Hurricane Matthew Preparation and Response Oct 2016

[Eclipse]

http://www.capnhq.gov/news/Documents/Hurricane_Matthew_NR_1.pdf

"MAXWELL AIR FORCE BASE, Ala. – Members of the Florida Wing and their counterparts in
other Civil Air Patrol wings along the Atlantic Coast are busy preparing for the impact and
potential aftermath of Hurricane Matthew, a Category 3 storm expected to make landfall in the
Bahamas on Thursday and skirt the Florida coastline on Friday. "





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8huapsaouU

Personally, I'm looking forward to a Friday morning filled with reporters doing dumb things all up and down the
Eastern Seaboard...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO2Oqymv6fw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewRLlAN4ofc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_12WDZXeys

Interesting hurricane study:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Rw1vJBnINg

[NIN]

Five-ish years back,  the Susquehanna River flooded in the Scranton Wilkes-Barre area and my buddy and his family moved every thing important to the 2nd floor and evacuated to family in NJ.

After a couple of days wondering if they still had a house or not, he was watching The Weather Channel and Jim Cantore was on a boat floating down the middle of a street broadcasting live in that area.

Cameraman pans to the left and there's my buddy's house: the water line is midway up the front windows.

Who knew you could count on the Weather Channel and Jim Cantore for real time damage assessment?



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

Cameraman pans to the left and there's my buddy's house: the water line is midway up the front windows.

(embedding disabled on the below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJrEBXcMUc

[NIN]

Heh, same broadcast, just not in this particular clip.  His house is probably a minute or two further on.

[Eclipse]

They are starting to line up out there like a String of pearls...



http://www.nbc-2.com/story/33313425/tropical-storm-nicole-develops-in-the-western-atlantic

"Nicole is not expected to impact any landmass. In fact, Hurricane Matthew will prevent Nicole from
pushing toward the United States, Bermuda or the Bahamas.

It is unlikely Nicole will become a hurricane at this time."

However one model this AM on the Today Show has Matthew doing a loop on itself back to the
SouthWest being held in by Nicole.

Attractions and theme parks, including Kennedy, starting to announce closures, including the Orlando Eye,
which I've never heard of, but would probably be either the most amazing or most terrifying place to be in a hurricane.

[Eclipse]

I received this today presumably off te UAV registration database (my son has a quadrotor):



Site referenced: https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/

[seacamper]

Hey All,
I am trying to find a regulation or source that requires each squadron member to participate in a daily "call down" during a hurricane. Our state is under a hurricane watch, and the squadron is requiring we check in every day, or else the squadron commander will have to come to our house and check on us. Where is that written? I guess its not a bad idea, but I can't find it.

[THRAWN]

Sounds like a VOCO situation. Verbal order of the commanding officer.

[THRAWN]

I received this today presumably off te UAV registration database (my son has a quadrotor):



Site referenced: https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/PilotWeb/

You beat me to it.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It is not written... But it does not have to be.

The squadron CC is responsible of his squadron's response during an emergency, and he probably received a direct order of knowing where his resources are during this watch from his Group or Wing CC.

Bottom line... Your CC decided it was a good idea, this is a bad time to start criticizing what your state response is. Do not add to the tension. Go with the flow, and critici suggest afterwards.

[Eclipse]

^ +1 It's not written but it's also not a bad idea.

Safety of responders and ancillary personnel is always a first-priority and also a problem in situations like this.
I don't think there's been a major storm in the last decade that hasn't wound up having a few CAP people in
need of locating or actual assistance.

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about it, just check in and move on.

If he's smart he'll take texts and emails, too, but whatever.

[RRLE]

I'm just curious on how someone is supposed to check-in on a daily basis. FPL (Florida Power and Light) is predicting over 2 million people will lose power in FL. Once the power is out, the cell towers run on batteries. During the last hurricane, about 10 years ago, the cell tower batteries were depleted inside 24 hours.

My land line came back within 24 hours, but how many members still have those? The cell towers were out for 5-7 days.

From following the discussions here, most members do not have CAP radios. So how does one check-in in the absence of power and cell phones. I think the commander is going to be doing a lot of driving around - assuming the streets are open and not flooded.

[Luis R. Ramos]

It will be up to them to find an alternate.

At this point it is too early to be having these discussions.

Seacamper is the one asking about checking in. He is not from Florida, unless Florida Power and Light works  in South Carolina, your question is not valid.

Please wait until the emergency is over then criticize/comment/complain or alabate/celebrate.

Let those in power carry out their plan, be it good or bad in your eyes. Do not make them doubt their response as it may lead to a change of plans in mid-ops. A bad idea when things are crappy.

I am sure they have a Plan B.

Or it may come to nothing, by the hurricane dying to the sea...

[stillamarine]

I'm just curious on how someone is supposed to check-in on a daily basis. FPL (Florida Power and Light) is predicting over 2 million people will lose power in FL. Once the power is out, the cell towers run on batteries. During the last hurricane, about 10 years ago, the cell tower batteries were depleted inside 24 hours.

My land line came back within 24 hours, but how many members still have those? The cell towers were out for 5-7 days.

From following the discussions here, most members do not have CAP radios. So how does one check-in in the absence of power and cell phones. I think the commander is going to be doing a lot of driving around - assuming the streets are open and not flooded.

After Katrina Verizon put generators in all their towers. When Gustav hit I had no problem using my phone minus some of the locations I was in were in the boonies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Luis R. Ramos]

This response from StillaMarine is positive.

Maybe the towers in the affected area are protected the same way. The companies providing coverage for the cell towers may have made different plans to prevent disruptions on their cell tower service, and whether these will be effective or not cannot be known at this time.

Options:

1. Install generators in towers serviced by other companies as done on the Verizon towers.
2. Install solar cells at the towers to recharge batteries.
3. Designate brigades to work in conjunction with electric companies to restore service to the cell towers as a priority.

All-lets hope that everything works as planned to mitigate the disaster in the worst case, and that Matthew moves to the sea and dies down in the best of cases.

Let us trust that the DOS and CCs of the areas affected have done their best, and done their job.

[Eclipse]

COWs are a big piece of the response plans.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/24/technology/carriers-hurricanes/

http://newsroom.sprint.com/news-releases/sprint-statement-on-hurricane-matthew.htm

http://towerpoint.com/preparing-for-disaster-carriers-plan-for-2015-hurricane-season/

http://www.wirelessweek.com/article/2015/09/how-carriers-are-preparing-unthinkable

[Eclipse]

Disney closed for only 4th time in history...

http://wdwnt.com/blog/2016/10/video-see-walt-disney-worlds-magic-kingdom-prepares-hurricane/

http://wdwnt.com/blog/2016/10/update-walt-disney-world-closes-theme-parks-early-today-day-friday/

[PHall]

This response from StillaMarine is positive.

Maybe the towers in the affected area are protected the same way. The companies providing coverage for the cell towers may have made different plans to prevent disruptions on their cell tower service, and whether these will be effective or not cannot be known at this time.

Options:

1. Install generators in towers serviced by other companies as done on the Verizon towers.
2. Install solar cells at the towers to recharge batteries.
3. Designate brigades to work in conjunction with electric companies to restore service to the cell towers as a priority.

All-lets hope that everything works as planned to mitigate the disaster in the worst case, and that Matthew moves to the sea and dies down in the best of cases.

Let us trust that the DOS and CCs of the areas affected have done their best, and done their job.

Speaking as someone who actually works for a telephone company.

Generators at Cell Sites are nice to have, but they come with their own problems too.
They need a fuel supply. The standard is a four day supply.
They need normal routine maintenance. Usually every 90 days or so.

Cell sites normally have back-up batteries that are supposed to be good for 8 hours.
Solar panels can be used to help keep the batteries up.

[RRLE]

3. Designate brigades to work in conjunction with electric companies to restore service to the cell towers as a priority.

The FPL priorities in my neck of the woods, agreed to with local government, are schools and hospitals first.

The schools may be a priority since many shelters are located in them and they may want the power back before the generator fuel runs out.

[LTC Don]

I'm just curious on how someone is supposed to check-in on a daily basis.

I would like to point out, that BITD, when communications was a 'thing' in CAP, checking in would not be a (major) problem.  The number of member owned radios out there in the wild would shock you.  Now, CAP communications is a hollow shell of what once was a thriving nationwide system.  Alas, I'm an old fart now, and am prone to reminiscing about the good ol' days that sometimes weren't actually all that great.


Kudos to the commander wanting to keep track of his people.  This is a terrible situation for SC, GA, and FL.  In all my years I've never seen a storm take this kind of track and be this strong.  North Carolina stands ready to help in any way we can.

[seacamper]

It is not written... But it does not have to be.

The squadron CC is responsible of his squadron's response during an emergency, and he probably received a direct order of knowing where his resources are during this watch from his Group or Wing CC.

Bottom line... Your CC decided it was a good idea, this is a bad time to start criticizing what your state response is. Do not add to the tension. Go with the flow, and critici suggest afterwards.

Luis, buddy, I am going to have to call you out on this one. In what universe is asking where the guidance for a policy is construed as criticizing my state's policy? Are you one of those guys in CAP that feels the need to belittle people asking reasonable questions? Hey, thanks for all the advice on how to react in a crisis. I guess I did not get that on my 40 combat sorties or the other 100+ combat support sorties I flew in various conflicts in the last 25 years. I ask the question because I am being loaded up with new jobs, and as the new Stan Eval Officer, I wanted to explain this policy to the parents of some cadets that were asking me.
I am pretty familiar with CAPR 60-3 and it does not mention this. The Wing does not have a Supplement to CAPR 60-3 for good reasons. It is tightly controlled.
From CAPR 60-3:
1-2. Supplements and Waivers. Supplements to this regulation cannot be issued below the
wing level (except Congressional Squadron) and require region commander, NHQ CAP/DO, and
CAP-USAF/XO approval. Requests for waivers or supplements must be submitted via chain of
command to the CAP and CAP-USAF region commanders and then to NHQ CAP/DO for further
consideration.

I also went to the Wing's Forms, Publications and Authorizations page which had nothing listed under regulation supplements, so I went on to look for Wing pamphlets. Nothing was listed under our CAPR 0-2, dated 10 Nov 2013. It turns out our CAPR 0-2 is outdated because the Wing produced a Wing Pamphlet, 60-004 which is the Wing's Hurricane  plan in July of 2016. It explains the guidelines for accountability. No, Luis,
"It is not written... But it does not have to be" is actually incorrect.  If it is a policy it has to be codified in some way, or it is just a "Word Of Mouth" (WOM).  That means it is totally unsupported. Now Luis, I know I do not need to explain this to you, with your expertise in all areas,  but the CAP mimics the Air Force's publication policies.  A Manual or Regulation are binding. They use the words "Shall" and "Will" that are mandatory. A Pamphlet indicates guidelines, techniques, or recommendations. So I am now able to explain to the parents that per the Wing Pamphlet, we are recommending that their kids keep in contact using the phone tree, and I can show them or send them a copy of the pamphlet. I was also able to clear up many of the misconceptions about this policy. 
So Luis, next time if you don't really know, you should just say so. Also, you and others seem to have a hostile ownership of CAP. You attack very reasonable questions and put the asker on the defense. You exude disdain and a condescending tone which makes it harder to recruit ES professionals into my squadron, because they think we are a joke. They have run into people in CAP that have a qualification or two, that berate them with attacks like yours above, accuse them of stupid things, and you wonder why they won't stay. It is because they do not want to work with amateurs. 
Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it. Is that like Word of Mouth (WOM) which is also not a thing?

[SarDragon]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

[seacamper]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

[Spaceman3750]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

The answer you are looking for here is no, there is no regulation requiring this.

However, Florida Wing has apparently developed a hurricane plan around keeping accountability for members such that the wing can respond rapidly to any requests for assistance following the storm's departure. You are currently at HURCON 1, which is described here: http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx. This condition of the plan requires commanders to provide daily situation reports to group HQ and keep accountability for all personnel.

So what your commander is trying to do is follow the directions of higher HQ to maintain a state of readiness. It sounds like maybe your wing has been to this party a couple of times before. If you really don't want to respond to the call-down, I'm sure you can nicely ask your commander to exclude you - you are, after all, a volunteer. Just don't be surprised when you don't get to participate in any of the response activities because nobody told you, because you didn't want to participate in the response plan.

EDIT: You are in SC, not FL. I made an assumption. Disregard. If any FLWG people are complaining, see my expertly crafted message above .

[RazorbackPride]

+1
Just do what the commander says, eh?

[Spaceman3750]

From Facebook, it looks like SC is doing some good work monitoring evacuation routes as the storm approaches, hand-in-hand with SC ANG and state agencies.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Seacamper,

Sorry if you were looking for guidance. However, in an emergency like this, the best guidance is to do as your commander asked. Guidance starts like this: "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?" Questioning starts like this: "Where is it written that commanders can...?"

Your message sounded more questioning than asking for guidance.

[seacamper]

[snipped]

Now, can someone point out where "VOCO" is authorized or even recognized as a thing? I have never heard of it.

Scenario: UoD is normally working uniform for all hands on Friday. On Wednesday, the commander is informed that DVs will be showing up on Friday. He passes that info along by word-of-mouth, and decrees that the UoD on Friday is now a specific flavor of dress uniform.

That is verbal order of the commander.

Oh, OK, a legitimate, authorized, codified uniform change covered by CAPM 39-1.  Perfect. It is an alteration of something covered in a Regulation or Manual. I 100% get that. Neither a VOCO or a WOM supports this:
"It is not written... But it does not have to be."
Now, I am not being sarcastic at all here because I could not find that through a quick search and I am unfamiliar with VOCO, being an AF puke, is VOCO in any of our CAP literature as a form of communication? Please do not think I am slamming you, I am really asking the way this forum should work. I am seeking knowledge.

The answer you are looking for here is no, there is no regulation requiring this.

However, Florida Wing has apparently developed a hurricane plan around keeping accountability for members such that the wing can respond rapidly to any requests for assistance following the storm's departure. You are currently at HURCON 1, which is described here: http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx. This condition of the plan requires commanders to provide daily situation reports to group HQ and keep accountability for all personnel.

So what your commander is trying to do is follow the directions of higher HQ to maintain a state of readiness. It sounds like maybe your wing has been to this party a couple of times before. If you really don't want to respond to the call-down, I'm sure you can nicely ask your commander to exclude you - you are, after all, a volunteer. Just don't be surprised when you don't get to participate in any of the response activities because nobody told you, because you didn't want to participate in the response plan.

EDIT: You are in SC, not FL. I made an assumption. Disregard. If any FLWG people are complaining, see my expertly crafted message above .

Pretty cool. Working with the F 16 guard guys from McEntire.
Anyhoo, I transferred from SC to FL and could not find the FLWG Hurricane Plan because it was erroneously not listed in the Wing's 0-2 reg, so I did not know what to tell the parents about the call downs. Some of the parents WERE complaining, and that was why I came here initially and had to endure the derision of one of my fellow CAP officers for trying to find the answer that you provided.. I think you can see from the post above that I found the answer, and I am fine with the procedure, I just wanted to actually find the document so I understood it and could explain it.
I am not sure why you thought I did not want to be included in the program or the call down, I was simply trying to find the documentation to explain it. Somehow, Luis decided I wanted to buck the system and wanted to criticize the state's emergency plan, which was not at all in any of my posts. Go back and reread it, in fact, I wrote:
"So I am now able to explain to the parents that per the Wing Pamphlet, we are recommending that their kids keep in contact using the phone tree, and I can show them or send them a copy of the pamphlet. I was also able to clear up many of the misconceptions about this policy."
THAT is what I was looking for.

[Eclipse]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

[seacamper]

Seacamper,

Sorry if you were looking for guidance. However, in an emergency like this, the best guidance is to do as your commander asked. Guidance starts like this: "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?" Questioning starts like this: "Where is it written that commanders can...?"

Your message sounded more questioning than asking for guidance.

Louis, it seems we are in different universes. I do not need to come up to some strange level of your definition of guidance verses questioning. Your above post is not helping your case. I guess I am trying to say I think you are a nut. Here is what I wrote:

Hey All,
I am trying to find a regulation or source that requires each squadron member to participate in a daily "call down" during a hurricane. Our state is under a hurricane watch, and the squadron is requiring we check in every day, or else the squadron commander will have to come to our house and check on us. Where is that written? I guess its not a bad idea, but I can't find it.

I think that stands on it's own. I was fine with the concept, I just couldn't find it. It was not in a national reg, and it was not listed in any of the Wing's regs,
http://flwg.us/resources-2/forms-publications.aspx
http://epublishing.sercap.us/publications/supplements/florida-2.aspx
Or in the PDF document entitled "CAPR 0-2, S-1, Numerical Index of Florida Wing Supplements and Pamphlets"
It was actually listed here:
http://www.flwg.us/hurcon/hurcon-1.aspx
As you can see, it is actually a FLWG Pamphlet, but it was not listed in CAPR 0-2, S-1, Numerical Index of Florida Wing Supplements and Pamphlets, so it did not stand out. It was listed as a separate document, and I did not find it right off the bat, which is why I came here.I thought I would come to a group of professionals who would lead me to the then elusive regulation, manual or pamphlet. I did not need your snarky post assuming the worst about my intentions. Also, I am not sure why you feel that you need to push the notion that when a squadron commander says something, everyone needs to shout "How High Sir?". I have never had an actual squadron commander act like that, and when I was a squadron commander if I had an idiot like that, I would have gotten rid of him. I want officers that ask about where things are written, because then we are all making sure we are in compliance of our complex regulation system. So Louis, lets try and get off on a better foot next time, and assume the best about people trying to find out about CAP, and lets not hold them to starting threads starting with "How can I do a call-in, as my commander asked?".  I frankly think that is just.......weird.
I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

[Spaceman3750]

I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

You must be new. Welcome to CAPTalk. :angel:

[seacamper]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?
On your second snide comment, It is not the position of the US Air Force or the CAP I know, that when someone wants to know where something is written, they are tinged with "You can't make me".  It is more understandable that those that do NOT know where something is written get defensive. What am I missing here. We have complex rules and a complex mission here. We are all professionals. We were supposed to study the regs before we got qualified, and I just do not think it is a crime when something strange can not be explained to simply open up the regs and look for it. You are flying a mission, and something complex comes up. I hope you have a copy of CAPR 60-1with you. Look it up. If any crewmmeber at anytime questioned if what I was doing was per the reg, I would be glad he/she was asking. I certainly would not think they were exhibiting a "You can't make me" attitude. In fact, if I thought there was a crewmember that had a "You can't make me" attitude, I would simply not take off to begin with for safety of flight reasons.   What is wrong with this site?

[seacamper]

I think this forum can be a great place to exchange ideas among professionals. Why does it need to be so painful?

You must be new. Welcome to CAPTalk. :angel:

I guess I need to figure it out. So what, a couple internet bullies run this site and beat everyone into submission? Great. What a shame. It could be a great program.

[seacamper]

It does look like lower Florida is surviving. Good luck to N Fla, Ga and the Carolinas.

[Eclipse]

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The proper response is "That's outside my lane, please address it through the chain - in this case that would be the CC, CDC, or perhaps the ESO."

One of the biggest problems CAP has is everyone wants to "help" and gets themselves in the middle of things that don't hit their OPR.

If I issue a proper directive as a CC, especially one being pushed down the chain from higher HQ, I certainly don't expect, nor would I tolerate subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed, or addressed through proper channels.

[RogueLeader]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The reason that they shouldn't be asking you, is because it is not in your lane to make/enforce those calls.  There are polite ways of directing them into the proper lane.  I totally understand why they are coming to you, as you are a face that is familiar (in more ways than one in some cases) so it is natural.  It is very reasonable to question what is not "normal" procedures and/or why they are put in place.

As to your second concern, unfortunately, you fell into the cultural pitfalls that is CapTalk.  There is history of many members- mostly cadets- that get news that they don't want, seem arbitrary, etc and come here with trying to find a way around the Commanders prerogative.  See the below for an example:

Are Boonie hats allowed while wearing CAP corporate uniform?  If Squadron Commander says no, how do I convince him otherwise?

This has happened many, many times.  Those that have been here quite a while have dealt with it for so long, can tend to glaze over some details, due to the presentation.  I myself was under the (incorrect) assumption that you were trying to get around it.  I know better now, and I apologize for it.  It takes a while for post history to give others an understanding of who you are, and how to interpret your posts, because otherwise there is no situational context for letters on a screen, unfortunately.

I hope this helps.

[seacamper]

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The proper response is "That's outside my lane, please address it through the chain - in this case that would be the CC, CDC, or perhaps the ESO."

One of he biggest problems CAP has is everyone wants to "help" and gets themselves in the middle of things that don't hit the OPR.

If I issue a proper directive as a CC, especially one being pushed down the chain from higher HQ, I certainly don't expect, nor would I tolerate subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed,
or addressed through proper channels.

Well I am sure you are a joy to work for. So your answer is "Even though I know the answer, I can not give it to you because I need to follow a non existent chain of command for your question".  There is no chain of command for that question. That is a general question that could be answered by anyone who actually knew the answer and had the document in their hand. That is why I was seeking the document. I am the new Deputy Commander as well as the PAO, Recruitment, Historian and Stan Eval. Many of these parents came to me for recruitment, and I will be [darn]ed if I am going to give them the run around over a piece of paper that should be in their hands anyway. Am I on the wrong website? The CAP in CAP Talk does mean Civil Air Patrol right? Not Convoluted Arrogant Popinjay Talk?
In this case a directive was properly made, and it was actually disseminated by Word Of Mouth so the actual document was not in hand. As the CDS there was a question of what would happen if someone did not answer the call down. I wanted the exact verbiage, so I came here to ask if anyone heard of it. No one questioned the CC's authority, in fact my job as the CDS is to be a  problem solver, and to handle things at my own level, which I did. You wouldn't "tolerate" subordinate staff questioning them, trying to justify them, or "looking into things", I expect them to be disseminated as directed and followed, or addressed through proper channels.? LOL
Well, if you want them disseminated as directed, wouldn't you want them understood so other people would understand them? I mean you can stamp your foot at them all you want, but if there needs to be a clear understanding, how about printing the Pamphlet and handing it to them? When they try and understand it, are they "questioning" the directive? Would you tolerate that? What is wrong with you guys?

[seacamper]

I guess one of my questions would be "Why is the Stan / Eval officer being bugged by parents about anything the CC is directing them to do?"

From a culture perspective, generally people asking "Where is it written?" are doing so tinged with the tone of "you can't make me",
so it should be understandable.

LOL. Really? You are making my point for me.The answer to the first question is because I am a human who interacts with others. Do you really not understand that I have kids in the program, and that my kids recruited other kids, their parents would ask me about the call down because they know me? I am wondering what you would say? "Sorry, I am the Stan Eval Officer, why are you bugging me?"   Are you that divorced from reality in your CAP world that you could not have answered your own question?

The reason that they shouldn't be asking you, is because it is not in your lane to make/enforce those calls.  There are polite ways of directing them into the proper lane.  I totally understand why they are coming to you, as you are a face that is familiar (in more ways than one in some cases) so it is natural.  It is very reasonable to question what is not "normal" procedures and/or why they are put in place.

As to your second concern, unfortunately, you fell into the cultural pitfalls that is CapTalk.  There is history of many members- mostly cadets- that get news that they don't want, seem arbitrary, etc and come here with trying to find a way around the Commanders prerogative.  See the below for an example:

Are Boonie hats allowed while wearing CAP corporate uniform?  If Squadron Commander says no, how do I convince him otherwise?

This has happened many, many times.  Those that have been here quite a while have dealt with it for so long, can tend to glaze over some details, due to the presentation.  I myself was under the (incorrect) assumption that you were trying to get around it.  I know better now, and I apologize for it.  It takes a while for post history to give others an understanding of who you are, and how to interpret your posts, because otherwise there is no situational context for letters on a screen, unfortunately.

I hope this helps.

Ah! Now that makes sense! Thank you.

[spaatzmom]

Wow.  First seacamper, welcome to the forum and to your stated service that was revealed to us only after you felt put upon bu someone who was trying to help answer your question and has been a member for quite some time.  After reading the entire thread several times and mulling over its content, I must ask, Why are you being the only openly hostile person on it?  Context of a post is really difficult to judge especially with a new poster.  We do the best given what is initially written.  Yes all to often, a new member usually a gung ho full metal jacket type teen will misinterpret the response and blow something meant to be helpful into a personal attack when it isn't.  Not too often do we have that with adults but when we do, it generally comes from those who have been active duty and are experiencing some difficulty adjusting to the civilian aspect of CAP .... we are not the military.

I will chalk this up to a bit of all of the above and hope you have a smoother experience in the future.

[THRAWN]

OP, you seem to misunderstand the role of the commander. Eclipse and I have had our professional deltas but I think wr can agree on this: if you were in my group and acted like this, you would not be in my group for long. You need to take some time and understand the authority and responsibility of a commander. Once you understand and internalize those definitions, then you can question the authority of those appointed over you to give legal and enforcable orders.

[SarDragon]

OK, folks, the measuring contest is done. If anyone has anything fresh and relevant to add, do so. Otherwise we're gonna click it off.

[Eclipse]

8:40 PM: The St. Johns County Sheriff's Office would like you to know that the Alligator Farm in St. Augustine was not compromised during the storm and the gators were not unleashed on the unsuspecting public. Just FYI.

http://www.facebook.com/StJohnsSheriffOffice/posts/1300185176671888

[Eclipse]

As the storm passes FL and moves North, it's almost as if the news media is
trying to will the water to rise and make more news then they have.



5 deaths being reported, though only two were directly storm related (getting hit by trees),
the others had medical issues and couldn't be reached in time for intervention.

[Luis R. Ramos]

We can also have his assurance that no alligator will end in one of New York City's sewers, right?

:angel:

[stillamarine]

Just talked to my brother who is a corrections officer in north Florida near Jacksonville Spent 36 hours transferring inmates to other areas. Lots of wind and rain. But not too much damage. Areas out of power including his prison. His wife is a CO at the same prison and is stuck there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flying Pig]

Im on the gulf side... you wouldnt even know theres a hurricane.  Calm, breezy, humid like any other night.  Wild.

[winterg]

Im on the gulf side... you wouldnt even know theres a hurricane.  Calm, breezy, humid like any other night.  Wild.

Tampa Bay here.  We didn't even get any rain.  Just breezy and overcast.

[stillamarine]

I've lived through quite a few bad hurricanes. What's good about this one for Florida is that the eye didn't make landfall and it's to the east of the coast. So Florida is on the "calmer" side of the storm. Still dangerous as heck. I just need it to stay away from Miami on the swing back around. I'm flying to Cancun Tuesday!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[seacamper]

OP, you seem to misunderstand the role of the commander. Eclipse and I have had our professional deltas but I think wr can agree on this: if you were in my group and acted like this, you would not be in my group for long. You need to take some time and understand the authority and responsibility of a commander. Once you understand and internalize those definitions, then you can question the authority of those appointed over you to give legal and enforcable orders.

Thrawn, your allegation that I ever questioned anyone appointed over me can not just be left out there. It is a point of professional pride that I hope Sar Dragon will overlook before he bans me from the site. No where in any of my posts did I advocate this. I simply asked a really simple question, and it was (Apparently the norm for CAP Talk) then indicated that I was questioning authority when that was not the case. If you have a grain of honor you will admit that. I was then told that trying to get hold of the directive and understanding it was somehow interfering.  I rebutted that.
Now that I am getting more active in CAP, I am trying to use this site, but what happens is a few loud voices seem to make false declarative statements and it is their way or the highway. Thrawn, you are guilty of this here. You are claiming you would kick me out of your Group for what? I think it is you that did not absorb the role of the commander at ACSC. Is that where VOCO came from? I never saw that in the courseware. I guess I am having a hard time adjusting from active/reserve duty because I keep running into roadblocks that simply should not be there. Just follow the regs. Just follow the actual chain of command, not the perceived chain of command. If you don't know something, look it up. If you can't find it, ask. If you are asked, don't assume the person asking the question is trying to skirt the rules. Don't be condescending. If you do act condescending expect to get it back, and don't hide behind a veil of experience that your sparring partner has as well.
SarDragon, one of the studies done at ACSC and SOS is on how institutions like the USAF or CAP or Walmart form cliques that kill corporations. You are a moderator of a website called CAP Talk. It is an institution. The point is, that a clique has formed here. We SHOULD be able to come here and have a fair exchange of information, not a one sided beat down. New folks should be treated with respect and not automatically thrown by the clique. I believe I escalated my tone proportionally to the accusations, but if I am in error, I have no problems apologizing.  Sorry to slip this one in, but I have too many years of integrity vested in the service and CAP to allow the final word to be an insinuation that I questioned authority. I questioned Eclipses opinion by citing regulation, but no ones authority in my actual chain of command.

[abdsp51]

And you have how many years experience in CAP?  How many as a CAP CC?  You need to chill out and heed the feedback you are being given.

[seacamper]

And you have how many years experience in CAP?  How many as a CAP CC?  You need to chill out and heed the feedback you are being given.

6/1. How about you? Hey, if you can refute my points, go ahead and do so. Noted. I will not be back. You guys win.

[SarDragon]

PM sent. Again, the measuring competition is done.

And so is the thread.

Click.