Initial Promotion For Prior Military Officers and NCOs

[Майор Хаткевич]

Some units are better at this than others.

Admittedly, there's a poor way of compromising on Skills/former military experience. We have members who spend a decade or more getting to LtCol "organically", only to have people come in as a LtCol based on former military experience. Then we get into the arguments of "grade doesn't really mean anything". But then the members who do it organically hit all sorts of roadblocks when trying to work the PD, staff and leadership positions, and struggle to get Field Grade.

When field grade officers can't submit a retired E-9 for promotion to CMSgt without a CMSgt reviewing (and essentially approving/disapproving) the field grade officers' submission, it's hard to claim with a straight face that grade below colonel means a whole bunch (beyond eligibility for certain positions, PME, and customs and courtesies).

Hence the second half of my post.

[SarDragon]

Most of the CFIs in my unit have waited as long as a year to get their mission based promotion. We ask that they at least get qualified as a TMP, and prefer O-ride pilot quals. They need to be participating as a pilot before they get any promotions based on being a pilot.

[Storm Chaser]

I don't approve military or other special promotions unless the member is actively contributing, something that can't be demonstrated on day one.

[kwe1009]

I don't approve military or other special promotions unless the member is actively contributing, something that can't be demonstrated on day one.

And that is the way it should be done.  That is how it is done in my Wing.

[Майор Хаткевич]

We just had approval for a former AF Colonel to wear LtCol. He's been with us for over a year. No hard feelings from his end.

[kwe1009]

We just had approval for a former AF Colonel to wear LtCol. He's been with us for over a year. No hard feelings from his end.

I have heard of a few O-6 and above that join CAP and from what I have heard very few, if any, had an issue with "only" being an Lt Col.  I know of one GO who actually refused any advanced promotion.  He wanted to earn it like everyone else.

[Eclipse]

When the understanding is set properly from the first handshake, there's rarely issues.

The problem is far too many recruiting conversations start with "come and fly for free and we'll give you captain".

My conversations start with "these are the expectations and potential opportunities of membership".
I always start with and stress the word "expectations" on purpose.

[Robert Hartigan]

Make everyone a Colonel! And, bring back the Guayabera shirt, too. Are we talking about uniforms, yet?

A Colonel (any officers for that matter) in the military (rip or retired) should automatically get their equivalent grade, it should be part of their membership application. If you think the specter of not getting promoted in CAP is going to make a guy like that participate more then you are sadly mistaken. Promote the guy and then mine him like the resource he is! If he turns out to be a dead end then part ways. He (or she, I heard they let women in the military, now  ) isn't going to get anything out of it, he's already a Colonel. Besides, it doesn't count against you, you can have as many Colonels as you want to recruit.

It's a silly requirement to make a guy wait. Most likely, he is still going to wear a Defense Meritorious Service or a Legion of Merit ribbon so why not get some PAO mileage out of the guy joining; splash the paper with Colonel Smith joins local CAP unit! We're as cool as the Air Force, now press releases. 

[Mitchell 1969]

For all the readers here, CAP rank is just Honorary to the Air Force,


A CAP Officer must complete certain tasks, attend certain functions (such as a Wing convention), and so many years between promotions. Is it possible to be a Lt Col. in CAP with no High School degree, no skills, just good attendance at functions and limited hoops: Yes, I know of several. Ones has spent 30 years as a janitor, no High School. The Air Force thinks so little of our CAP rank that they require CAP to wear rank that is distinctively different from the military. And Military personnel are Instructed that they may chose to NOT Salute a CAP officer, because CAP rank is strictly Honorary, that's why Doctors, Lawyers, School Teachers, CFI's General Radio Telephone Operator license holders are "Given" advanced rank.

I think you have put forth some sort of "alternate universe" theory here.

CAP rank is not "honorary to the Air Force." It isn't even awarded by the Air Force. In fact, it's not "honorary" at all - it is quite real - to CAP. Which is all the real it needs to.

Of course, if you can cite a CAP or USAF regulation that states "CAP rank is just honorary to the Air Force," I'll issue a retraction. But, if you can't - I'd hope that you would retract your claim.

[Storm Chaser]

The problem is that in the Air Force, rank and grade are use differently than in CAP, with a few exceptions, which causes a lot of confusion not just to those in the outside, but for many of our members as well.

For example, how many times members in CAP Talk have been corrected that Maj is a grade, not a rank. In the Air Force Maj is a rank, with a pay grade of O-4. In addition, not all pay grades in the military have the same rank. A Corporal (E-4) outranks a Specialist (E-4). And within the same rank or grade, there is other criteria to determine who outranks who.

Rank/pay grades in the military are used to determine levels of authority and responsibility, as well as assignments. Not necessarily in CAP, where a squadron commander or wing director can be, and often is, a 1st Lt with members of higher grades under them.

Now, I agree that rank/grade in CAP is not honorary and is real to us. But since it's mostly used as a form of recognition, even though it has a lot of similarities with Air Force ranks, that makes it not quite real for what rank normally represents.

[MHC5096]

I'm partial to the way USNSCC handles officer promotions. Everyone initially serves a one year probationary period as an Instructor. Active, Reserve and Retired military have the option of wearing thier service uniform/military grade while serving as Instructors.

After the probationary year is completed, members may apply for an appointment to Ensign (O-1) provided they have met all other promotion criteria or they may opt to remain as Instructors indefinitely. Prior service personnel, over 35 years old, who obtained the grade of E-6 and above with at least 8 years of military service also have the option of applying for a Warrant Officer (W-2) appointment.

Lieutenant (O-3) and Lieutenant Commander (O-4) promotion packages go before a national selection board. The highest grade a member may be promoted to is Lieutenant Commander (O-4).

[Майор Хаткевич]

The thing about revamping CAPs structure is a question of "what then?" I'm willing to bet a large number of our members are invested in the current system, for what it's worth, because in most cases it shows a natural progression. Do the PD, do the job, put in the time, earn recognition via higher grade and responsibility. If we decouple the grade from positions, then where do we arrive? Maj. Gen for Nat. CC, (say) Gen for Region, Col for wing, LtCol for Group, Maj for Squadron, Capt for Dept. Head, 1st Lt for Duty Position, 2d Lt for assistant, and Member for all others? Get a ribbon w/device to show highest achievement, but revert to whichever after your term in X position level? It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?

[JeffDG]

The thing about revamping CAPs structure is a question of "what then?" I'm willing to bet a large number of our members are invested in the current system, for what it's worth, because in most cases it shows a natural progression. Do the PD, do the job, put in the time, earn recognition via higher grade and responsibility. If we decouple the grade from positions, then where do we arrive? Maj. Gen for Nat. CC, (say) Gen for Region, Col for wing, LtCol for Group, Maj for Squadron, Capt for Dept. Head, 1st Lt for Duty Position, 2d Lt for assistant, and Member for all others? Get a ribbon w/device to show highest achievement, but revert to whichever after your term in X position level? It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?

I've proposed this before, but I'll put it here again.

First, start at CAP/CC as Maj Gen, for each echelon, drop one step:
National CC:  Maj Gen
Region CC:  B Gen
Wing CC:  Col
Group CC:  Lt Col
Sq CC:  Maj
Flt CC:  Capt

From there, I would say 3 "tiers" of staff:  Command Staff, Senior Staff, Junior Staff
Command Staff:  Vice Commander, Deputy Commander, Chief of Staff
Senior:  Anyone who at Wing is designated as "Director of..."
Junior:  Rest

The staff sits as follows:
Command:  1 step below CC (ie. National CV and CS get B Gen, Region get Col)
Senior:  2 steps below CC (Wing DO is a Major, Squadron DO is 1st Lt)
Junior:  3 steps below CC (Squadron SnackO is 2nd Lt)

Finally, Assistants sit one step below their primary.

Holding onto grade:  I would suggest that if you hold a position for a period of time, say 2 years, you could retrain that grade in a "graduated" entitlement.  So, spend 2 years as a Wing/CS, you get to keep Lt Col.  At the same time, I would remove the "Field Grade" bars off the rank insignia, and add them to "current holders" of rank.  So, if you're a current Wing/CC, there's a bar on your bird epaulets, if you're a graduated Wing/CC, still wear the birds, but no bar on them.

At least with that, if you see someone with Lt Col running around, you know that they hold or have held a position of considerable responsibility (Group Command, Wing/CV or CS, Region Senior Staff, or National Staff).  Even if they no longer hold that position, you at least know that they've "been there, done that" and should have a pretty good idea of how stuff works.

[MHC5096]

"It starts to look like the USCG Aux model, but is it really any better than what we have now?"

Nope. Not really. We still get to wear our stripes after we leave a position in the Coast Guard Auxiliary as long as we complete at least 50% of our elected or appointed term. At least in CAP when you see someone with bars or oak leaves on you know that they met a minimum standard (TIG, TIS, PME) to put them on. In the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I could be wearing a gold bar today, take another job tomorrow and be wearing silver oak leaves.

[Eclipse]

It's still broken the first time the former Wing CC returns to a squadron assignment, there's simply no way around that issue.

Until it's "up and / or out" the fixes just shuffle the broken.

Want to be a Major?  Then you can't stick around here, been nice hanging with you, hope you trained at least 2-3 potential replacements.

There should be no one higher then a Capt at the squadron level and the group people should all be Majors.  Not qualified for Major?
Then seriously, you're not qualified to be serving at the Group level anyway, same goes for Lt Col for Wing.  The region should be all birds.
And even that is broken because unless you bring in a star at wing, two at region and three-4 at NHQ.

Here's a thought - how about temporary / administrative reduction in grade if you circle back around?  Wing king wants to be unit coffee officer for awhile?
Fine, Col Bird becomes Capt Bird until such time as he has a primary unit of assignment again at the Wing or higher.

That, would at least show the lay of the land to everyone where you fit in the CAP universe.

[JeffDG]

Nope. Not really. We still get to wear our stripes after we leave a position in the Coast Guard Auxiliary. At least in CAP when you see someone with bars or oak leaves on you know that they met a minimum standard (TIG, TIS, PME) to put them on. In the Coast Guard Auxiliary, I could be wearing a gold bar today, take another job tomorrow and be wearing silver oak leaves.

Can do that in CAP too.  Join today, Wing Commander likes you and appoints you "Legislative Liaison", and Boom...insta-silver oak leaves.

[JeffDG]

It's still broken the first time the former Wing CC returns to a squadron assignment, there's simply no way around that issue.

Until it's "up and / or out" the fixes just shuffle the broken.

Want to be a Major?  The you can't stick around here, been nice hanging with you, hope you trained at least 2-3 potential replacements.

Here's a thought - how about temporary / administrative reduction in grade if you circle back around?  Wing king wants to be unit coffee officer for awhile?
Fine, Col Bird becomes Capt Bird until such time as he has a primary unit of assignment again at the Wing or higher.

That, would at least show the lay of the land to everyone where you fit in the CAP universe.

Then that Wing/CC can either wear the birds in the "graduated" form, or pin on the rank appropriate to the assignment.

[Майор Хаткевич]

But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.

[Storm Chaser]

While I'm not opposed to a system like that, I think the bigger issue is not the wing commander who returns to a squadron as a Col, but the Lt Col who got promoted without ever leaving the squadron or even holding a primary position. We have plenty of those.

[JeffDG]

But from a perception standpoint, nothing changes. Still a bunch of people wearing a lot of "high end" bling at the lowly unit level.

So?

At least those people wearing "high end" bling have been-there, done-that.  Unlike now, when you can get that high end bling without ever leaving the local unit level just by putting time in.