Initial Promotion For Prior Military Officers and NCOs

[Eclipse]

At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that.  Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.

What difference does that make?  Being on a roster at group or wing is not an automatic indication you
have a clue.  Also, what about the slick-sleeves who take a wing level director job week 2?

At least with demotions, you always know who has what scope.

And the external perception is still the same - FGOs reporting (potentially) to CGOs or even NCOs.
The "real" world doesn't work that way.  In most cases, LEO, FD, military, if you ascend you get promoted, and
if you descend there's a ghost outline of the stripes or grade you lost on your uniform.

[Spaceman3750]

The "real" world doesn't work that way.  In most cases, LEO, FD, military, if you ascend you get promoted, and
if you descend there's a ghost outline of the stripes or grade you lost on your uniform.

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

Exception: National Guard. I work with someone who was an E-8 when he was a full timer for the Guard out of state, and when he came back he slipped into an E-7 billet.

Edit 2: Eclipse, I suppose this means you'll be turning in your oak leaves?

[Eclipse]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Edit 2: Eclipse, I suppose this means you'll be turning in your oak leaves?

The day things change, so will I.

In a CAP world that is properly manned and staffed, it won't need Lt Cols to go back to the units.

[Майор Хаткевич]

But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.

So?

At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that.  Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.

That's fine, but seems a lot of people have issues with the back-cycling Colonels. I don't mind taking on increasing responsibility to hit Major and above. I've come to accept that it's the reality in my wing. As long as it's applied evenly, I will cooperate and do my part. But the issue people have is with giving out Field Grade to former Military, or Captain to CFIs with little experience in CAP, on top of back-cycling Field grade officers to serve under Lts at the unit. Perhaps we need to make sure that Grade bumps happen faster for CCs? 1st Lt gets into the role and gets Probationary Captain until they serve X amount of time to make it permanent? Then give them the normal PD route to continue progressing?

[Eclipse]

"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.

Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?

How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?

[Storm Chaser]

That's the way it should be, especially in an organization where rank/grade means something.

I still think that the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary has it right when it comes to grade insignias, which indicate current or former office/duty assignment. I would very much like to see that in CAP, but I know it will never happen. Many (most?) members are too attached to their grades to give them up.

[MHC5096]

That's the way it should be, especially in an organization where rank/grade means something.

I still think that the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary has it right when it comes to grade insignias, which indicate current or former office/duty assignment. I would very much like to see that in CAP, but I know it will never happen. Many (most?) members are too attached to their grades to give them up.

I'm not sure why you think the Coast Guard Auxiliary is any different in that regard. When I attend my local flotilla meeting I'm still sitting in a room full of eagles and oak leaves while the meeting is being run by officers wearing bars.

[Storm Chaser]

They have slightly different insignias (could be the color of the letter; can't remember) for those holding office and those who formerly held offices. In addition, anyone with a grade insignia held an office commensurable with that grade insignia. Finally, they all remove their grade insignias when working with U.S. Coast Guard personnel. That's definitely different than they way we do things in CAP.

[isuhawkeye]

There are two advancements paths that you can bounce between in the CG AUX.  One is elected leadership and the other is appointed staff.  A different colored letter designation in the center of the insignia tells you the difference between a bird wearer who was elected to that level vs someone who was appointed to a staff job at that level.  All auxiliarists regardless of position take off their bars, bottle caps, birds and stars.  Instead they wear the generic aux device when they augment the active duty.

[Майор Хаткевич]

"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.

Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?

How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?

What if no Captain is available? It's really no different than the probationary time at LtCol. Presumably members who get the nod for that grade have proven themselves, so why have it probationary for a year?

[MHC5096]

The letter colors designate an elected (silver or blue) vs an appointed (red) officer. The office insignia is only required to be removed when augmenting the crew of a Coast Guard cutter. There is no requirement to remove it when otherwise working with Active or Reserve personnel. Past officers wear a special device on thier right pocket to indicate that they are not currently serving in the office indicated by the insignia being worn. Of course when you get to utility uniforms all bets are off since all insignia have a black letter and the past officer device is not worn on that uniform. The thing is that nobody seems to dwell on any of this. People just get things done.

Just like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade  essentially indicates PD completion. 

[Mitchell 1969]

In the real world, if you're a paid member of one of those three organizations, you usually don't get demoted. You just get fired.

It's not uncommon in the LEA world to go back on the street and lose some stripes or the white shirt.

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

[Eclipse]

"Grade bumps for Commanders" are part of the problem.

Jimmy's not a Captain today for "x" reason, too new, lack of PD, TIG clock, "can't be bothered" - CC job is vacant
so now he is one?

How about "be a Captain and that qualifies to be considered"?

What if no Captain is available? It's really no different than the probationary time at LtCol. Presumably members who get the nod for that grade have proven themselves, so why have it probationary for a year?

The you find one and transfer him temporarily to the squadron until one can be found, or grown. 

"Wait..."i'm not driving all the way over there just to be a unit CC for people i don't know..."

Bam, fail.

There's no way to fix this in a meaningful way that justifies the effort.  The military can transfer a guy, or hold him back
indefinitely at their whim to "fix" their issues, businesses can find someone or sometimes leaves the job open and lean on the staff.

CAP can't do either of those even a little.

[Eclipse]

Just like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade  essentially indicates PD completion.

This.  gets repeated and ignored by people trying to "fix" things.

Use that time to get more missions, retain some people alienated because you held them back, or go looking for the VIRBS that are dropping
off planes left and right, but don't waste your time "fixing" this.

Especially with the pile of stuff in a heap in the corner no one wants to even looks at.

[Eclipse]

Actually, that is extremely uncommon once supervisory rank is reached (typically at sergeant). If whatever you did was bad enough to get demoted, it's usually enough for termination. The exceptions being failure to complete promotional probation period satisfactorily; reduction from exempt command ranks back to highest earned civil service rank when a new boss comes in (but that's typically to about lieutenant or captain, at worst); demotion due to reduction in slots due to budget cuts. I did know one chief who went all the way down to patrol officer, but it was a highly publicized "old times sake" thing immediately prior to retirement.

I suppose "common" is subjective, but in the myriad suburbs around me, there are plenty of instances of cops being deputy Chief one day and
back on the street the next - sometimes because of an election, sometimes because they just didn't want to bother with the admin stuff anymore.

I'll grant the Sgts getting knocked back w/o cause it more rare, if for no other reason then the unions, but it does happen.

[Spaceman3750]

Just like in CAP, the insignia only has meaning within the organization. Whether or not an outsider understands what any of it means is irrelevant. Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade  essentially indicates PD completion.

This.  gets repeated and ignored by people trying to "fix" things.

Use that time to get more missions, retain some people alienated because you held them back, or go looking for the VIRBS that are dropping
off planes left and right, but don't waste your time "fixing" this.

Especially with the pile of stuff in a heap in the corner no one wants to even looks at.

Then why do you keep advocating for changes?

[Eclipse]

Then why do you keep advocating for changes?

The changes I advocate for are deeper then the curtains, and further, if you're going to do something,
make it worth the time or don't bother.

Painting over rust makes things look nice for a short time, while actually making it worse.

[Storm Chaser]

Everyone in CAP knows that CAP grade  essentially indicates PD completion.

Not according to CAPR 35-5, which requires the member to "be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

As far as I'm concerned, members already get recognized for PD progression in the form of awards, certificates, ribbons, and specialty track badges. PD Levels are required for promotions, but promotions are not meant to recognize members for PD progression.

[Eclipse]

Not according to CAPR 35-5, which requires the member to "be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended."

Well, that's the rub - it's treated from a practical level as PD by everyone, until it's time to approve them,
and then the discussion becomes all about "accepting new challenges, etc.", when nary a word was spoken
about that before.

[Storm Chaser]

That's one of the problems. And one of the reasons we have so many field grade officers who don't have a clue.