Hydration Systems & The Uniform

Started by MIKE, May 08, 2005, 12:02:25 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MIKE

As I cited in the other thread:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 2-5. Clothing/Accessory Standards
17 "Camel Pack" Water Containers Authorized for use with CAP field uniform or BDU only, in hot
weather conditions, with or without built-in backpack. Will be black, brown, or camouflaged.

Do you think this requirement will just be ignored?  I know many CAP members who use civilian pattern hydration systems which I feel do not meet the requirements as specified... Some even have military pattern Camelbaks or Hydrastorms which also do not meet standards.  I understand that the above cite mirrors USAF and US Army policy for these hydration systems.

Lets take a look at Camelbaks that meet this new standard.

Black:


Brown: Well... It's technically coyote, but it looks to be about the same color brown as my BDU T-shirts.


Camouflaged:


This one is also camouflaged although I'd argue that the intent was that this pattern not be authorized as we don't wear DCU's:


The ones they didn't authorize:

Olive Drab:  Would have matched the BDU better than coyote which I think would look horrid IMO.


This one would have matched the CAP Distinctive Field Uniform well IMO:


Surprised they didn't authorize this one.  PAWG supplement is forthcoming I suppose:  :D


Again, I don't consider the 3 Color Desert Camouflaged models as meeting standards.

If you are in the market for a hydration system that meets standards, you should be looking at Camelbaks military line or Hydrastorms by Blackhawk.  I'd say, don't waste your money on a pack that doesn't meet standards or stick to your standard GI 1 or 2 quart canteen or your fancy backpackers water bottle you got from EMS or REI.

Contact me if you need assistance finding a hydration system that meets CAPM 39-1 standards.



Mike Johnston

flying Raptor

I got an orange and black one(not the flightline one) for christmas before teh new reg came out. Do you think they will let me get away with it at encampment considering canteens aren't in the regulation.
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

MIKE

Quote from: flying Raptor on May 08, 2005, 01:28:27 AM
I got an orange and black one(not the flightline one) for christmas before teh new reg came out. Do you think they will let me get away with it at encampment considering canteens aren't in the regulation.

Like I said in the other thread:

Probably.  I figure most everybody will ignore the new standards.  The average CAP member doesn't care that much about the uniform anyway.  I would probably call you on it though since I know the standards, but if it's all you brought then there isn't really anything that can be done... They could send you home, but thats pretty extreme in this case.

I know of some encampments that did not allow Camelbak type packs for first timers or for everyone.  They required GI 1 quart canteens with covers and LCE belts for uniformity... Or provided suitable water bottles.

GI plastic 1 quart canteen(s), covers(s) and an LCE belt can be had relatively cheaply.  Don't buy the ones at Walmart... They suck.  GI 2 quarts with the cover and shoulder strap are a poor choice for CAP use also IMO, but YMMV.

Hydrate or die!
Mike Johnston

flying Raptor

I have one canteen, but it doesn't say in the regulation that we can wear it, i guess they didn't think it through when they wrote it
c/CMSgt. Daniel Rufener
NER-PA-310
Honor Guard Commander
Raven Honor Guard

Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid. -Murphy's laws

MIKE

Quote from: flying Raptor on May 08, 2005, 01:48:10 AM
I have one canteen, but it doesn't say in the regulation that we can wear it, i guess they didn't think it through when they wrote it

Canteens and LCE are not considered clothing or accessories like hydration systems have been... It's individual equipment that is covered by separate directives...  It would be stupid to say that Camelbacks are required and canteens or water bottles are not authorized because they are not included in Table 2-5.
Mike Johnston

Xeno

Quote from: MIKE on May 08, 2005, 12:02:25 AM
As I cited in the other thread:

Quote from: CAPM 39-1 Table 2-5. Clothing/Accessory Standards
17 "Camel Pack" Water Containers Authorized for use with CAP field uniform or BDU only, in hot
weather conditions, with or without built-in backpack. Will be black, brown, or camouflaged.

Do you think this requirement will just be ignored?  I know many CAP members who use civilian pattern hydration systems which I feel do not meet the requirements as specified... Some even have military pattern Camelbaks or Hydrastorms which also do not meet standards.  I understand that the above cite mirrors USAF and US Army policy for these hydration systems.

I've personally seen it ignored many a time already. I visited an out-of-state air show recently and saw several CAP units working crowd control. Some of these guys had the standard civilian packs that you can buy at target or walmart. It's going to be a problem, many of these "civie packs" cost as much as $25 cheaper than the military styled ones. And they have additional pouches for storage of items and whotnot. Of course, they probabally fall apart after a SAREX or two.
C/1st Lt. Josh Sims
C/CC SWR-AR-095

121.5 -- If you crash, we will dash...

MIKE

#6
Quote from: Xeno on May 24, 2005, 04:02:28 AM
I've personally seen it ignored many a time already. I visited an out-of-state air show recently and saw several CAP units working crowd control. Some of these guys had the standard civilian packs that you can buy at target or walmart. It's going to be a problem, many of these "civie packs" cost as much as $25 cheaper than the military styled ones. And they have additional pouches for storage of items and whotnot. Of course, they probabally fall apart after a SAREX or two.

Keep in mind that many of them probably haven't seen the manual... Didn't get my hands on our squadrons paper copy until a week or so ago... And again it will probably be ignored because of the cost to replace functional equipment.  I doubt we we see the day when someone is turned away from an activity or mission because they have a purple and gray pack from EMS... You can bet it won't be me.

We had an activity this past week and weekend where cadets and seniors were to prepare UDF equipment. I think almost everybody had some type of hydration pack.  Of the members present three of us had black Camelbaks of various styles (including me), one had a woodland camo Mule and one had a coyote Thromobak (Didn't look as bad as I thought, but still not preferred for the current uniform IMO.), the others had packs by REI, EMS etc and even non-military Camelbaks which were various colors.

Of the members who had military Camelbaks, one member had purchased two Mules for himself and his son at Devens RFTA at somewhat reduced cost than could be found elsewhere.  As I understand it, since these are now to be considered a uniform item it makes them available to members via AAFESS MCSS.

I probably need to replace my older model black Themobak... I've had it for years and I think it was leaking last weekend... I don't know what I will get but it will be a Camelbak or Hydrastorm and it most likely will be black... I really like the Transformer... I like how I can have a no frills water only pack like my Themobak and larger packs to haul gear in one system.  It is kind of pricey though.
Mike Johnston

MIKE

#7
* Bump *

I am reviving this thread as I intend for it to be a resource for members who wish to purchase hydration systems which meet the specifications listed in CAPM 39-1 Table 2-5.

With Army Combat Uniform digital camouflage pattern hydration systems now readily available, I thought it would be a good idea to add them to my list as it seems they are finding there way into the hands of CAP members.  I am of the opinion that while the ACU pattern is certainly camouflaged, one must go to intent... IMO CAP only intended that woodland camouflaged patterned hydration systems would be the camouflaged pattern authorized since it matches the BDU.

ACU Camouflaged:


Mike Johnston

Mac

Quote from: MIKE on November 02, 2005, 04:16:16 PM
IMO CAP only intended that woodland camouflaged patterned hydration systems would be the camouflaged pattern authorized since it matches the BDU.

You would think that they would have included the words "Woodland green" in the verbage for the Hydration system authorization as they did in Table 2-3 or describing the BDU shirt and trousers.
Derk MacPherson, Lt Col, CAP
Vice Commander
Alaska Wing, PCR-AK-001

tribalelder

Do you put your orange vest over or under the black, brown or woodland hydration system ?
WE ARE HERE ON CAPTALK BECAUSE WE ALL CARE ABOUT THE PROGRAM. We may not always agree and we should not always agree.  One of our strengths as an organization is that we didn't all go to the same school, so we all know how to do something different and differently. 
Since we all care about CAP, its members and our missions, sometimes our discussions will be animated, but they should always civil -- after all, it's in our name.

MIKE

Quote from: tribalelder on January 20, 2006, 07:13:21 PM
Do you put your orange vest over or under the black, brown or woodland hydration system ?

My orange reflective vest happens to fit over my Camelbak and LBE.  I can get at the pouches on my LBE without much difficulty.  With a different type of orange vest or gear... A larger backpack style hydration system for example, this may not be possible.  Possible solution being to attach a panel marker to the pack.

As I see it, the color standards are meant for when you would wear the hydration system, but do not require an orange vest.  Don't think of it solely in terms of ES.

Camelbak does make orange reflective models BTW... They just aren't authorized per CAPM 39-1.
Mike Johnston

Matt

Well then, I guess one just has to sew or VELCRO a vest to the orange Camelbak and life's good... then you're simply decking out your vest, not donning unauthorized gear  ;).
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

MIKE

The whole point of the standards is so the hydration system is treated as an accessory to the uniform. Much the same as a pair of gloves  or a handbag is, all of which are supposed to meet established standards in order to wear it as part of the uniform for which it is authorized.
Mike Johnston

Nathan

Here's my interpretation of the whole camelback deal.

No one can expect someone to memorize all of the regs, especially something as vague as a camelback color. However, I think that it is meant to be seen by activity planners. For instance, I could be faulted for putting on a gear list, "Bring a gray camelback." If I simply put, "Bring a camelback", and someone brought a gray camelback, then in a way it is my fault for not being specific and their fault for not being 39-1 savvy, so I would not send them home from the activity, but rather tell them to read up on their manual and bring the right color next time, however i would allow them to use the camelback.

If, finally, I said, "Bring an authorized camelback per CAPM 39-1 ONLY", and someone brought a gray camelback, then I would take one of the spare canteens that I assume most activity directors pack and they would be using canteens for the rest of the activity.

Then again, I'm a stickler for the publications, so YMMV.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

MIKE

Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2006, 09:35:44 PM
Then again, I'm a stickler for the publications, so YMMV.

Your post seems to be advocating the opposite.  8)
Mike Johnston

shorning

Quote from: MIKE on January 20, 2006, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 20, 2006, 09:35:44 PM
Then again, I'm a stickler for the publications, so YMMV.

Your post seems to be advocating the opposite.  8)

C'mon Mike, you should know by now that Nathan likes to play devil's advocate.  If nothing else, to "cause people to think".

Eclipse

The camelpacks are becoming the replacement for the canteen belt and I agree
that they are far superior.

If worn without anything over it - say during drill at an an encampment - I can understand why they want it to be a subdued color, so it blends into the uniform.

During SAR activities it's likely a non issue as you just put your LBV or vest over it and no one will even see it.

Mine is a bright blue which I got free from a motorcycle agency, as a commander and
SET, I don't feel I have any lattitude with regs.  I have to set the example. So my solution will be create velcro panels to change the color.  I've obtained an unservicable woodland blouse from our uniform stash, and am going to sew camo panels for use over my blouse at encampments, and bright blaze orange panels for use during SAR activities - when I'm on the bike I'll leave it blue.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Quote from: Eclipse on January 21, 2006, 01:32:57 AM
Mine is a bright blue which I got free from a motorcycle agency, as a commander and
SET, I don't feel I have any lattitude with regs.  I have to set the example. So my solution will be create velcro panels to change the color.  I've obtained an unservicable woodland blouse from our uniform stash, and am going to sew camo panels for use over my blouse at encampments, and bright blaze orange panels for use during SAR activities - when I'm on the bike I'll leave it blue.

Check this out.
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

#18
Nice - gives me an idea - as long as I have the sewing machine I may be able to build one of the above and integrate the hydro into my LBV which would be SWEET!

"That Others May Zoom"

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: MIKE on January 21, 2006, 02:00:21 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 21, 2006, 01:32:57 AM
Mine is a bright blue which I got free from a motorcycle agency, as a commander and
SET, I don't feel I have any lattitude with regs.  I have to set the example. So my solution will be create velcro panels to change the color.  I've obtained an unservicable woodland blouse from our uniform stash, and am going to sew camo panels for use over my blouse at encampments, and bright blaze orange panels for use during SAR activities - when I'm on the bike I'll leave it blue.

Check this out.


Blackhawk has had something similar for a few years now.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn