Facts, Myths and Legends

[almostspaatz]

I am working on a presentation discussing common myths that float around the CAP community and already have a good list.

Does anyone have any good little known facts or myths usually believed? Please cite sources...

[DakRadz]

Uniforms are NEVER a point of contention.

[LSThiker]

I am working on a presentation discussing common myths that float around the CAP community and already have a good list.

Does anyone have any good little known facts or myths usually believed? Please cite sources...

What is already on your list?

[Eclipse]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

[JeffDG]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

And changes depending on what the member is doing.

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAP sunk submarines in WW2

[RogueLeader]

CAP sunk submarines in WW2

Prove we didn't.  There's speculation that we didn't.

[Alaric]

CAP sunk submarines in WW2

Prove we didn't.  There's speculation that we didn't.

You can't prove a negative.

[Spam]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

Absolutely, do this one. Not all of us are TF, all the time. Great suggestion.

V/R
Spam

[winterg]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

Absolutely, do this one. Not all of us are TF, all the time. Great suggestion.

V/R
Spam

Maybe I should have held off on the tattoo. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Майор Хаткевич]

CAP sunk submarines in WW2

Prove we didn't.  There's speculation that we didn't.

What Alaric said.


Why don't you provide records to the contrary?

[Spam]

CAP sunk submarines in WW2

Prove we didn't.  There's speculation that we didn't.

On the contrary, the speculation is that we DID have kills. The evidence is that we did not.

Self reporting two kills without evidence has led to what has amounted to the persistent organizational self-delusion that we "believe" we did have two kills, and several other probables, as noted in CAP wartime reports, which were quoted with little independent verification in Army historical documents, and formed the basis of NHQ/historian LTC Pogorzelskis monograph, at http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/CAP_UBOATSDOWN_ECFBEC512D7DB.pdf


Subsequent to Navy analysis (remember, the Navy was the ASW lead service) and with extensive post war analytical support, the results have gradually appeared to completely discount the wishful CAP claims. The Navy did not confirm the claims, and the kills are not proven.


From 5MAR42 to AUG43 (CAP Coastal Patrol mission).
CAP planes were first armed after the MAY42 Rinker/Manning mission.
The first kill claimed was the 11JUL42 Haggins/Farr mission, based on "debris".
CAP internally accepted the claim, sent it up the chain, and the Army and Navy (at the time) recorded it.

Here's the later analysis of a preponderance of evidence showing that we didn't:
Check the data: http://uboat.net/fates/losses/1942.htm
Also see: http://uboat.net/forums/read.php?3,86029,86029#msg-86029
Dr. Axel Niestle's work and full reference data is available at: https://www.amazon.com/German-U-Boat-Losses-During-World/dp/1557506418?ie=UTF8&qid=1282695498&ref_=sr_1_2&s=books&sr=1-2


V/R
Spam

[JeffDG]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

Absolutely, do this one. Not all of us are TF, all the time. Great suggestion.

V/R
Spam

Nobody is Total Force all the time.  You attending your unit meeting is not Total Force.

Unless you're signed into an AFAM 24/7, you're not Total Force all the time.

[Spam]

New suggestion:

D&C myths and legends are always fun, and are useful to cover when coupled with the admonition to go back to the USAF Instruction for the real truth data on how to drill. Examples that keep popping up of myths and bad habits coming from sacred tradition but not any approved manual or reg:

- The fall out "twirl" on dismissal.
- The hallway passing brace to attention and "BY YOUR LEAVE SIR/MA'AM".
- The Third Person Form of Address "THISCADETDOESNOTKNOWBUTWILLFINDOUTSIR".
- The no hands in pockets in uniform sin.
and so forth.

V/R
Spam

[raivo]

- The Third Person Form of Address "THISCADETDOESNOTKNOWBUTWILLFINDOUTSIR".

Believed to have originated with the Faceless Cadet Squadron of Braavos.

[Ed DeSocio]

I like the Lee Harvey Oswald story. He was a cadet. It's unfortunate that we have anything in common with him, but the story is worth telling.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16983.0

[MSG Mac]

I like the Lee Harvey Oswald story. He was a cadet. It's unfortunate that we have anything in common with him, but the story is worth telling.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16983.0

Don't forget to add that former National Chairman of the Board BG Byrd was the owner of the Texas School Book Depository.

[RNOfficer]

A well-established fable is that CAP cadets were considered for the teenage resistance group in the original "Red Dawn".

[Майор Хаткевич]

A well-established fable is that CAP cadets were considered for the teenage resistance group in the original "Red Dawn".

Recruiting boom averted?

[Waterflame6]

Wait, that's a thing???

why did they not go through with it tho

[Damron]

I like the Lee Harvey Oswald story. He was a cadet. It's unfortunate that we have anything in common with him, but the story is worth telling.
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=16983.0

NRA badge?

[RNOfficer]

Wait, that's a thing???

why did they not go through with it tho

I resume that you are referring to my earlier post "A well-established fable is that CAP cadets were considered for the teenage resistance group in the original "Red Dawn"."

It makes no sense that a CAP cadet unit would have been considered. Maybe you've heard the claim that "CAP is America's best kept secret". I don't know if it's the "best" but the existence of the CAP is not well known among the general American public. For a film to use CAP cadets, there would have to be a whole pointless backstory explaining what they are. No filmmaker would bother with that.

So, very reasonably, a football team was the nucleus of the "Wolverines", which was their school mascot.

[abdsp51]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

Absolutely, do this one. Not all of us are TF, all the time. Great suggestion.

V/R
Spam

Nobody is Total Force all the time.  You attending your unit meeting is not Total Force.

Unless you're signed into an AFAM 24/7, you're not Total Force all the time.

I am...

[TheTravelingAirman]

You might include which members are actually considered "Total Force", however the reality
will make people sad, since the real number is a small percentage of total membership.

Absolutely, do this one. Not all of us are TF, all the time. Great suggestion.

V/R
Spam

Nobody is Total Force all the time.  You attending your unit meeting is not Total Force.

Unless you're signed into an AFAM 24/7, you're not Total Force all the time.

I am...

Maybe we say nobody is Total Force at all times in their role as a CAP member?

[Spam]

We had a sister units qualified GTMs stop in our meeting this past WED, as they were unable to get a qualified GTL to take them out on a storm related ND AFAM sortie. When our team later arrived from the sortie they were greeted with "hey, here comes the Total Force(TM)"!

Laughter ensued...
Spam

[etodd]

..... the existence of the CAP is not well known among the general American public.

Most folks that see Cadets in uniform at an event assume its a high school ROTC unit. I hear that often.

[GaryVC]

Third person form of address was actually worse then the example (which wasn't third person).

It was "what does the colonel wish me to do?"

I don't know how far this goes back, but it was apparently used in the Army before WWII. WAWAC in the late 1960s we had a retired Army colonel at group 18 HQ in California that told us we should talk like that. The leadership book that we had it that time said specifically not to use that form of address.

[Mitchell 1969]

Third person form of address was actually worse then the example (which wasn't third person).

It was "what does the colonel wish me to do?"

I don't know how far this goes back, but it was apparently used in the Army before WWII. WAWAC in the late 1960s we had a retired Army colonel at group 18 HQ in California that told us we should talk like that. The leadership book that we had it that time said specifically not to use that form of address.

That was Joseph Parilla, Lt Col, CAP and Col, U. S. Army (Ret).

He was a character. Hr was truly "Old Army," as in pre-WWII. Besides the third person thing, he also taught army style D&C, and had an incredible disdain for Jodie's - "I was there when Private Willie Duckworth invented that. I wasn't impressed then, I'm not impressed now." I got to like the guy. I wish I knew more about him. I know that he received the Silver Beaver Award from BSA and the local Little League in his town named an award after him.

[indiaXray]

..... the existence of the CAP is not well known among the general American public.

Most folks that see Cadets in uniform at an event assume its a high school ROTC unit. I hear that often.

Me too.  To quote my mother-in-law when she learnt of my joining CAP: "They're still around?!!"

[NIN]

Me too.  To quote my mother-in-law when she learnt of my joining CAP: "They're still around?!!"

To quote my neighbors when they saw me in uniform last year: "thats still a thing?"

[AirAux]

That CAP members troll military bases attempting to get salutes??? 

[AirAux]

That CAP was the beginning of the Air Force?

[NIN]

That CAP members troll military bases attempting to get salutes???

Oh, no, sneaky RadioMan. I see you.

[NIN]

I always liked the Myth (or maybe its legend?) of the carload of cadets that slammed into a bridge abutment, killing all aboard, as the reason for cadet not being able to drive themselves to activities.

We were told this back in the 1980s.  I had just gotten my driver's license and there was either a "Cadets can't drive themselves to CAP activities" or "Cadets can't drive other cadets to CAP activities" thing that went around in a really nebulous "sort of third hand from a 4th person" kind of way.

"I heard from my buddy..." is the way it started off.

And then, like any good madlib thing:

"that.."
[Pick One or more: "the wing commander" | "the Group Commander" | "the Group Commander of a group over there" <insert handwave in a cardinal direction> | "National Headquarters"]

"won't allow..."
[Pick one: "cadets to drive to activities" | "cadets to drive other cadets to activities"]

"that are.."
[Pick one: "over an hour away" | "outside of the group" | "at an Air Force base" | <some other fantastical but illogical place>]

"because..."
[Pick one or more: "a carload of cadets slammed into a bridge abutment and it killed all of them.. in 1963." | "CAP's insurance doesn't cover cadets." | "a cadet drove off the road and died last year." | "a cadet got hit by a tractor trailer and died screaming." | <some other horrific end>].

"It was awful."

there was always nebulous handwaving and assurances that they somehow knew a guy who knew the deceased.

[Eclipse]

That CAP members troll military bases attempting to get salutes???

Oh, no, sneaky RadioMan. I see you.

Heh - nice.

Actually, that is a 100% myth, so fair game.

[TheSkyHornet]

New suggestion:

D&C myths and legends are always fun, and are useful to cover when coupled with the admonition to go back to the USAF Instruction for the real truth data on how to drill. Examples that keep popping up of myths and bad habits coming from sacred tradition but not any approved manual or reg:

- The fall out "twirl" on dismissal.
- The hallway passing brace to attention and "BY YOUR LEAVE SIR/MA'AM".
- The Third Person Form of Address "THISCADETDOESNOTKNOWBUTWILLFINDOUTSIR".
- The no hands in pockets in uniform sin.
and so forth.

V/R
Spam

Those are more SOP things, not so much regulatory. I guess the myth would be that people think it's regulatory.

[GaryVC]

Third person form of address was actually worse then the example (which wasn't third person).

That was Joseph Parilla, Lt Col, CAP and Col, U. S. Army (Ret).

He was a character. Hr was truly "Old Army," as in pre-WWII. Besides the third person thing, he also taught army style D&C, and had an incredible disdain for Jodie's - "I was there when Private Willie Duckworth invented that. I wasn't impressed then, I'm not impressed now." I got to like the guy. I wish I knew more about him. I know that he received the Silver Beaver Award from BSA and the local Little League in his town named an award after him.

He was a major in CAP when I met him. I looked him up in some Army manuals we at at UC Riverside and I can tell you he retired from the Army in 1948 with a AUS (Army of the United States) commission. I think he was a captain for many years between the world wars and once said he had been a judge at what may have been named the "Drill Competition of the United States" sometime before WWII. I was curious what he had done during WWI but never asked him. One thing I did learn from him was how to do a face in marching which wasn't explained very well in the drill and ceremonies book we had then.

[fixed quotes]

[Live2Learn]

"CAP aircraft don't have engine problems because they are the best maintained fleet in the world..."

[Storm Chaser]

That CAP members troll military bases attempting to get salutes???

We don't? :p

[Storm Chaser]

Fact or myth?

CAP is always the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

[SarDragon]

Fact or myth?

CAP is always the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary.

Both - depends on the context.

[NIN]

Last week we were in blues.

Someone barked at someone else about how fast they were moving and said "Double time it!"

The cadet turned around and said "But .. sir, we're not supposed to run in blues."

I whipped out my electronic AFI 36-2203 right to figure 3.10.



"What uniform is this guy wearing?"

"Uh, blues, sir."

"There you go."

[Luis R. Ramos]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

[NIN]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

[MSG Mac]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

Sweat

[Майор Хаткевич]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

Sweat

Puddles, mud, falling.  Heard them all over the years.

[Spam]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

Sweat

Sweat not authorized in blues; if it were, there'd be a subparagraph covering it.

Look at NIN's graphic: not a bead of sweat on him. Why, that guy is cool as a cucumber and twice as slick. He doesn't even need shoe laces.

V/R
Spam

Modified: if you are a running USAF officer, it helps to be bionic to not sweat:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGO57y4td-c

[NIN]

Sweat

Officers don't sweat. The perspire silently.

[ShannonV]

Third person form of address was actually worse then the example (which wasn't third person)

That was Joseph Parilla, Lt Col, CAP and Col, U. S. Army (Ret).

He was a character. Hr was truly "Old Army," as in pre-WWII. Besides the third person thing, he also taught army style D&C, and had an incredible disdain for Jodie's - "I was there when Private Willie Duckworth invented that. I wasn't impressed then, I'm not impressed now." I got to like the guy. I wish I knew more about him. I know that he received the Silver Beaver Award from BSA and the local Little League in his town named an award after him.

He was a major in CAP when I met him. I looked him up in some Army manuals we at at UC Riverside and I can tell you he retired from the Army in 1948 with a AUS (Army of the United States) commission. I think he was a captain for many years between the world wars and once said he had been a judge at what may have been named the "Drill Competition of the United States" sometime before WWII. I was curious what he had done during WWI but never asked him. One thing I did learn from him was how to do a face in marching which wasn't explained very well in the drill and ceremonies book we had then.

I'm sorry to post with no connection to the CAP, but Col. Joseph Parilla was my great-grandfather.  I just love that I Googled his name (as I do from time to time) and that people still remember and talk about him. 

[fixed quotes]

[MSG Mac]

Wait, that's a thing???

why did they not go through with it tho

I resume that you are referring to my earlier post "A well-established fable is that CAP cadets were considered for the teenage resistance group in the original "Red Dawn"."

It makes no sense that a CAP cadet unit would have been considered. Maybe you've heard the claim that "CAP is America's best kept secret". I don't know if it's the "best" but the existence of the CAP is not well known among the general American public. For a film to use CAP cadets, there would have to be a whole pointless backstory explaining what they are. No filmmaker would bother with that.

So, very reasonably, a football team was the nucleus of the "Wolverines", which was their school mascot.

CAP was also considered for Iron Eagle

[Mitchell 1969]

Third person form of address was actually worse then the example (which wasn't third person)

That was Joseph Parilla, Lt Col, CAP and Col, U. S. Army (Ret).

He was a character. Hr was truly "Old Army," as in pre-WWII. Besides the third person thing, he also taught army style D&C, and had an incredible disdain for Jodie's - "I was there when Private Willie Duckworth invented that. I wasn't impressed then, I'm not impressed now." I got to like the guy. I wish I knew more about him. I know that he received the Silver Beaver Award from BSA and the local Little League in his town named an award after him.

He was a major in CAP when I met him. I looked him up in some Army manuals we at at UC Riverside and I can tell you he retired from the Army in 1948 with a AUS (Army of the United States) commission. I think he was a captain for many years between the world wars and once said he had been a judge at what may have been named the "Drill Competition of the United States" sometime before WWII. I was curious what he had done during WWI but never asked him. One thing I did learn from him was how to do a face in marching which wasn't explained very well in the drill and ceremonies book we had then.

I'm sorry to post with no connection to the CAP, but Col. Joseph Parilla was my great-grandfather.  I just love that I Googled his name (as I do from time to time) and that people still remember and talk about him. 

[fixed quotes]

Great to hear from a family member of Colonel Joe! He was my living link with history.

[ShannonV]

He was drafted in WWI. He retired as a full Bird Colnel.  He had a 5th grade  education (when it came time to produce high school records for promotion  he mentioned an old hs in Youngstown Ohio that had burned down and that was that) and he went through the ranks.  I have a diary from his time in WWI.   He was in England  I believe  most of the time.  He injured his leg on the ship  on the way over, or just before he left,  and was held back for treatment.   He never did get to meet up with his unit (?).  Not much talk in the diary about the war, mostly about a motorcycle he obtained and the dances he  attended  with this girl or that.
In 1925 he wad commissioned a Captain with Compnay H 145th  and in 1939 designed truck & trailer equipment at Camp Perry. He was assigned to Camp Shelby in 1940 and helped build it into a major infantry  installation  during WWII.  In 41 he was transferred to the 73rd Infantry Brigade of the ONG and placed in command of it's headquarters. Later that year he retiref from active duty under a new age resolution at the War Dept.  & was placed on the reserves list. The following April he was recalled to the transportation division and ordered to report to thw War dept. In Washington  & was promoted to lt. Col. 

[bh125]

Myth: you have to join the Air Force if you join cap/ cap is the Air Force
Many a time I'm at a recruiting booth or some sort and people come up to us and give the "thank you for your service" or "oh cool Air Force kids". One time I was talking to someone, and after telling her we were cap, she said "oh so rotc?" [emoji23] also I have talked to some new cadets who don't want to join because they "don't want to join the Air Force"

[almostspaatz]

Myth: you have to join the Air Force if you join cap/ cap is the Air Force
Many a time I'm at a recruiting booth or some sort and people come up to us and give the "thank you for your service" or "oh cool Air Force kids". One time I was talking to someone, and after telling her we were cap, she said "oh so rotc?" [emoji23] also I have talked to some new cadets who don't want to join because they "don't want to join the Air Force"

That is more of an issue with recruiting/brand awareness instead of a myth that is believed within CAP. That is certainly something that needs to be made clear when pitching CAP to a potential recruit. I am quite honestly impressed that people even recognize that you are wearing an AF uniform, most people seem to assume a uniform=Army. But whenever someone assumes you are part of the USAF, you have already broken the ice and have a chance to talk to them about what we really do.

[Hyperion]

New suggestion:

D&C myths and legends are always fun, and are useful to cover when coupled with the admonition to go back to the USAF Instruction for the real truth data on how to drill. Examples that keep popping up of myths and bad habits coming from sacred tradition but not any approved manual or reg:

- The fall out "twirl" on dismissal.
- The hallway passing brace to attention and "BY YOUR LEAVE SIR/MA'AM".
- The Third Person Form of Address "THISCADETDOESNOTKNOWBUTWILLFINDOUTSIR".
- The no hands in pockets in uniform sin.
and so forth.

V/R
Spam

2.12.3.1. Do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item.

[ColonelJack]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

Sweat

"If Uncle Sam wanted you to sweat, he's issue it to you!"

Jack

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Myth: you have to join the Air Force if you join cap/ cap is the Air Force
Many a time I'm at a recruiting booth or some sort and people come up to us and give the "thank you for your service" or "oh cool Air Force kids". One time I was talking to someone, and after telling her we were cap, she said "oh so rotc?" [emoji23] also I have talked to some new cadets who don't want to join because they "don't want to join the Air Force"

beats the old (real old) days when the Ike Jacket was in and folks would mistake the USAF/CAP Uniform for that of a bus driver.

[MSG Mac]

I guess this myth originated from the Blues being the "best" uniform a cadet may have, so it does not get soiled...

How does it get soiled by moving at the double?

Sweat

"If Uncle Sam wanted you to sweat, he's issue it to you!"

Jack

Classis Sign of Heat Stroke

[Mitchell 1969]

He was drafted in WWI. He retired as a full Bird Colnel.  He had a 5th grade  education (when it came time to produce high school records for promotion  he mentioned an old hs in Youngstown Ohio that had burned down and that was that) and he went through the ranks.  I have a diary from his time in WWI.   He was in England  I believe  most of the time.  He injured his leg on the ship  on the way over, or just before he left,  and was held back for treatment.   He never did get to meet up with his unit (?).  Not much talk in the diary about the war, mostly about a motorcycle he obtained and the dances he  attended  with this girl or that.
In 1925 he wad commissioned a Captain with Compnay H 145th  and in 1939 designed truck & trailer equipment at Camp Perry. He was assigned to Camp Shelby in 1940 and helped build it into a major infantry  installation  during WWII.  In 41 he was transferred to the 73rd Infantry Brigade of the ONG and placed in command of it's headquarters. Later that year he retiref from active duty under a new age resolution at the War Dept.  & was placed on the reserves list. The following April he was recalled to the transportation division and ordered to report to thw War dept. In Washington  & was promoted to lt. Col.

Fascinating! Thanks for that.