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Transgender Policy

Started by CAPDCCMOM, May 13, 2016, 05:21:13 PM

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Spam

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on May 13, 2016, 10:07:28 PM
^^^^^^^^^ Capt. You indeed Sir are a man of Integrity and courage and I take my hat off to you Sir. May my own sons have your courage. You have a place at my table anytime, home or my Squadron

Second that, Ma'am.  Rob, well said.

V/R
Spam


LSThiker

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 04:27:41 AM
Hmm, well, that's a good point, LST. We're all a product of our upbringing, and my intent of the use of the word "confused" could equally have been met by "undecided", or some other word indicating a lack of a stable sex identity. Adolescent self identity being a moving target, was my thought there, and CAP needs to not intrude either pro or con, except to keep the lid on with respect to the CPP. Note, please, how I used those words in context: that ALL of our cadets, of whatever identity, should be protected. I'm probably not as reactionary as you might suspect in this regard, nor as closed minded towards the varied backgrounds and beliefs of my fellow men (fellow Trekkers out there, look up "IDIC").  I'm also sympathetic to those who desire to serve our nation, from any walk of life or background, and I had a guy "in the life" next to my wife and I on the altar at my wedding. I continue to have close friendships with such friends with whom we agree to respectfully debate, and more often than not, agree.  A couple of them have repeatedly used the word "confused" to me referring to their adolescent struggles with identity, so that's where I was coming from. No offense intended.

IDIC very much so.

Unfortunately, I think your personal opinion showed much more than you were hoping to.  Of course, in no way, shape, or form does any rationale person believe that we (CAP) should not protect any youth/child/cadet in our program.  Nor was it anything I disagreed with your message.  Nevertheless, in general these types of "discussions" involve too much personal opinion removing it from the "rationale" debate.  As I  pointed out in your word choice:  "cave to this pressure", "men legally allowed to enter womens restroom/locker rooms" and the "confused/normal".  I would like to point out that men are not being legally allowed to enter women's restrooms, rather transgender women are being allowed to enter women's restrooms and vice versa.


QuoteWe've no business AT ALL advocating or ministering to our adolescent members in terms of helping them question, validate, "assert", or "fix" their sexual identity, either heterosexual OR homosexual. Not. Our. Job.

QuoteShould we end up going beyond ensuring equal protection as part of the CPP, towards inventing some sort of program to reach out to and validate or encourage questioning youth to pursue their sexual development (along whatever lines), I feel that would split our membership irreparably, and lead to a massive schism in our program.

I agree that CAP should not be "advocating or ministering" to our members regarding transgender, nor did the OP suggest such a thing.  Has anyone in CAP even suggested inventing such a program to encourage or validate sexual development?  Or "going beyond ensuring equal protection"?  I have never heard, seen, or read any such idea, suggestion, or hearsay and would welcome your evidence of such.  Therefore, I am not quite sure where such a comment fits into the discussion.  The only thing I have read, heard, discussed, etc is creating a policy that promotes equal protection of transgender cadets, which I guess you could flimsy extend to mean encouraging or validating their sexual identity.  That is, if CAP accepts the gender identity of a transgender youth, then CAP must be encouraging or validating (falsely I might add) their sexual identity.  After all, if CAP accepts a male youth as a male, then CAP would also be encouraging and/or validating their sexual identity as well.     

I am also not sure how we jumped from gender identity to sexual identity.  The two are different.  Gender identity refers to whether the person identifies as "male" or female", while sexual identity refers to their conception of romantic attraction for which gender.  It is actually different than sexual orientation, but for this board I will just keep sexual identity and sexual orientation as the same.  Therefore, a transgender person can be either heterosexual or homosexual as much as a cis-gender person can be heterosexual or homosexual.   

Spam

Quote from: LSThiker on May 14, 2016, 05:26:03 AM

Unfortunately, I think your personal opinion showed much more than you were hoping to.  <snip> As I  pointed out in your word choice:  "cave to this pressure", "men legally allowed to enter womens restroom/locker rooms" and the "confused/normal".  I would like to point out that men are not being legally allowed to enter women's restrooms, rather transgender women are being allowed to enter women's restrooms and vice versa.

... The only thing I have read, heard, discussed, etc is creating a policy that promotes equal protection of transgender cadets, which I guess you could flimsy extend to mean encouraging or validating their sexual identity. 

Well, first, I want to ask why the repeated mentions - you're seemingly trying to demonize my personal opinion with the ad hominem attacks, as if I have some hidden agenda, or to make my language seem sinister somehow?


Then, I'd like to point out that for the issue under discussion, the administrations letter this week specifically instructs schools to ignore medical and legal documentation when honoring student claims - so YES, specific to THIS line of discussion, people ARE being allowed to enter the opposite facilities from their current physical sex. To pretend otherwise is sophistry, I think.


As to my suspicious nature:  HRC is known as a strongly left leaning homosexual activist organization with questionable adherence to the leftist principles of "tolerance" (see the anti-Republican and Christian bashing on their website, where those who disagree with them are labeled "hate groups"). The guide for changing schools is listed on their site, too. Interesting reading, and I wonder how much we will be "advised" that we're "required" to change our CAP program to support K-12 transitions, as they strongly advocate.

Time will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

Cheers
Spam



LSThiker

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:08:18 AM

Then, I'd like to point out that for the issue under discussion, the administrations letter this week specifically instructs schools to ignore medical and legal documentation when honoring student claims - so YES, specific to THIS line of discussion, people ARE being allowed to enter the opposite facilities from their current physical sex. To pretend otherwise is sophistry, I think.

It is not sophistry, but rather important distinctions.  Male and female refer to the biological sex.  Man and woman refer to the gender and the social constructs associated with that.  So again, no men are allowed into women's bathrooms.  Rather transgender women are allowed into women's restrooms.  However, yes, biological males that are transgender women are allowed into women's restrooms. 

Quote
As to my suspicious nature:  HRC is known as a strongly left leaning homosexual activist organization with questionable adherence to the leftist principles of "tolerance" (see the anti-Republican and Christian bashing on their website, where those who disagree with them are labeled "hate groups"). The guide for changing schools is listed on their site, too. Interesting reading, and I wonder how much we will be "advised" that we're "required" to change our CAP program to support K-12 transitions, as they strongly advocate.

And how are they relevant to this?  Are they CAP?  Are they funding or being funded by CAP?  Are they solely guiding CAP's policy on transgenderism?

I ask again, has anyone in CAP even suggested inventing such a program to encourage or validate sexual development?  Or "going beyond ensuring equal protection"?

QuoteTime will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

Sure, but has any one in CAP suggested that we discuss sex or gender with cadets in CAP?  Would this have been a CDI discussion? After all, asking what the gender of a person when they join is hardly a discussion of sex or gender. 

Storm Chaser

#24
Respect is a two way street. It's easy to talk about tolerance and acceptance as long as others agree with our opinions, stances, and values. Our society is so concerned with being politically correct that many people compromise their own views and values in the name of acceptance, tolerance, and respect.

One does not have to agree with something that's against our believes in order to be respectful. Disagreeing or pointing out our own views is not disrespect, as long as we allow others to do the same. We all have different views and values and, while we should be open to dialog, that's not the same as compromising our integrity because of fear of offending someone.

We all need to be true to ourselves and our believes. That's an integral part of our core value of integrity.

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Storm Chaser on May 14, 2016, 01:50:33 PM
Respect is a two way street. It's easy to talk about tolerance and acceptance as long as others agree with our opinions, stances, and values. Our society is so concerned with being politically correct that many people compromise their own views and values in the name of acceptance, tolerance, and respect.


Respect is also earned. People can say what they want/feel/believe, and I'll "tolerate and accept" their right to voice their opinion, but it doesn't mean others have to respect their views.

Spam

Quote from: LSThiker on May 14, 2016, 01:41:52 PM
Sure, but has any one in CAP suggested that we discuss sex or gender with cadets in CAP?  Would this have been a CDI discussion? After all, asking what the gender of a person when they join is hardly a discussion of sex or gender.


Actually, yes, I have heard numerous CAP officers suggest that, in five Wings over three Regions over the years - North, South, and West - and I'm wary of it, now more than ever with these national events and with, apparently, inviting an activist from only one side of the argument to a sponsored National Conference event.


I have had (over 30 something years) the occasional Chaplain who felt it was a deep seated "need" and within his duty responsibility to administer a sermon within a Moral Leadership/Character Development session, to the extent where they spent an hour preaching their religious beliefs. I've also had (twice) a Chaplain/CDI (one each) who felt it his duty to hold a session preaching the "evils of homosexuality" to cadets. I've stopped these practices immediately on discovery, back briefed all hands on our EEO policy, and privately counseled the Chaplains/CDI on our policy to use the approved "Values for Living" curriculum and not to freelance with pushing their privately held beliefs on our adolescents, using the "bully pulpit" of leadership.


Similarly, I'm concerned that equally deeply held beliefs from activists on the OTHER side of the spectrum will see a "need" to administer education and counseling to our adolescents on their beliefs re, this issue. Such isn't appropriate. My personal views on these issues (and yours, everyone), are immaterial. We shouldn't allow crusaders of either camp to take over our program, and should be vigilant against the possibility.


CAP is not the venue for preaching to developing adolescents in our trust - either to tell cadets about what they need to do for their immortal souls to keep from burning, or that's it OK to mutilate their genitals to match their developing self identities. Both are parental issues, not ours. Live and let live, preserve equal access and move on to execute the mission.


V/R
Spam


Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM
CAP is not the venue for preaching to developing adolescents in our trust - either to tell cadets about what they need to do for their immortal souls to keep from burning, or that's it OK to mutilate their genitals to match their developing self identities.


Didn't have to bring up circumcision did we?

Spam

Didn't!... and, Didn't!

Spam

(modified to add second "didn't"!)

MSG Mac

Bottom line is that the only disqualifiers for membership are:

1. Felony conviction (waiverable)
2. Citizenship (waiverable)
3. Minimum age

Sexual orientation is not a reason to deny membership and hasn't been for a long time if it ever was.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Storm Chaser

We've never denied membership because of sexual orientation. That has nothing to do with the uniform you wear or the bathroom you use. We have policies in place, which must be followed regardless of personal views or agendas. I'm fine with having the discussion as long as it's a two way conversation.

Flying Pig

So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform? 

Storm Chaser

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 15, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform?

Under current policy, unless he's legally changed his gender, he would have to wear a male uniform.

Flying Pig

I know these can spiral off out of control... but if a male has been legally changed to identify as a female do they billet with females at CAP activities?   

PHall

Quote from: Flying Pig on May 15, 2016, 01:19:36 PM
So if a man is transgendered as a woman... can he wear a female uniform?

If something "official" like a Drivers License says he's female, yes.

Ned

Quote from: Spam on May 14, 2016, 07:42:15 PM


Time will tell. Hope I'm proven wrong, that we fence the discussion to ensuring we protect and accommodate all cadets as much as possible, but that we stay OUT of discussing sex and gender with our cadets, leaving that to parents alone.

I think we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, and I think we will probably find that even our areas of apparent disagreement are more likely semantic differences in some of the nuances of this difficult area.  For instance, the discussions to date (and scheduled for August) are indeed intensely focused on protecting and accommodating cadets and not on promoting any ideas or agendas. 

Let me start by reassuring you and others that CAP wholeheartedly agrees that the difficult task of raising children is the responsibility of the parents and other family members.  And this particularly true in this sensitive area. 

But I suspect that you would agree that CAP has a role in helping parents produce successful young adults.  (Alongside other organizations that parents and society trust to help guide young folks to success like churches, schools, organized sports, etc.)  Indeed, helping parents produce successful "former cadets" is sort of the whole point of the Cadet Program - our very reason for existence.  In my heart I know that is the precise reason that CP volunteer professionals like yourself and countless others volunteer your time and treasure.

However, I think it may go too far to suggest that CAP should never address certain issues that confront young people - particularly issues that challenge both young people and adults.

We have a character development program for a reason - to help prepare our cadets to be outstanding leaders and valued members of the community.  It would be easy to say "we should never address the delicate subject of 'X' - that should be reserved exclusively to parents."  It sure would make running a squadron easier.

But we do take on difficult topics in a sensitive age-appropriate manner in our CD program.  We talk about things as simple as using respect, pranks, hazing, and good manners, but also more challenging topics like drug use, self-esteem, being protective and inclusive for members with a disability, self-harm, privacy on-line, and having the courage to say "no."  (See the latest volume of Values for Living, CAPP 265-2.)

Any/all of those topics are - by definition - the primary responsibility of the parents, but CAP has a role to play in supporting the parents through our CD program.

But in a larger sense, any CAP "Transgendered Policy" will be not be a single lesson plan in the next volume of Values of Living, but an important part of a broader policy aimed squarely at being welcoming and inclusive for the entire membership. 

Clearly this is a difficult and controversial subject for many Americans, and reasonable people often can hold conflicting views on what CAP's policy should be, or even whether CAP needs to have a policy in the first place.

But I'm hoping that the great majority of CAP members can agree that CAP should be a welcoming and wholesome environment for everyone that qualifies for membership.  And that's what we'll be talking about at the seminar in August.  Making our successful CP work for all of our cadets.

Will I see you in August?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager





Chappie

^^^Ned...well said and I whole-heartedly concur.  It is my hope that our sessions will not be scheduled concurrently so that I can be in attendance. 
Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

Shuman 14

Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: shuman14 on May 16, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\


What's the legal gender? There have been cases of people having X sex organs, but having the opposite chromosomes.

Ned

Quote from: shuman14 on May 16, 2016, 06:31:13 PM
Simple question, if a genetic male cadet (i.e.  two distinct sex chromosomes (XY), called the heterogametic sex) identifies as female, which physical fitness test scale should he/she use?  :-\

Since units do not have access to adequate testing facilities for DNA or chromosomal analysis, our existing policy is to be guided by the legal gender in the unit's location.  Then it's pretty easy from there.

Interestingly, under the new Active Cadet Program, the gender differences in PT standards are significantly reduced, so it is unlikely to make a significant difference either way.