Military Awards on the Corporate Uniform

[NC Wing Range Master]

With more Veterans joining CAP, the rule that prohibits wearing of US Military Ribbons, Special Skill Badges and Combat Awards on the White Aviator shirt needs to be changed.  Most would not wear everything, as it is a real pain to get vanguard to do a combined Military/CAP ribbon rack, but to allow the wear of a miniature set of jump wings or a miniature Combat Infantry Badge would be appreciated by those of us that have earned the right to wear them. 

[Fubar]

I was unaware that we have more veterans joining now than what we've seen previously. Interesting.

I think it would be more uniform to only allow CAP awards on CAP uniforms, both the USAF-style and corporate variations. It would reduce the drama about what awards from other branches are allowed, such as the arguments here about SDF awards, civilians earning awards working for the DOD, and even the recent badge vs patch dust-up.

You definitely earned the right to wear them on your military uniform, but I don't think anybody would suggest that right extends to any uniform you wear for the rest of your life.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If you want to fight that battle, go ahead...but it's one that's been fought all during the time I was in CAP (1993-2015, with a couple of breaks in service).

The AF says no, CAP says no.

Even during the brief time CAP had an attractive, military-style alternate uniform (the Corporate Service Uniform)...no military awards.

You can wear them on VFW/Legion wear and in certain cases on civilian attire...but not on CAP "alternative" uniforms.

You couldn't even wear CAP badges on the white shirt until 1995, except for the blazer-type nameplate, nor could you wear shoulder rank.

[NC Wing Range Master]

I am Retired from the Army so I wear my Army Dress Blues to most military-style functions.  they were expensive and quite honestly look way better than the Air Force Dress Jacket which reminds me of an Airline Pilot's uniform.  I also understand that there are SDF (State Defense Forces) ribbons and State Guard awards ad-nauseum.  Bang-Got Me.  I WOULD NEVER rank a SDF Award in any way EVER as equal to Combat awards.  I was saying Awards and decorations awarded by the US Military, not even badges that do not cross over from service to service, or the foreign badges that we wear.  I would not presume to say I should be able to wear a CIB on every uniform I ever put on in the future, but we are in the total force of the Air Force.

[lordmonar]

I understand your sentiment.....but it is not a CAP call....but a USAF call.

No military badges, insignia or ribbons on the corporate uniforms.

You are, of course, free to make the proposal to the NUC via command channels as per CAPM 39-1.   But don't hold your breath.

[Shuman 14]

Some times the logic of this escapes me.

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

To my knowledge, the USAF never had any prohibitions which prevented the wearing of any other Services ribbons/medals on their uniform.

The only prohibition now is no State NG/SDF awards and/or badges on the USAF uniform if in a Title 10 Status... otherwise per your assigned State's AFNG and/or SDF-Airwing regulations.

So why the USAF prohibits their wear on their own Auxiliary's uniform is... ? 

[abdsp51]

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

Cite, because that is so not the case.  Yet again you talk about things you know little to nothing about.

[Storm Chaser]

As a fellow service member, I don't see the need to wear military awards on the CAP corporate uniforms. Frankly, I don't see the need to wear them in the AF-style uniform either. In my very personal opinion, the awards we've earned in the military, while important, have no relevance to what we do in CAP.

[EMT-83]

As a fellow service member, I don't see the need to wear military awards on the CAP corporate uniforms. Frankly, I don't see the need to wear them in the AF-style uniform either. In my very personal opinion, the awards we've earned in the military, while important, have no relevance to what we do in CAP.

About the same as Boy Scout merit badges.

[baronet68]

I am Retired from the Army so I wear my Army Dress Blues to most military-style functions.  they were expensive and quite honestly look way better than the Air Force Dress Jacket which reminds me of an Airline Pilot's uniform...

Do you wear your Army uniform to CAP functions?

[NC Wing Range Master]

Only if it is a Dining Out or Similar Formal event, when the guest speaker is also in the Army.  I wear a CAP uniform to CAP events.  I represent the organization that I am serving, and quite proudly so.

[Fubar]

Only if it is a Dining Out or Similar Formal event, when the guest speaker is also in the Army.  I wear a CAP uniform to CAP events.  I represent the organization that I am serving, and quite proudly so.

You might want to update your photo on your squadron's website then. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm betting you didn't have a CAP uniform photo yet and needed something posted.

[raivo]

As a fellow service member, I don't see the need to wear military awards on the CAP corporate uniforms. Frankly, I don't see the need to wear them in the AF-style uniform either. In my very personal opinion, the awards we've earned in the military, while important, have no relevance to what we do in CAP.

Agreed. Although I do sport my "pocket rocket" on my BDUs, that one is special to me.

[Stonewall]

Im proud of my military service, 22 years total, but choose to wear CAP awards over my military ones.

I have worn a military badge on occasion, and have one sewn to my BDUs, but I really could care less.  If there were a rule stating no military badges/awards, I wouldn't bat an eye.

[NC Wing Range Master]

My Master Jump Wings are the special ones for me.  The Combat Infantry badge ain't bad either but the Master Blaster wings....those took some work.

[Fubar]

My Master Jump Wings are the special ones for me.  The Combat Infantry badge ain't bad either but the Master Blaster wings....those took some work.

Keep wearing them on your Army uniform for sure, there's just no more a reason to wear them on a CAP uniform as there is a Burger King uniform.

[Pylon]

My Master Jump Wings are the special ones for me.  The Combat Infantry badge ain't bad either but the Master Blaster wings....those took some work.

Keep wearing them on your Army uniform for sure, there's just no more a reason to wear them on a CAP uniform as there is a Burger King uniform.

There are some legitimate reasons for wearing them on CAP uniforms. One of them for sure is some additional credibility when dealing with military personnel in a CAP capacity. Whether it should be the way it works or not, the reality is that if I see a CAP member or fellow military member with certain awards, my initial impression of them changes.

[THRAWN]

My Master Jump Wings are the special ones for me.  The Combat Infantry badge ain't bad either but the Master Blaster wings....those took some work.

Keep wearing them on your Army uniform for sure, there's just no more a reason to wear them on a CAP uniform as there is a Burger King uniform.

There are some legitimate reasons for wearing them on CAP uniforms. One of them for sure is some additional credibility when dealing with military personnel in a CAP capacity. Whether it should be the way it works or not, the reality is that if I see a CAP member or fellow military member with certain awards, my initial impression of them changes.

It works the other way as well. If I see a guy with a big stack wearing silver bottlecaps and his only CAP award is the Membership ribbon, is he really competent in all things CAP?

I commanded a squadron on an Air Force base. I was treated well and it wasn't because of the stuff I wore on my shirt, it was because of the way I and my command behaved. We acted like professionals and were treated as such.

It's a CAP uniform. Wear CAP stuff on it.

[LSThiker]

There are some legitimate reasons for wearing them on CAP uniforms. One of them for sure is some additional credibility when dealing with military personnel in a CAP capacity. Whether it should be the way it works or not, the reality is that if I see a CAP member or fellow military member with certain awards, my initial impression of them changes.

I have heard that plenty of times but I am not sure I fully agree.  Sure, the ribbons on the shirt may immediately garner some respect, but after that initial look, it may play out differently.  Wearing a uniform properly and not like a bag of garbage that is 2x too small sure helps.  Also, a person that understands the talk and system without sounding like an idiot sure helps.  I have met plenty of former-military CAP Senior Members that once they open their mouths, I regret having initially talked with them.  Especially the "well back in my day" and "well this one time.." and 2 hours later of tangent story telling kind of CAP senior members.  Nevertheless, I have met previous SNCOs and Senior Officers that still think their former military rank has some pull at the local base or armory.  Those types also do not help CAP.   

[TheSkyHornet]

There are some legitimate reasons for wearing them on CAP uniforms. One of them for sure is some additional credibility when dealing with military personnel in a CAP capacity. Whether it should be the way it works or not, the reality is that if I see a CAP member or fellow military member with certain awards, my initial impression of them changes.

I have heard that plenty of times but I am not sure I fully agree.  Sure, the ribbons on the shirt may immediately garner some respect, but after that initial look, it may play out differently.  Wearing a uniform properly and not like a bag of garbage that is 2x too small sure helps.  Also, a person that understands the talk and system without sounding like an idiot sure helps.  I have met plenty of former-military CAP Senior Members that once they open their mouths, I regret having initially talked with them.  Especially the "well back in my day" and "well this one time.." and 2 hours later of tangent story telling kind of CAP senior members.  Nevertheless, I have met previous SNCOs and Senior Officers that still think their former military rank has some pull at the local base or armory.  Those types also do not help CAP.   

Now, I know you and I have had our spats on this subject, but I know exactly what you're getting at. There are a lot of CAP members who are prior service that think they're above people because they're prior service, and they have to go into these awful, long, endless stories about their "war hero" days and you can just pick out the nonsense they spew. Not to mention the senior members who like to talk to cadets like they're babies because they didn't have the military experience yet. It's a huge lack of character. One great thing about CAP is that there are plenty of people who may have had a legitimate physical limitation from serving and this is their alternative. One sad thing about CAP is that I find the older, 50-year-old and upward, members are pretty humble about themselves while the younger crowd think they're real tough hombres and makes the rest of the bunch feel inferior.

There's a big difference between reminiscing and rubbing it in someone's face. I've got my few pals who are prior and we bust each other's chops a bit, but it's never hostile, ever. There's a few of us who has our issues, ranging from medical, to sequestration, to family matters that caused us to get out. It doesn't make for a comfortable, team-like atmosphere when you get Johnny Hotshot acting like he's better than everyone because he was 0313 and CAP can't live up to his standards. Then why stick around?

On that note, I have no objection to military decorations being on the CAP uniform if we want to keep them to the Air Force standard.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

When CAP got the CSU taken away, then-National CC General Courter made it clear that the corporate uniform does not exist to provide a military-styled alternative.  Whether or not those were her words, or her saying what she was told to say by higher authority, I do not know.

[stillamarine]

Meh, when I first came back after my active duty I wore my military awards and my jump wings. Now I don't. I can't think of a reason to wear them. I think it looks funny.

[Shuman 14]

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

Cite, because that is so not the case.  Yet again you talk about things you know little to nothing about.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/01/21/usaf-updates-afi-36-2903-2/

Sister Service Qualification Badges are back! Looking at the AFI, it appears that it’s now game on. Not only are sister service aeronautical badges authorized but also the Army badges previously authorized with the BDU such as Air Assault and Pathfinder. Based on what I saw in the AFI it also looks like badges such as USN warfare pins are now also authorized for wear on the ABU and service dress a similar fashion to a Group 4 badge in the US Army. Additionally, tabs like ‘Ranger’ and ‘Special Forces’ are also once again authorized for wear. However, for some odd reason, the US Army ‘Airborne’ tab is in the AFI and it has never been an individual award but rather a part of a unit’s Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. Although, admittedly, back in the day I saw Airmen assigned to joint units like JCSE wear it stand alone on their sleeve. 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/05/29/air-force-uniform-guidance/26512343/

The uniform guidance from January 2014 allowed airmen to wear sister services' badges and qualification badges, but it did not adequately describe all of the badges that airmen can wear, Ewalt said.

"We opened the aperture to say, 'qualification and miscellaneous badges and patches,'" she said. "It cuts down the questions that we were getting from the field – we think it will, anyway."

While Attachment V of AFI 36-2903 gives examples of the qualification badges that airmen can wear, the list is not inclusive, said Ewalt, who added, "There's no way we can list them all."
 

[abdsp51]

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

Cite, because that is so not the case.  Yet again you talk about things you know little to nothing about.

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/01/21/usaf-updates-afi-36-2903-2/

Sister Service Qualification Badges are back! Looking at the AFI, it appears that it's now game on. Not only are sister service aeronautical badges authorized but also the Army badges previously authorized with the BDU such as Air Assault and Pathfinder. Based on what I saw in the AFI it also looks like badges such as USN warfare pins are now also authorized for wear on the ABU and service dress a similar fashion to a Group 4 badge in the US Army. Additionally, tabs like 'Ranger' and 'Special Forces' are also once again authorized for wear. However, for some odd reason, the US Army 'Airborne' tab is in the AFI and it has never been an individual award but rather a part of a unit's Shoulder Sleeve Insignia. Although, admittedly, back in the day I saw Airmen assigned to joint units like JCSE wear it stand alone on their sleeve. 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/05/29/air-force-uniform-guidance/26512343/

The uniform guidance from January 2014 allowed airmen to wear sister services' badges and qualification badges, but it did not adequately describe all of the badges that airmen can wear, Ewalt said.

"We opened the aperture to say, 'qualification and miscellaneous badges and patches,'" she said. "It cuts down the questions that we were getting from the field – we think it will, anyway."

While Attachment V of AFI 36-2903 gives examples of the qualification badges that airmen can wear, the list is not inclusive, said Ewalt, who added, "There's no way we can list them all."
 

Try again neither of those are a valid or credible source.... Yet again you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Shuman 14]

Air Force Times is not a valid source. 

Ok you got me.

[abdsp51]

Air Force Times is not a valid source. 

Ok you got me.

The Times publucations just like military.com, etc are definitely not valid sources.

[Bobble]

Can you say "Swagger Stick"?  I know Shuman can.  He owns one.

[Shuman 14]

Can you say "Swagger Stick"?  I know Shuman can.  He owns one.

I also have a sabre and an Army Officer's Cloak... your point.

[Shuman 14]

The Times publications just like military.com, etc. are definitely not valid sources.

Why? Because you say it is?

If the information is not factually correct, please post the correct information and source.

[abdsp51]

The Times publications just like military.com, etc. are definitely not valid sources.

Why? Because you say it is?

If the information is not factually correct, please post the correct information and source.

Because it is fact they are not an official source for information much less credible.  Do you believe everything the news tells you?

[Shuman 14]

No, but based on your statement no news source is credible.

I would submit to you that the Air Force Times, is more credible, when it comes to USAF and general Military issues, than the NY Times or the Chicago Tribune.

Again, if you believe the information is not factual, simply cite the correct and factual information from a more credible source.   

[abdsp51]

No, but based on your statement no news source is credible.

I would submit to you that the Air Force Times, is more credible, when it comes to USAF and general Military issues, than the NY Times or the Chicago Tribune.

Again, if you believe the information is not factual, simply cite the correct and factual information from a more credible source.

I don't believe its not factual I know it's not.  And my source is far more credible.

But hey Barney keep believing what you believe...

[Shuman 14]

Great, then post your source and thanks for the not so veiled police insult... very professional.

[Raikkonen]

No, but based on your statement no news source is credible.

I would submit to you that the Air Force Times, is more credible, when it comes to USAF and general Military issues, than the NY Times or the Chicago Tribune.

Again, if you believe the information is not factual, simply cite the correct and factual information from a more credible source.

I don't believe its not factual I know it's not.  And my source is far more credible.

But hey Barney keep believing what you believe...

I agree, Air Force, Army, Marine Times are NOT good sources for anything.  Time and time again I have seen those papers mislead people.  They do report on actual items but a lot of times those items are not approved yet or are still in the refinement process. 

Now, for a valid source that states we can wear sister-service badges on our uniform in the Air Force...  Here's mine:


AFI 36-2903, Chapter 10

"Airmen may wear earned Air Force and other service's qualification
badges on all blue service uniforms (see para 10.5.)."


I'm pretty sure my source is valid.  I'm prior Air Force then Army and now back in the Air Force.  I wear Army awards and decorations on my Air Force service dress.  Right there in the regs, plain as day, it's authorized.

 

[G+10]

Only if it is a Dining Out or Similar Formal event, when the guest speaker is also in the Army.  I wear a CAP uniform to CAP events.  I represent the organization that I am serving, and quite proudly so.

You might want to update your photo on your squadron's website then. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm betting you didn't have a CAP uniform photo yet and needed something posted.

Not to derail the topic but since you mentioned the website I had to take a look!

The website is actually very nice. I do have a question though -  In the NC Summer Encampment 2015 gallery there are cadets with some sort of tab between the CAP tape and their GT badge - what is that?

John

[jeders]

Only if it is a Dining Out or Similar Formal event, when the guest speaker is also in the Army.  I wear a CAP uniform to CAP events.  I represent the organization that I am serving, and quite proudly so.

You might want to update your photo on your squadron's website then. I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm betting you didn't have a CAP uniform photo yet and needed something posted.

Not to derail the topic but since you mentioned the website I had to take a look!

The website is actually very nice. I do have a question though -  In the NC Summer Encampment 2015 gallery there are cadets with some sort of tab between the CAP tape and their GT badge - what is that?

John

Not having looked at the website, my guess would be Hawk Mountain Ranger Tabs, which are currently authorized.

[Spam]

North Carolina has their own ranger program (sorry, no offense intended, I'm sure its a good program, but I only capitalize the word for three types of Ranger:  Army, Texas, and Park).

I've had two cadets who earned NCWG ranger tabs, and allowed them to continue to wear them when they transferred in. Perhaps I should have been more of a Herbert and told them to take them off.

V/R
Spam

[lordmonar]

(sorry, no offense intended, I'm sure its a good program, but I only capitalize the word for three types of Ranger:  Army, Texas, and Park).

So the offense was really intended after all.   

[GroundHawg]

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

Cite, because that is so not the case.  Yet again you talk about things you know little to nothing about.

I served in the Army and then the Air Force. It is the case whether you want to believe it or not. I can now wear a couple of the badges that I was once previously denied. As has been stated, refer to AFI 36-2903 for any questions for your "Cite".

I cant fathom why you would think it is acceptable to talk to anyone this way, let alone an Officer in the US Army. I can assure you that I will raise my children with more respect than you have been raised with.

[abdsp51]

I served in the Army and then the Air Force. It is the case whether you want to believe it or not. I can now wear a couple of the badges that I was once previously denied. As has been stated, refer to AFI 36-2903 for any questions for your "Cite".

I cant fathom why you would think it is acceptable to talk to anyone this way, let alone an Officer in the US Army. I can assure you that I will raise my children with more respect than you have been raised with.

Good for you for serving.  I can assure that 36-2903 does not say every badge... Shuman was challenged to provide a credible source beside The Times publications etc. 

The AFI states qualification badges not every badge.  Shall I provide you with the exact verbage??

[lordmonar]

I served in the Army and then the Air Force. It is the case whether you want to believe it or not. I can now wear a couple of the badges that I was once previously denied. As has been stated, refer to AFI 36-2903 for any questions for your "Cite".

I cant fathom why you would think it is acceptable to talk to anyone this way, let alone an Officer in the US Army. I can assure you that I will raise my children with more respect than you have been raised with.

Good for you for serving.  I can assure that 36-2903 does not say every badge... Shuman was challenged to provide a credible source beside The Times publications etc. 

The AFI states qualification badges not every badge.  Shall I provide you with the exact verbage??

And there's the hair splitting. 

10.1. Badges and Specialty Insignia. A maximum of four earned badges may be worn on all blue service uniforms. Airmen may wear earned Air Force and other service's qualification badges on all blue service uniforms (see para 10.5.). A maximum of two badges are worn on the left side of uniform above ribbons or pocket if ribbons are not worn. Wear only chaplain, aeronautical, space, cyberspace, occupational, and miscellaneous badges in this location. See attachments 3 and 5 for pictures of various badges.

So....now.....what other sort of badges do our sister services wear?  Because according to Wiki.....the army does not have any "qualification" badges.  They got combat and skill badges, marksman badges, identification badges.  They Navy does not have any badges at all!  They got insignia!  The marines only have Marksmanship Badges.

So....for hair splitting purposes....you are absolutely right.  No other sister service badges can be worn on USAF uniforms....because they are not "qualifications badges"

But strange.......that's not what I see every day at the air base.

[abdsp51]

I served in the Army and then the Air Force. It is the case whether you want to believe it or not. I can now wear a couple of the badges that I was once previously denied. As has been stated, refer to AFI 36-2903 for any questions for your "Cite".

I cant fathom why you would think it is acceptable to talk to anyone this way, let alone an Officer in the US Army. I can assure you that I will raise my children with more respect than you have been raised with.

Good for you for serving.  I can assure that 36-2903 does not say every badge... Shuman was challenged to provide a credible source beside The Times publications etc. 

The AFI states qualification badges not every badge.  Shall I provide you with the exact verbage??

And there's the hair splitting. 

10.1. Badges and Specialty Insignia. A maximum of four earned badges may be worn on all blue service uniforms. Airmen may wear earned Air Force and other service's qualification badges on all blue service uniforms (see para 10.5.). A maximum of two badges are worn on the left side of uniform above ribbons or pocket if ribbons are not worn. Wear only chaplain, aeronautical, space, cyberspace, occupational, and miscellaneous badges in this location. See attachments 3 and 5 for pictures of various badges.

So....now.....what other sort of badges do our sister services wear?  Because according to Wiki.....the army does not have any "qualification" badges.  They got combat and skill badges, marksman badges, identification badges.  They Navy does not have any badges at all!  They got insignia!  The marines only have Marksmanship Badges.

So....for hair splitting purposes....you are absolutely right.  No other sister service badges can be worn on USAF uniforms....because they are not "qualifications badges"

But strange.......that's not what I see every day at the air base.

10.5.  Qualification and Miscellaneous Badges and Patches.  Qualification badges are defined as badges earned and permanently awarded that reflect special skills that an Airman has demonstrated proficiency or qualification in that complements their primary mission. Wear of other services' qualification badges, if earned and awarded, is authorized.  Award criteria for other services' qualification badges will be in accordance with awarding Service's directives (Army MilPERCEN; Navy; BUPERS, etc.).  Temporary qualification badges and those not related to an Airman's current primary mission are not authorized for wear on the uniform.  Refer to attachment 5 for a listing of qualification badges and patches authorized (not inclusive).

Straight from the AFI.  No where does it say here or in any other reference every badge. 

[lordmonar]

Okay...you got me. 

But go back and you will that Shuman did not say "every badge".......in fact he said pretty much every badge.

So.....you are arguing to just to be right.  Because......reasons.

Have a nice day. 

[abdsp51]

Okay...you got me. 

But go back and you will that Shuman did not say "every badge".......in fact he said pretty much every badge.

So.....you are arguing to just to be right.  Because......reasons.

Have a nice day. 

Fairly recently the USAF pretty much authorized every single US Military Badge to worn on its uniform.

So pretty much every? I guess I need to have my eyes checked. Then I guess the quote above from his post is a fabrication...

[goblin]

The back and forth on this is hilarious.

[PHall]

Pat, admit it, the cop got you this time and move on.

[NC Wing Range Master]

All this because I like my Jump Wings...Sheesh! 

The one thing that I have noticed...So Far that is about CAP Talk, is that people get really brave and really obnoxious when covered with the anonymity of a computer and the power of a Keyboard.

I have seen some replies on here that questioned other respondents that were insulting degrading and disrespectful.

Some of those were by Cadets, I question what their home squadrons are teaching, some are from Senior Members and to them I say "thanks a pant load Chet"

Some respondents added to the conversation, I appreciate that.  Some of you really need to grow up.   

[THRAWN]

Says the guy with the "thanks a pantload"....

[NC Wing Range Master]

Thrawn, I am glad to see that the irony of sarcasm is not lost on you.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The one thing that I have noticed...So Far that is about CAP Talk, is that people get really brave and really obnoxious when covered with the anonymity of a computer and the power of a Keyboard.

That's almost anywhere on the 'net.

You should see some of the discussion boards like Yahoo!  I've got death threats from there, been called a Communist/Socialist/Maoist/Traitor, had people tell me they just KNOW I could have never served in the military because I don't agree with their political opinions.

I believe that the vast majority of them would never say such things in person where they would be answerable/culpable to the person they are insulting.  I call them "keyboard commandos."

My favourite line of rebuttal is "What you think of me is none of my business" and then I usually block them.

[AlphaSigOU]

Ever since Ma Blue's creation in 1947, the wearing customs of the service/service dress uniform has been very minimal; grade insignia, aeronautical rating, ribbons and the occasional service/duty badge. Unlike the Big Green Machine, who's been bling-happy since Jesus Christ was a PFC.