 PM »



Increased work load and hassle factor of the average commander????  The Commander has always had to responsibility for the conducting of the Character Development program.  The requirements for appointment of a CDI, in fact decreases the work load, current regs require 2 graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron (one of the recent changes in regs regarding appointment of a CDI - complete TLC basic).  A commander can draw from a pool of those in the squadron who have TLC credit.



As a squadron commander of a small composite squadron I can tell you it is absolutely a burden on the Commander to hold Character Development.  There are not enough Chaplains and the fact that I can't designate someone else (like the DCC or other Cadet Programs officer) is ridiculous
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Chappie
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« Reply #111 on: December 11, 2016, 08:04:26 PM »



Increased work load and hassle factor of the average commander????  The Commander has always had to responsibility for the conducting of the Character Development program.  The requirements for appointment of a CDI, in fact decreases the work load, current regs require 2 graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron (one of the recent changes in regs regarding appointment of a CDI - complete TLC basic).  A commander can draw from a pool of those in the squadron who have TLC credit.



As a squadron commander of a small composite squadron I can tell you it is absolutely a burden on the Commander to hold Character Development.  There are not enough Chaplains and the fact that I can't designate someone else (like the DCC or other Cadet Programs officer) is ridiculous

Can you recruit one of the two senior members who have graduated from TLC (required by the CAPR 52-16) to fulfill this responsibility?   Have you contacted your wing chaplain to see if there is a neighboring squadron that can assist?  Just a couple of suggestions.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #112 on: December 11, 2016, 08:07:27 PM »

You are certainly entitled to your view...but again, we don't see "eye to eye"....

The implementation of the MLO/CDI position was in 1995. Since then, especially in the past 2 years, there have been dramatic and significant changes that address the concerns/observations you posted:

Reduction of candidates and actual instructors????   So  an additional 74 Chaplains and 304 Character Development Instructors receiving appointments to a previously existing cadre of the  Chaplain Corps since January of 2015 is considered a reduction?  I realize that we discussed the figures before and your perspective on them...whether or not some or all were already conducting the CD session without an appointment and finally became "official"...the point is -- there is a CDI fulfilling the responsibilities according to the CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 265-1.
Yes, 100% absolutely it is a reduction. You keep reciting those numbers as if they have any meaning out of the larger context, and they don't. 

Before the CDI mandate, EVERY SENIOR on the CC's whim could facilitate the sessions.  Now it's only CDIs Chaplains, and the CC. There is no way, in any context,
that this will "increase" the pool of available facilitators, because "all minus some equals less".

Also, how many of those additional CDIs are also CC's?  Either since command appointment or before? Those aren't +1, those are net zero.

Increased work load and hassle factor of the average commander????  The Commander has always had to responsibility for the conducting of the Character Development program.  The requirements for appointment of a CDI, in fact decreases the work load, current regs require 2 graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron (one of the recent changes in regs regarding appointment of a CDI - complete TLC basic).  A commander can draw from a pool of those in the squadron who have TLC credit.

Not at will.  Were this the case, you'd have less push back.  As of today, in addition to the qualified / willing people, a CDI requires an outside endorsement, wing, and region approval.
This isnt' the kind of thing that happens overnight, and like all things CAP, the need for approval opens up the door to disapproval, which means it is, in fact NOT a CC's discretionary appointment,
nor can they simply "draw from the pool".

For starters, I'd be willing to bet that in many (most) units, at least one of the two mandated to have TLC is the CC, and in many case the other is "not".

The issue here is the average fly-over "Charter Minimum Composite" who just wants to get through the week as best they can and follow the rules when they know them.

Can you recruit one of the two senior members who have graduated from TLC

From where?  The Civil Air Patrol Academy?  University of Civil Air Patrol?  Poach them from another squadron?

CAP can barely keep the doors open today - the membership trends look like a Google Maps route from Oregon to Florida and
these magic seniors will come from where? Bearing in mind also that there is ZERO national recruiting assistance (sorry NIN)
or strategic plan beyond "Have an open house!" , which in itself is part of the problem we're discussing here.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 08:12:34 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Chappie
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« Reply #113 on: December 11, 2016, 09:00:51 PM »

You are certainly entitled to your view...but again, we don't see "eye to eye"....

The implementation of the MLO/CDI position was in 1995. Since then, especially in the past 2 years, there have been dramatic and significant changes that address the concerns/observations you posted:

Reduction of candidates and actual instructors????   So  an additional 74 Chaplains and 304 Character Development Instructors receiving appointments to a previously existing cadre of the  Chaplain Corps since January of 2015 is considered a reduction?  I realize that we discussed the figures before and your perspective on them...whether or not some or all were already conducting the CD session without an appointment and finally became "official"...the point is -- there is a CDI fulfilling the responsibilities according to the CAPR 52-16 and CAPR 265-1.
Yes, 100% absolutely it is a reduction. You keep reciting those numbers as if they have any meaning out of the larger context, and they don't. 

Before the CDI mandate, EVERY SENIOR on the CC's whim could facilitate the sessions.  Now it's only CDIs Chaplains, and the CC. There is no way, in any context,
that this will "increase" the pool of available facilitators, because "all minus some equals less".

Also, how many of those additional CDIs are also CC's?  Either since command appointment or before? Those aren't +1, those are net zero.

Increased work load and hassle factor of the average commander????  The Commander has always had to responsibility for the conducting of the Character Development program.  The requirements for appointment of a CDI, in fact decreases the work load, current regs require 2 graduates of TLC to serve in a cadet/composite squadron (one of the recent changes in regs regarding appointment of a CDI - complete TLC basic).  A commander can draw from a pool of those in the squadron who have TLC credit.

Not at will.  Were this the case, you'd have less push back.  As of today, in addition to the qualified / willing people, a CDI requires an outside endorsement, wing, and region approval.
This isnt' the kind of thing that happens overnight, and like all things CAP, the need for approval opens up the door to disapproval, which means it is, in fact NOT a CC's discretionary appointment,
nor can they simply "draw from the pool".

For starters, I'd be willing to bet that in many (most) units, at least one of the two mandated to have TLC is the CC, and in many case the other is "not".

The issue here is the average fly-over "Charter Minimum Composite" who just wants to get through the week as best they can and follow the rules when they know them.

Can you recruit one of the two senior members who have graduated from TLC

From where?  The Civil Air Patrol Academy?  University of Civil Air Patrol?  Poach them from another squadron?

CAP can barely keep the doors open today - the membership trends look like a Google Maps route from Oregon to Florida and
these magic seniors will come from where? Bearing in mind also that there is ZERO national recruiting assistance (sorry NIN)
or strategic plan beyond "Have an open house!" , which in itself is part of the problem we're discussing here.


Please ask the Squadron Commanders where these 74 Chaplains and 302 Character Development Instructors were assigned whether or not their appointments had meaning.

And was EVERY SENIOR member that could be designated on a CC's whim familiar with the curriculum or the program or were theyjust putting a "check" in the box?   Just handing someone a lesson and say "teach this next meeting", is that providing cadets something worthwhile?   You know as well as I do, people who believe in something and is committed to it, certainly performs better than someone does something because they are either "strong-armed" into it or gets selected because they "drew the short straw".  That goes to the quality of the lesson presented or program.

Again...the point I was making was that these appointments were done in compliance to current regs. -- which I trust has great value to local squadrons.

The average appointment made by the Chief is less than a week, once it gets in his hands.  The process is held up at wing or region due to an incomplete application packet.   The Wing Chaplain will only disapprove an application submitted by a squadron commander if: 1) the applicant does not meet the criteria set in the CAPR 265-1, or 2) in the interview with the prospective CDI there is a sense that the person does not fully grasp of their responsibility as a CDI and willingness to work in a pluralistic environment.

If the CC has TLC, well, CD falls under their purview -- and under the current CAPR 52-16 -- certainly can apply to be a CDI ;)

And I agree about the average "fly-over Charter Minimum Composite" who wants to get through the week as best they and follow the rules when they know them.   A couple of things that come to mind....how do they learn the rules?   There should be mentoring from someone who knows the organization and the way it operates (culture and rules) -- and -- I would surmise that throughout the exchanges on this thread in recent days, there have been both entertaining and enlightening moments...hopefully, more enlightening as I have endeavored to clarify/explain/share items from the Chaplain Corps side of things -- which your average member has had no exposure to.

Hate to return to those "pesky" numbers that you feel have no meaning....these appointments were all made once the word got out about the changes the Chaplain Corps was making in the "status quo".   People who did not meet the CDI requirements prior to 2014/2015 began applying.  We took seriously the concerns voiced by commanders (and members) regarding the "religious endorsement" and the academic requirement and did something about it to make appointments for CDIs more attainable (letter of recommendation from anyone -- except squadron commander which is a given on F35A -- and tying the academic requirement to the existing TLC requirement in the CAPR 52-16 for a local squadron -- and adding the Basic Instructor Course - available on-line CAP....a specialty track for CDIs has been developed by CDIs that is far more substantial than the previous one. 

There are challenges that CAP faces in all aspects...and I know that the Chaplain Corps is not sitting by idly.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 09:06:19 PM by Chappie » Logged
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Eclipse
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« Reply #114 on: December 11, 2016, 09:52:59 PM »

OK, seriously - how can there be "incomplete packets" you need a F35 and a Goodfella letter.
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Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,032

« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2016, 10:00:08 PM »

OK, seriously - how can there be "incomplete packets" you need a F35 and a Goodfella letter.

Try at the Wing Chaplain's desk...either the TLC or BIC has not been completed or the Goodfella letter is missing

Try at the Region Chaplain's desk...the Wing Commander did not sign off.

Try the packet gets sent directly to NHQ minus approving signatures at Wing and Region.

It has happened :(
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SouthernCross
Recruit

Posts: 24

« Reply #116 on: December 11, 2016, 10:38:22 PM »

The statement was made, "OK, seriously - how can there be "incomplete packets" you need a F35 and a Goodfella letter."

If the submitted letter of recommendation does not meet the criteria as prescribed in CAPR 265-1, 7.a.(2), the letter cannot not be accepted by the wing chaplain, such as in the case of a letter being written by a family member or a CAP member from the applicant's community.

The last three Chaplain Corps applications I had to be approve a few months ago (when I was a wing chaplain) were done in an expeditious manner because all three of them had all what it was required at the time they submitted their application. From the time I received the package to the time the appointment was made by the Chief, it only took...

Chaplain 1 - 11 days
Chaplain 2 -  9 days
CDI - 7 days

In the case of other chaplains, it took months, some times more than a year, to get them appointed. Part of the reason was due because of an incomplete package, e.g., no endorsement received by NHQ or delay in receiving educational transcripts, etc.). However, since the current Chief took the helm, the approval process has been expedited.

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KASSRCrashResearch
Member

Posts: 66

« Reply #117 on: December 11, 2016, 10:41:46 PM »


I said nothing about anyone's intellect.


Technically, you did.  If someone were to say about me "You know....Steve is nothing but a forensic trivia expert", it is TECHNICALLY correct at its core but it ignores the reality of what one can accomplish with their knowledge.  Everything at some level is effectively trivia.  The difference between practical knowledge and trivia is the intellect that the person has to apply that trivia to a real world situation (drunken games of Trivial Pursuit notwithstanding).

And while there are questionable and even predatory schools out there the same can be said for a lot of technical training programs (ITT Tech for example).  Hell, for the most part, a large majority of what CAP relies upon isn't independently accredited.  If we're talking the "it suffices because we say it does" no longer being valid then we might as well close up show. That's one reason why it's so hard to change stuff as the external standards move on.




Quote
Lets not be afraid to question anything in CAP that doesn't make sense. 

I am many things.   Afraid of calling out bull**** when I encounter it is not one of them.  Chappie can attest that he and I have had complicated and lengthy discussions about my disagreement with certain aspects of the way the chaplain program is structured.  As a (soon to be) CAP officer, a professional and as a man, I am obligated to speak up in a polite, professional and respectful manner.  Does it mean I will get my way?  No.  Does it mean that because a reasonably competent person can sit back and pick holes in the way specific matters are handled or the way this or that is done or how a few individuals behave that the whole system should be scrapped? Certainly not. 

Quote
Don't be afraid to question the future role of the Chaplaincy in CAP.

To use an example, let's say that you have an officer who is absolutely unwilling to listen to any criticism of their opinion and results to encouraging folks to use a nihilistic fallacy (example: "change for the sake of change"), appeal to novelty ("it's inherently better than the old way because it's new"), a non-argument argument ("draw your own conclusions"), false dichotomy, guilt by association (or the more extreme form of this which is the heavy-handed and almost Machiavellian "for my my enemies, nothing" fallacy) and an appeal to paranoia ("We have to do something so don't be afraid to....").   The everything about the way the person carries themselves- at least with regards to a particular matter- reeks of mala fides.  Do you trust that person to have your best interests at heart?  Do you have faith (no pun intended) that they will not cut and run the moment things do not go their way?   Do you follow their advice? Do you want anything to do with them? Most people are going to say 'no'. They may be, at heart, an awesome and incredibly ethical person but if they cannot act in a way that is what is expected out of a professional then not much else matters.  I learned this myself the hard way as a young EMS supervisor.   

At risk of violating my rule against counseling someone in public, I must say something here.  The only thing I am questioning the wisdom of a future role in CAP for out of this discussion is you.  That's not because of anything other than your behavior.   You may be the brightest person on this discussion because you are obviously not lacking in intelligence so far as I can tell.  You may know better than every person in the organization.  None of that matters if you carry yourself in a way that makes people think you have no respect for anyone who dares to disagree or are willing to badger someone into going along with your plan. 

You have to remember that when you speak, you are not only representing yourself but your unit, the organization and everyone involved with it.  Especially when you are criticizing others in the organization, you absolutely have to lead by example and with all due respect, you simply are not doing that here.  Regardless of how antitheistic you might be in your personal life, unless you can demonstrably argue unequivocal harm or waste of resources, then you really are lacking firm footing for your argument.  Thus, your personal feelings need to be kept in check and probably to yourself the moment you don a uniform or speak in a setting where your words are tied to something bigger than yourself if you cannot express them in a professional manner.  Part of that is also knowing when to admit you have overstepped and apologize or fall on your sword in extreme cases. 

My advice- for what it is worth- is that you might be wise to watch your tone, learn to pick your battles and to remember that attacking uphill against an entrenched and competent enemy (no offense Chappie) is almost always a losing proposition.  Even if you are the most skilled leader and tactician out there, sometimes you have to let a fight go rather than letting tactical goals drive strategic decision-making.  People including probably the greatest military mind and one of the finest gentlemen this country has ever produced, Robert E. Lee, have struggled with it at times (two words: Pickett's Charge). 

You (hopefully) live and you learn.  That's all that can be asked of a person and a professional. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 10:45:39 PM by KASSRCrashResearch » Logged
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,786
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« Reply #118 on: December 11, 2016, 11:01:09 PM »

OK, we're going to click this off for a couple of days, until some of you can cool off a bit. The arguments are going in circles, and no one is convincing anyone else to change their opinion.

If someone has something fresh to present, PM me, and we'll turn it back on.
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Dave Bowles
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