Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 24, 2017, 09:45:59 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tools of the trade  |  Topic: Consider Tampons for your 24 hour pack.
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print
Author Topic: Consider Tampons for your 24 hour pack.  (Read 3339 times)
LSW
Recruit

Posts: 31

« on: July 20, 2016, 01:42:37 PM »

I know that that is an eyebrow raiser, I had the same reaction.

I worked for a while as a bodyguard for a daughter company of  Daimler-Benz. I was trained by a former British Military Intelligence officer with experience in Northern Ireland fighting the IRA and was part of the military unit protecting Princess Dianna. One thing I still remember was his telling us to carry Tampons with us, because what they are designed to do is very close to what a bullet wound is. So if our protectee is shot, as soon as we get them under cover we can insert it into the wounds and it will stop the bleeding as we rush to the hospital.

What do you think are the odds of walking into the site of an aircraft accident as a ground team member and finding victims with puncture wounds? Ideally you leave whatever is in them in them as it blocks bleeding itself, but that may not be a choice and something blocking bleeding internally will be more effective then just slapping something over the wound and trying to tie it tight.

Just something to consider when you next review your ground team gear.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,455

« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2016, 01:43:59 PM »

What do you think are the odds of walking into the site of an aircraft accident as a ground team member and finding victims with puncture wounds?

Statistically zero.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

stillamarine
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 739
Unit: SER-AL-134

« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2016, 01:45:58 PM »

I dunno about an airplane accident but I carried them in combat and there's a couple in my IPOK on my raid vest
Logged
Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

USMC AD 1996-2001
USMCR    2001-2005  Admiral, Great State of Nebraska Navy  MS, MO, UDF
tim.gardiner@gmail.com
LSW
Recruit

Posts: 31

« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 02:28:44 PM »

Statistically zero.

Seriously?  Could you maybe at least try to explain that answer? No chance you will ever see it because you do not do ground team? No one has ever been punctured? No punctures ever in CAP history of SAR missions? You have never personally seen it? What exactly is that comment supposed to represent?
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,455

« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 02:58:12 PM »

Statistically zero.

Seriously?  Could you maybe at least try to explain that answer? No chance you will ever see it because you do not do ground team? No one has ever been punctured? No punctures ever in CAP history of SAR missions? You have never personally seen it? What exactly is that comment supposed to represent?

Exactly what is says.  "Statistically zero' doesn't mean "can't happen", it means compared to real-world operations
there is no need, or that there is no data, anecdotal or otherwise, to show this is reasonable likelihood.

Given a long enough timeline, anything is possible, literally.  The ground gear is scoped on what team members are
expected to encounter, not what "could happen".  You would need to search long and deep to find any
situations where CAP GTs provided anything more then basic stabilizing first aid pending the arrival or real EMS.

The reality is that most GA air crashes result in either walking away-level injuries, or fatalities.

Pack what you will, the problem being that as people "suggest" more and more "in-case" gear, the
packs and vests start requiring sherpas to carry them. A load-out appropriate for a combat medic, soldier, or
even an urban EMT isn't necessarily appropriate for a CAP GTM.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,457
Unit: of issue

« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2016, 03:10:23 PM »

Statistically zero.

Seriously?  Could you maybe at least try to explain that answer? No chance you will ever see it because you do not do ground team? No one has ever been punctured? No punctures ever in CAP history of SAR missions? You have never personally seen it? What exactly is that comment supposed to represent?

In 35 years, lots of field time, cadet activities, high-adventure stuff, SAR training, actual SAR missions, a couple situations with finds, etc, I don't think I've seen a single puncture wound that would have been properly served with a tampon.

Others with more experience can chime in, but I tend to agree with Bob: statistically speaking, your chances are pretty much zero for encountering a medical situation that would require that particular course of treatment.  A regular field dressing is going to be more universally usable.

I was on a CAP activity in the early 1980s where the chances of encountering bears & bobcats and such was pretty high. (Matter of fact, the 3rd or 4th night of the activity we had a bear in the trash dump in the camp).  There were rifles and shotguns at that activity because the powers that be determined that there was a "greater than zero" chance of running into the local fauna on the various bivouacs & footmarches scheduled for those two weeks.

Today, if I were to plan an activity or event here in the mountains, I know that I *could* encounter bear, coyotes, or bobcats. But its such a low possibility that I'd never even think to say "Hey, can we take a couple Remington 870s with us?"  It is so close to zero that I'd call it "statistically zero."


Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
AirAux
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2016, 03:11:44 PM »

Here ya go:  The new U.S. military technology is easy for first responders to administer and increases the survival rate for severe internal injuries nine-fold.




DARPA Wound Stasis Foam


The organization that pioneered global positioning systems, voice recognition software, and ARPANET—the Internet’s earliest ancestor—is now putting research and development dollars to work creating innovative technologies to keep soldiers (and civilians) safe.

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has collaborated with Arsenal Medical, Inc. to develop a revolutionary foam agent that can halt bleeding from severe internal abdominal wounds for up to three hours, with a survival rate of 72 percent. The Department of Defense (DoD) began the Wound Stasis foam project in 2010 in an effort to improve survival rates during the “Golden Hour:" the 60 minutes following an injury in which a wounded soldier is stabilized and moved to a treatment facility.

“Battlefield care is provided in austere, often hostile conditions, so the Department of Defense aims to transport injured troops off the battlefield and to appropriate healthcare facilities as quickly as possible," says Brian Holloway, DARPA Program Manager for the Wound Stasis System program, in an email to Healthline. "During the war in Iraq, DoD set a standard of one hour for this to happen; thus, the term ‘the Golden Hour.'

"Because approximately 50 percent of potentially preventable deaths from battlefield injuries are due to abdominal hemorrhage and delays in hemorrhage control during transportation to medical facilities, the need for rapid, far-forward hemorrhage treatments is great,” Holloway says.

According to the U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research, this type of internal bleeding is the leading cause of potentially survivable deaths on the battlefield. This is, at least in part, due to the fact that internal wounds can’t be compressed with tourniquets or dressings. The Wound Stasis foam, which is designed to be administered by a combat medic, expands to fill a soldier’s intact abdominal cavity and can be easily removed by a trauma surgeon once the soldier reaches a hospital.

“Currently, there is no FDA-approved battlefield treatment that a medic can apply for these types of injuries; evacuation to a surgical setting is the only option. We created the Wound Stasis program to help increase treatment options and save lives,” says Holloway.

The foam itself is a polyurethane polymer administered directly into the abdomen via two injections. When the injected materials meet, they expand to more than 30 times their original volume, forming a solid mass of foam that contours to the patient’s internal organs without adhering to tissues or absorbing blood. The entire foam block can be removed by hand in less than one minute following an incision by a surgeon.


“We knew that the optimal product would need to be easily carried by medics on the battlefield. We knew that we would need a small amount of material that could fill the large abdominal cavity, but that could also be removable. Given these needs, it was intuitive to us that a foam material would be the optimal solution,” says Upma Sharma, Director of Material Science and Engineering at Arsenal Medical and Program Director for the Wound Stasis foam project in an email to Healthline.

“We took an extremely thoughtful approach when we began engineering the foam, knowing that it would have to be optimized over a number of independent variables," she added. "In total, we developed 1,200 foams so that we can control each critical parameter, including expansion and hydrophobicity.”

The Wound Stasis foam has performed so well on pig models of human injuries (increasing survival rates from eight percent to more than 70 percent) that DARPA has awarded Arsenal Medical a $15.5 million contract to perform Phase II testing. To date, DARPA has given Arsenal $22.5 million to develop the foam product.

“Work on the program will continue in pursuit of the technical requirements for FDA approval and program transition to end-user organizations,” says Holloway. “Our goal is to move as fast as possible in bringing this device to fruition.”

Researchers presented pre-clinical data on the foam treatment at the 2012 Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Surgery of Trauma in Kauai, Hawaii in September. Holloway is hopeful that the Wound Stasis foam, once approved by the FDA for use in human patients, will save the lives of many soldiers wounded in bomb blasts, as well as civilians who’ve suffered trauma in car accidents and elsewhere.

“Although DARPA's focus is on defense applications—particularly, in this case, improving survival rates for battlefield injuries—any such product, once commercialized, could impact civilian scenarios in which internal abdominal bleeding is likely to factor,” says Holloway. “It's highly plausible that such a product could become part of the toolkit for civilian first responders.”
Logged
LSW
Recruit

Posts: 31

« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2016, 03:19:45 PM »

Thank you for the clarification Eclipse.
Logged
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 640

« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2016, 03:29:32 PM »

I suspect that anyone with that kind of wound would be deceased by the time we find them. Even puncture wounds with the puncturing item still in place will bleed some. Multiply that x hours until found, environmental conditions, and comorbid factors and you basically have yourself a corpse.
Logged
Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,666
Unit: Earth

« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2016, 03:42:58 PM »

Or if you do not want to carry tampons, carry the QuikClot Combat Gauze, which you can now buy at sporting good and outdoor stores such as Academy and Cabellas.  This is different than the QuikClot powder, which has not been in production since 2009.  But yes, I agree, chances are you will never use any of this on any REDCAP. 
Logged
Al Sayre
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,501
Unit: SER-MS-001

Mississippi Wing
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2016, 03:57:15 PM »

Here ya go:  The new U.S. military technology is easy for first responders to administer and increases the survival rate for severe internal injuries nine-fold.




DARPA Wound Stasis Foam


The organization that pioneered global positioning systems, voice recognition software, and ARPANET—the Internet’s earliest ancestor—is now putting research and development dollars to work creating innovative technologies to keep soldiers (and civilians) safe.

The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has collaborated with Arsenal Medical, Inc. to develop a revolutionary foam agent that can halt bleeding from severe internal abdominal wounds for up to three hours, with a survival rate of 72 percent. The Department of Defense (DoD) began the Wound Stasis foam project in 2010 in an effort to improve survival rates during the “Golden Hour:" the 60 minutes following an injury in which a wounded soldier is stabilized and moved to a treatment facility.

“Battlefield care is provided in austere, often hostile conditions, so the Department of Defense aims to transport injured troops off the battlefield and to appropriate healthcare facilities as quickly as possible," says Brian Holloway, DARPA Program Manager for the Wound Stasis System program, in an email to Healthline. "During the war in Iraq, DoD set a standard of one hour for this to happen; thus, the term ‘the Golden Hour.'

"Because approximately 50 percent of potentially preventable deaths from battlefield injuries are due to abdominal hemorrhage and delays in hemorrhage control during transportation to medical facilities, the need for rapid, far-forward hemorrhage treatments is great,” Holloway says.

According to the U.S. Army Institute of Surgical Research, this type of internal bleeding is the leading cause of potentially survivable deaths on the battlefield. This is, at least in part, due to the fact that internal wounds can’t be compressed with tourniquets or dressings. The Wound Stasis foam, which is designed to be administered by a combat medic, expands to fill a soldier’s intact abdominal cavity and can be easily removed by a trauma surgeon once the soldier reaches a hospital.

“Currently, there is no FDA-approved battlefield treatment that a medic can apply for these types of injuries; evacuation to a surgical setting is the only option. We created the Wound Stasis program to help increase treatment options and save lives,” says Holloway.

The foam itself is a polyurethane polymer administered directly into the abdomen via two injections. When the injected materials meet, they expand to more than 30 times their original volume, forming a solid mass of foam that contours to the patient’s internal organs without adhering to tissues or absorbing blood. The entire foam block can be removed by hand in less than one minute following an incision by a surgeon.


“We knew that the optimal product would need to be easily carried by medics on the battlefield. We knew that we would need a small amount of material that could fill the large abdominal cavity, but that could also be removable. Given these needs, it was intuitive to us that a foam material would be the optimal solution,” says Upma Sharma, Director of Material Science and Engineering at Arsenal Medical and Program Director for the Wound Stasis foam project in an email to Healthline.

“We took an extremely thoughtful approach when we began engineering the foam, knowing that it would have to be optimized over a number of independent variables," she added. "In total, we developed 1,200 foams so that we can control each critical parameter, including expansion and hydrophobicity.”

The Wound Stasis foam has performed so well on pig models of human injuries (increasing survival rates from eight percent to more than 70 percent) that DARPA has awarded Arsenal Medical a $15.5 million contract to perform Phase II testing. To date, DARPA has given Arsenal $22.5 million to develop the foam product.

“Work on the program will continue in pursuit of the technical requirements for FDA approval and program transition to end-user organizations,” says Holloway. “Our goal is to move as fast as possible in bringing this device to fruition.”

Researchers presented pre-clinical data on the foam treatment at the 2012 Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Surgery of Trauma in Kauai, Hawaii in September. Holloway is hopeful that the Wound Stasis foam, once approved by the FDA for use in human patients, will save the lives of many soldiers wounded in bomb blasts, as well as civilians who’ve suffered trauma in car accidents and elsewhere.

“Although DARPA's focus is on defense applications—particularly, in this case, improving survival rates for battlefield injuries—any such product, once commercialized, could impact civilian scenarios in which internal abdominal bleeding is likely to factor,” says Holloway. “It's highly plausible that such a product could become part of the toolkit for civilian first responders.”

Sounds amazingly like "Great Stuff" foam http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-16-oz-Big-Gap-Filler-Insulating-Foam-Sealant-248314/100029171
Logged
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,457
Unit: of issue

« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2016, 04:02:21 PM »

Sounds amazingly like "Great Stuff" foam http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-16-oz-Big-Gap-Filler-Insulating-Foam-Sealant-248314/100029171

There's a Jeff Foxworthy joke in there.. I know it!
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 9,838
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2016, 04:12:45 PM »

Sounds amazingly like "Great Stuff" foam http://www.homedepot.com/p/GREAT-STUFF-16-oz-Big-Gap-Filler-Insulating-Foam-Sealant-248314/100029171

I know you are just joking, but, given the readership, I feel compelled to reinforce, "Don't do this at home!"

I used some of this stuff last weekend, and I'm still cleaning it off my fingers. The easy removal aspect of the DARPA product would not be present here.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 966
Unit: SI

« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2016, 05:54:08 PM »

As someone who only has CPR/AED/First Aid training, why would I decide that doing this is a good idea?

Especially when it means using something not found on the first aid kit list?

Especially when, should I be charged with negligence, my defense will involve stating that I "saw it on the internet" when asked where I was told this was an approved method of dealing with a puncture wound?
Logged
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 371

« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2016, 06:17:05 PM »

What do you think are the odds of walking into the site of an aircraft accident as a ground team member and finding victims with puncture wounds?

Statistically zero.

But a very real possibility.  The "statistically zero" card doesn't play well with safety and preparedness.  Odds of catching Ebola are "statistically zero" in the US, but we'd be D----d fools to blow off the risk.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,455

« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2016, 06:48:33 PM »

What do you think are the odds of walking into the site of an aircraft accident as a ground team member and finding victims with puncture wounds?

Statistically zero.

But a very real possibility.  The "statistically zero" card doesn't play well with safety and preparedness.

Disagree, that's what it's literally about.  It's physically impossible to be "prepared" for everything, the gear would
weigh 1000lbs and be referred to as an "ambulance".

You have to make good decisions about what you may or may not encounter in the real world, and adjust for conditions.
Ebola is a non-issue in the US, so is Zika, even West Nile in most areas, but it makes for click bait, so sound the alarm.
If you travel somewhere it's an issue, then adapt your precautions.

A CAP GT is much more likely to get food poisoning from an old MRE then encounter someone with puncture wounds who
hasn't already bled out.  CAP isn't there in the golden hour, let alone the same day as most crashes - that's why the push back
on the first responder threads, it's not in CAP's mission or mandate.

(And yes, the odds of cadets restoring the firing pins to parade rifles is also "statistically zero", so there you go!)
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SMWOG
Member

Posts: 83
Unit: NER NY

« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2016, 07:25:01 PM »

I say go ahead and put one in your IFAK(great for nose bleeds). I see alot of untrained and unqualified people in CAP carrying around med equipment  they should not have. People in CAP need to stop playing EMS. 
Logged
Panzerbjorn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 261
Unit: MER-NC-048

« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2016, 07:27:03 PM »

Statistically zero.

Seriously?  Could you maybe at least try to explain that answer? No chance you will ever see it because you do not do ground team? No one has ever been punctured? No punctures ever in CAP history of SAR missions? You have never personally seen it? What exactly is that comment supposed to represent?

My own experience with victims at an aircraft crash site is that the victims are killed from blunt force trauma or have to be literally separated from the aircraft components.  By that time, a tampon is going to be of little use.  Your tampon suggestion is definitely valid for cases like you mentioned....subject is shot and you are right there to deal with the wound immediately.  In our environment, you're much more likely to give it to a fellow ground team member who needs one because they ran out than you are to insert one into a puncture wound that miraculously stabilizes the victim long enough to transport the, to the hospital after lying in the woods for several hours bleeding from said wound.

Now a maxipad, on the other hand....that I could get on board with as a suggestion.  You're packing something designed to absorb blood and is much more versatile as a first aid tool than a tampon.  I know more EMTs carry maxipads in their kits than I do ones who carry tampons with them if they don't need them for personal use.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,455

« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2016, 08:10:18 PM »

I say go ahead and put one in your IFAK(great for nose bleeds). I see alot of untrained and unqualified people in CAP carrying around med equipment  they should not have. People in CAP need to stop playing EMS.

Absolutely - on more then one occasion I've had to have members leaver CV collars, backboards, oxygen and
full-on trauma kits in their car on an ELT mission.

There are plenty of other places those skills can be used, not in CAP.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 627

« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 08:12:34 PM »

Where can one find a library of SAR real life stories? Are they accumulated anywhere like NTSB plane crash reports are, such that folks can research them? Reading this thread made me wonder when the last CAP SAR was where Cadets and/or Senior members found any survivors that needed immediate assistance before EMTs could arrive?  I read the NTSB reports often as they are a great learning tool for pilots. Would be great to read similar CAP accounts of actual missions with details and critiques.

.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Tools of the trade  |  Topic: Consider Tampons for your 24 hour pack.
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.404 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me