When to self ground, vs when to 'man up' and just DO IT

[Live2Learn]

Ok, oh Wise Ones:

What's your interpretation of FAR 67 and 61.53?  This is a topic I think might be ripe for a safety discussion among pilots.  When should a good, upstanding CAP pilot self ground?  What specific acute illnesses or conditions do you thing it's ok to fly with, and what would illness/condition would self ground?

Does anyone have a war story with names, dates, and places changed to protect the innocent and avoid problems with the 5th Amendment?  For example, I recall a very experienced pilot a few years ago that flew with a toothache...  (I wasn't with him, but learned of it later).  I heard from a mutual friend that he had an abscessed tooth that he 'toughed it out' through about 10 hours spread over two days... before he flew home.  In retrospect, someone in the know maybe should have intervened and suggested he call someone to drive him home (or maybe not??? what's your opinion)?

Do we have any AME's on forum who might offer some genuine 'expert' advice???

[C/SrA Ravlin]

Any time a CAP pilot feels grounding a flight is appropriate is when it should happen. If they don't feel like flying that day (within reason) they should ground themselves because they could miss something since they are not paying attention. And any illness is a reason to ground a flight...

[vento]

IMSAFE checklist and Common Sense ORM should be more than enough to help the AirCrew (not just the pilot) make the responsible Go No-Go decision. "Man up" shouldn't be part of the decision process.

[Storm Chaser]

Nothing we do in CAP is that critical that would justify the potential for a mishap. If you don't feel well, then don't fly that sortie. Trust me, we'll manage.

[docsteve]

This is an issue that the FAA has been addressing for some time, especially with respect to the not so obvious health issues.  PAVE and ADM (PAVE = Personal/Aeronautical/enVironment/External [pressures]; ADM = Aeronautical Decision Making)  are examples of initiatives to increase pilot awareness regarding the risk factors associated with pilots' decreased abilities when -- for example -- illness or stress hinder the in-flight decision-making process. 

Anyone who does not do a full personal assessment -- medical, psychological -- violates multiple FARs, whether or not an accident results.  Fatigue, divorce, a death in the family (including a pet), a cold, an allergy, a hangover, any of these things may make a pilot medically deficient.  This is not comething for an AME to determine: it is something for the pilot him- or her-self to determine.

[Holding Pattern]

PAVE and ADM (PAVE = Personal/Aeronautical/enVironment/External [pressures]; ADM = Aeronautical Decision Making)

Thank you for taking the time to explain what your acronyms meant.

[SMWOG]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

[SarDragon]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

[Live2Learn]

OK.  I see a few specifics.  Useful, thanks.

Next a followup: example:  Here's a quote I heard one time from another crusty FRO/CAP Pilot:  "AAAAAA is a big boy, he can make the decision whether he's well enough to fly..."  Turned out AAAAA flew, but the 'big boy' had a few issues with congestion and ears... A while later his spouse commented to the sqdrn CC how sick he was when he got home...   How often do Bro CAP pilots (and the FRO) bear some responsibility to 'help' another pilot make a 'good' decision?   FWIW, according to the flight release page the FRO is to review "IMSAFE" with the pilot as a prerequisite of approving it...  and my read is also to AGREE with the assessment.  So, waddaya think?  What is 'too sick' to fly?  Where would you draw the red line in the sand (no political innuendo here).

[Eclipse]

How, exactly, does a female pilot "man up"?

[Live2Learn]

How, exactly, does a female pilot "man up"?

It's all in the language. 

[SMWOG]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

[Майор Хаткевич]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

Depends. What does viloate mean?

[SarDragon]

There are ppl who are AC or MO who should not be flying due to medical reasons.

People? This isn't Twitter. Whole words and sentences are encouraged here.

As for the basic comment, care to elaborate? Give instances?

Why cant I use ppl...Does it viloate the forum rules?

Broadly, yes.

From Membership Code of Conduct (emphasis mine):

The  discussion boards are intended to be an open community where all Civil Air Patrol members can participate freely.  However, keep in mind that a certain level of professionalism must be maintained on the discussion board.  Therefore, we have a code of conduct which all members will adhere to.

Please use proper spelling and grammar, as some homonyms have very different meanings.

PM also sent.

[SMWOG]

Ok

[etodd]

Ok

Ummmm. Yes, I see what you did there. LOL

[Mustang]

Ok, oh Wise Ones:

What's your interpretation of FAR 67 and 61.53?  This is a topic I think might be ripe for a safety discussion among pilots.  When should a good, upstanding CAP pilot self ground?  What specific acute illnesses or conditions do you thing it's ok to fly with, and what would illness/condition would self ground?

The basic guideline is simply this: don't fly if you don't feel well.  The consequences of not being fully alert and functioning can be simply too great to risk flying under the weather.  You're the best judge of whether you feel well enough and alert enough to fly.

Beyond that, AOPA has put together an excellent article on this subject:  Self-Grounding for Medical Deficiency

I'll highlight this section in particular:

Part 67 of the Federal Aviation Regulations specifically mentions 15 medical conditions that are disqualifying by "history or clinical diagnosis." These include:

   
• A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts
• A psychosis
• Bipolar disorder
• Substance dependence (including alcohol)
• Substance abuse
• Epilepsy
• Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Transient loss of nervous system function without satisfactory explanation of the cause
• Diabetes requiring oral hypoglycemic medications or insulin
• Myocardial infarction
• Angina pectoris
• Coronary heart disease that has required treatment or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant
• Cardiac valve replacement
• Permanent cardiac pacemaker
• Heart replacement[/l][/l][/l][/l]

Any one of these conditions requires immediate self-grounding by the airman until cleared by the FAA (typically via a Special Issuance medical certificate).

For any other condition--including ANY new prescription medications--the best course of action is to consult your AME.  Most conditions not part of the "Big 15" listed above generally do not require grounding, though some may still require a Special Issuance for your next medical.

The Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners site is also a great reference.
[/list]

[Mustang]

Another important subject is knowing which over-the-counter medications are acceptable for use while flying. While many of these remedies can be very useful--nasal decongestants, for example--some seemingly benign medications such Benadryl are a no-go. (Yet certain other allergy medications like Claritin are ok...go figure!) 

Unfortunately, the FAA does not publish a comprehensive listing of which medications are acceptable and which are not. There are a few websites with such listings but this is another situation where the best course of action is a quick call to your AME.

[Spaceman3750]

I'm not a pilot, but the following just popped into my head: "am I in a state that would be considered OK during a mishap investigation?" I think of safety in general like that sometimes. "Am I doing something that I would feel confident in justifying to a mishap investigator?"

It's kind of a crap way to look at it but it works.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eclipse]

Considering nothing in CAP is that critical, including SAR, because we're never in the golden hour anyway,
I'd say 80% of the answer is that you are asking yourself the question to begin with.

Most incidents are a confluence of factors, and if you find yourself asking, "Hm...is this over the line?", you're probably already close.

The problem isn't necessarily the "thing" you're asking about, it's whether "thing 1" will degrade your abilities "just enough"
that when "thing 2" pops up you are now over your skis.

As is said in the riding community, "...you don't need to wear a helmet the days you are certain you won't crash...".