15 booted from AFA in cheating scandal; 3 resign

Started by FARRIER, May 01, 2007, 07:48:13 PM

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Flying Pig

Wow...and on a test about general knowledge of the Air Force.  Ruin your life over something so simple. 

mikeylikey

:'(

I cry for the airman and NCO's that will have to follow those Cadets that were ONLY given probation.  They have no morals or character.  As far as I am concerned they should have been expelled and forced to repay the costs of their first year.  I am glad to read that there were Cadets expelled and three others resigned.  

They disgraced not only themselves, but their families, communities and the United States Military.  Those Cadets should be prohibited from being employed in any capacity by the United States Government.  They should all receive a dishonorable discharge and have their names printed in every metropolitan newspaper like they used to do for dishonorably discharged Officers.

If I am not mistaken each charge of lying in the course of ones duties to an officer is at the minimum a five year confinement sentence.  I consider each cadet to have lied at least once when they took this test and cheated.  

This only adds to my theory that the Service Academies should close and all officers come from the remaining accessions routes (i.e. ROTC, Direct Commission, OCS...etc)  We (THE TAXPAYERS) WASTED just about $140,000 on each of those Cadets that were expelled or resigned.  That is outrageous.  Whats more outrageous is that the Academies do NOT produce any better officers than any other commissioning program.  It is a scandal and should have changed 30 years ago.

 

What's up monkeys?

LtCol White

Unfortunately, this is very much a fact of life among college students today.
LtCol David P. White CAP   
HQ LAWG

Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska

Diplomacy - The ability to tell someone to "Go to hell" and have them look forward to making the trip.

Fifinella

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 01, 2007, 08:15:09 PM
:'(

I cry for the airman and NCO's that will have to follow those Cadets that were ONLY given probation.  They have no morals or character.  As far as I am concerned they should have been expelled and forced to repay the costs of their first year.  I am glad to read that there were Cadets expelled and three others resigned.  

This only adds to my theory that the Service Academies should close and all officers come from the remaining accessions routes (i.e. ROTC, Direct Commission, OCS...etc)  We (THE TAXPAYERS) WASTED just about $140,000 on each of those Cadets that were expelled or resigned.  That is outrageous.  Whats more outrageous is that the Academies do NOT produce any better officers than any other commissioning program.  It is a scandal and should have changed 30 years ago.

As a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, I could not disagree with you more.

The Honor System at the service academies is intended to teach cadets to conduct themselves honorably.  Some come to the academies with developed values and character, and some do not.  The academies strive to teach all cadets what it means to be an officer of integrity and good moral character.  Part of this process involves punitive measures for honor violations.  Each case is evaluated individually, and it has been proven that sometimes rehabilitation is the best course.  In fact, if a cadet receives honor probation and learns from his/her mistakes, it saves the taxpayers the cost of their education (one of your concerns).  These fourthclass cadets are 17, 18, 19 years old.  They are *learning* to become officers.  They make mistakes.  Actions have consequences.  Sometimes the consequence is expulsion, and sometimes it is rehabilitation.  Why did cadets receive different consequeces?  I don't know.  Presumably some were actively, knowingly violating the Honor Code and encouraging/enabling others to do so, and others were less aware of the inappropriateness of their actions, and did not contribute to the spreading of the violation.  ***I in NO WAY condone any breach of integrity or violation of the Honor code.***  But I understand that sometimes people can learn from their mistakes.  I would rather serve with someone who has had a chance to fail and has learned from his/her mistakes than with someone who has not had that opportunity, and is placed into a situation of life-and-death and fails the integrity test with devastating consequences.

Quote
They disgraced not only themselves, but their families, communities and the United States Military.  Those Cadets should be prohibited from being employed in any capacity by the United States Government.  They should all receive a dishonorable discharge and have their names printed in every metropolitan newspaper like they used to do for dishonorably discharged Officers.

Only when every other citizen who has cheated on taxes, lied on resumes, cheated on an exam, or in any other way been dishonest is also treated in the same manner.

QuoteIf I am not mistaken each charge of lying in the course of ones duties to an officer is at the minimum a five year confinement sentence.  I consider each cadet to have lied at least once when they took this test and cheated.

If lying were the same as cheating, the Honor Code would not say,  "We will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate among us anyone who does."  They cheated.  They were caught.  They will suffer the consequences.  They are not enlisted.  They are not officers.  They are cadets - officer candidates.  They are in training.  These four years are their opportunity to learn, to try things, to make mistakes, to fail in a non-operational environment, where the consequences are less severe than life-or-death.

The beauty of the Honor Code and the Core Values are that they set a standard of performance.  Sometimes people fall short of standards.  That does not necessarily mean the system has failed, the system is corrupt, or the system needs to be changed.  People are not perfect.  People fail.  How we handle those failures demonstrates a great deal about who we are as a military, a society, and a people.

Finally, I think there is great value to be had from the service academies, and I strongly oppose their closing.  I would be happy to discuss my reasons further with you, if you so choose.

Respectfully,

Capt Judy LaValley, CAP
USAFA Class of 1989
USAFA staff, '92-'95
USAF veteran
Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

capchiro

Capt. LaValley,
I wholeheartedly agree with you.  My son graduated in 1991.  His roommate gave his all in 1997, I believe.  I belong to the Association of Graduates because of my son.  My Dad was a retired major, WWII and Korea.  I feel that the caliber of students at USAFA is far and above those on any other college.  I don't believe ROTC and OTS develops the leadership or dedication that the Academy does.  Unless one has been involved in some form with an Academy, they should not criticise the program.  Normal class loads at the Academy are 28 to 35 hours per week, That doesn't include extra activities or time spent studying or attempting to memorise "Contrails" which is a book of Air Force knowledge verbatim.  I salute all Academy students and feel badly for the ones that have failed.  The temptations and trials and tribulations of a bunch of freshman that are displaced from their families and normal support systems and put through the fires of freshman life at the Academy are beyond comprehension and imagination of every day people.  There were actually 18 dispelled from the Academy and they will carry that scar with them forever.  How about that for a consequence?  These were youth in the top 3 percent of our nations youth.  If they could waiver, is there much question that we would be tempted to do the same?
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

mikeylikey

^^  Why then does ROTC produce more officers?  Why then do ROTC grads stay longer in the military than do academy graduates?  I have to disagree that the academies produce more dedicated and leadership minded Officers.  ROTC is developing the ideal citizen-soldier/airman/marine/ that our current military cutlure is based.  Hey the academies were great when the military was not all-volunteer, and West Point was great when there were only 23 other universities in the US in our early history.  The culture has changed and we should stop dumping so much money on a academy cadet.  Scholarship recipients in ROTC do not come close to the amount of money dropped on a Academy Grad. 

Tell me what is the real purpose of having the Academies?  What pre-commissioning classes do they have that are different from what a ROTC cadet takes.  80% of an Academy Cadets time is spent on academics and 20% on military subjects.  The same amount of time an Academy cadet spends on military specific subjects is exactly the same as what an ROTC cadet spends on military subjects. 

I myself went through ROTC, perhaps I am more biased.  But perhaps because my brother went to West Point and my sister went to the AFA I also know what I am talking about. 

When I went to my Officer Basic Course at Ft Sill, I had 12 West Pointers in my class.  Of those, seven recycled because they academically failed the course.  College life is comparatively different than Academy life, and I believe it prepares a junior Officer better. 

I know I can't win this argument because everyone is loyal to where they went to school.  I would support the Academies only if they did not spend so much money on a single cadet.
What's up monkeys?

Fifinella

^^Well, I don't have the stats on comparative retention, and I am insanely busy at the moment.  But after I've had time to do the research, I can respond to your post in an informed manner.

Bottom line: service academy, ROTC, or OTS/OCS, we're all on the same team in the end. :)
Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

Fifinella

Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

Fifinella

Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

SOF Pilot

Folks, I know I am very late to this post.  I actually came across this site and post doing a websearch for another topic.  I've got to say I've come across this discussion and attitude in a small minority of detractors to the academies.  First my background:  I started as a ROTC engineering student on a full ride scholarship to a highly respected engineering school.  I had managed to receive Air Force and Navy full ride scholarship offers but not an academy appointment.  After completing my first year on scholarship I applied and received an appointment to USAFA.  This came after long discussion with my ROTC Det commander who had actually gone 3 years to civilian school before deciding to apply to the academy and start all over again to receive his 4 year degree and commission.  Long story short, I too went to the academy and graduated in 1991 as 1 other blogger notes in this post.  I became a gunship pilot and have pretty much fought continuously in all are nations battles since coming to the SOF world in 1995.

For me ROTC and USAFA were 2 very different experiences.  My ROTC Det was great --approx 125 cadets that I am sure would and did make good 2LTs when they graduated.  For them ROTC was where they needed to be.  For me it most certainly was not the best path.  As a ROTC cadet I would have 'earned' my commission much like those who work a job through college to put themselves through.   An extra effort for sure but a 'second' job in learning about the USAF, drilling once a week and taking one month between sophomore and Junior year to have 'basic' like experience.

USAFA was anything but a second job -- It was what my psych teacher once called a 'significant emotional event'.   It changed who I was and how I would react in difficult situations in ways no other 'free society' institution that I know would ever do.  I honestly don't know if I would have graduated from the 'old school' pilot training if I had stayed in ROTC.  Even if I did, I personally needed the changes USAFA brought to me as a person and as, dare I say it, a leader.  I have faced difficult combat situations and I have had several near death experiences.  I have fought and killed enemies of this nation on a dozen occasions and have defended friendly forces on hundred different missions.  To the best of my self knowledge, I believe I would be dead or at the least, a much less effective leader had I not had the experiences of being a cadet at USAFA.

I have no less respect for my friends who chose to complete their ROTC commissions or others who have traveled the OTS route.

For me, USAFA was apples to oranges from my ROTC experience.

The nation has been well served by the 3 different routes to officer commissions.  The academies have significantly contributed to not just the military but the nations leaders as a whole. 

I've seen a small number of acidic comments from people like mikeylikey.  They carry some deep seated seething hatred of the academy and its graduates.  Whether it was the 1 or 2 fellow officers that were bad eggs they knew that came from there(despite the other 98 USAFA grads that were good and went unrecognized) or perceived favoritism or opportunity they didn't get or in his case, a couple of siblings that went and he didn't, I don't know but the end is the same.  They don't like the fact that other's may have gone a different route that is looked upon, perhaps more favorably, because, I'll be honest, it was the hardest 4 years any 19-23 year old would ever see and it sticks in their craw that someone might have done something that they either wouldn't or couldn't.

There are great officers from all 3 commissioning sources and there are rotten eggs.  I would challenge you to read Mikeylikey and Lavelly's post back to back and tell me which guy(gal) you would rather have leading you in combat.  Cap Lavelly said it better than I ever could, but as a pilot, a dedicated officer and a member of USAFA class of 91, and a former ROTC Puke, I say, keep all 3 commissioning sources and you'll keep getting a good broad based approach to building a strong well round junior officer corps.  (and give me Lavelly as a leader any day!)

ps mikeylikeys numbers he claims for retention etal are FOBAR.  Check out a scientific analysis at http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/ksil509.pdf.  Bottomline -- overtime retention is very similiar

Trung Si Ma

Quote from: SOF Pilot on September 24, 2008, 02:43:53 AM
I would challenge you to read Mikeylikey and Lavelly's post back to back and tell me which guy(gal) you would rather have leading you in combat. 

I'll play.

Background - 20+ years in Army Combat Arms.  ALL of that time either in combat, preparing to go to combat, or recovering from combat. Service in SOF, Ranger, Airborne, Mech Inf, and Light Inf units, as well as a Divisional Cavalry Squadron.  Worked with all four types of commissions: Academy, ROTC, OCS, and direct.

But the argument quoted above is fallacious.  You have to follow the ROTC grad - the academy grad has already quit.

Ruck up Mikey, I'll cross the LD with you.

Freedom isn't free - I paid for it

DNall

The argument in favor of ROTC or OTS/OCS has really nothing to do with the military education/leadership development aspects of the programs. We all concede the academies do a fairly good job with that, though most would argue it's a result of the people in the environment rather than anything taught there. However, academy students are highly isolated from the real world. They have no ability to relate or deal with troops, and they have a lot of immature impulses to work out of their system which they're now doing in an operational environment rather than with a safety net.

I understand and appreciate what the academies are, and it's a really expensive tradition. It seems like we could cut the pay over there and many of the extras & still get the same result.

Fifinella

Quote from: mikeylikey on May 03, 2007, 04:26:21 PM
^^  Why then does ROTC produce more officers?  Why then do ROTC grads stay longer in the military than do academy graduates?  I have to disagree that the academies produce more dedicated and leadership minded Officers.  ROTC is developing the ideal citizen-soldier/airman/marine/ that our current military cutlure is based.  Hey the academies were great when the military was not all-volunteer, and West Point was great when there were only 23 other universities in the US in our early history.  The culture has changed and we should stop dumping so much money on a academy cadet.  Scholarship recipients in ROTC do not come close to the amount of money dropped on a Academy Grad. 

Tell me what is the real purpose of having the Academies?  What pre-commissioning classes do they have that are different from what a ROTC cadet takes.  80% of an Academy Cadets time is spent on academics and 20% on military subjects.  The same amount of time an Academy cadet spends on military specific subjects is exactly the same as what an ROTC cadet spends on military subjects. 

I myself went through ROTC, perhaps I am more biased.  But perhaps because my brother went to West Point and my sister went to the AFA I also know what I am talking about. 

When I went to my Officer Basic Course at Ft Sill, I had 12 West Pointers in my class.  Of those, seven recycled because they academically failed the course.  College life is comparatively different than Academy life, and I believe it prepares a junior Officer better. 

I know I can't win this argument because everyone is loyal to where they went to school.  I would support the Academies only if they did not spend so much money on a single cadet.

Hate to resurrect this thread when MikeyLikey is off-line, but I finally found some data on retention rates: http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/summary.cfm?q=912 and http://kingsofwar.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/the-u-s-army-officer-shortage-and-talent-managment/#comments
QuoteYou are incorrect... about West Point's retention rates being the worst. On the contrary, according to OEMA analysis based on YG96, ROTC 4-year programs have the worst retention rates.

Not trying to start anything.  Just fulfilling my promise to reply when I found data.  :angel:
Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

Cecil DP

One article states that the greatest retention rate is from those commissioned from OCS (Mustangs) and the other doesn't give the retention rates but only discusses incentives to stay on an addition 3 years past the service obligation.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

notaNCO forever

Quote from: Cecil DP on October 26, 2009, 09:03:14 PM
One article states that the greatest retention rate is from those commissioned from OCS (Mustangs) and the other doesn't give the retention rates but only discusses incentives to stay on an addition 3 years past the service obligation.

Not all OCS grads are mustangs.

Cecil DP

Quote from: notaNCO forever on October 26, 2009, 09:07:31 PM
Quote from: Cecil DP on October 26, 2009, 09:03:14 PM
One article states that the greatest retention rate is from those commissioned from OCS (Mustangs) and the other doesn't give the retention rates but only discusses incentives to stay on an addition 3 years past the service obligation.

Not all OCS grads are mustangs.

True, but most are prior service EM and the article citing OCS actually makes that connection.
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

Fifinella

From the full text of the article found at http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/summary.cfm?q=912
QuoteContinuations on active duty past the commissioning obligation are lowest among the junior officers that the U.S. Army invested the most in.  These officers are produced either by the Army's Reserve officer Training Corps (ROTC) 4-year university scholarship program, or through attendance at the United States Military Academy (USMA or West Point).3  Figure 2 shows that 4-year ROTC scholars and West Point graduates continue to 8 years of active Army service at the lowest rates.
Judy LaValley, Maj, CAP
Asst. DCP, LAWG
SWR-LA-001
GRW #2753

N Harmon

I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: N Harmon on October 27, 2009, 07:19:55 PM
I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.

I bet a number of them went through college.

Theoretically the AFA takes the brightest, so I see no reason why they wouldn't go on to continue their education. 

Flying Pig

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 27, 2009, 07:26:56 PM
Quote from: N Harmon on October 27, 2009, 07:19:55 PM
I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.

I bet a number of them went through college.

Theoretically the AFA takes the brightest, so I see no reason why they wouldn't go on to continue their education.

Im glad they are gone.  It saves some enlisted guy the heart ache of serving under a liar and a cheat as a C.O. Who cares what they went on to do with their lives.  They will always have the tag of being booted from the military for being corrupt.  Just like a cop fired for perjury.  Sure, it will disappear into their past as time goes by, but they will always know.

AirAux

Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

Майор Хаткевич

Pretty sure dozens of AFA cadets cheat every year without being caught. Also sure hundreds of ROTC cadets do the same. Still, I'm thinking cheating on a test for most will not mean cheating on administrative duties that leave their unit without body armour or weapons.

Flying Pig

#23
Quote from: AirAux on October 27, 2009, 08:27:29 PM
Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

Yeah, thanks for the lifes lesson.  None of which I need to take from an 18 yr old kid who compromised their morals to pass a test. I can guarantee Ive made harder choices than any academy cadet trying to pass a test, so save your speech. They crumbled when it DIDNT matter.  Do you want to talk about standards?  Come and work where I am where you actually take peoples freedom from them based on your word and what you have written.
Dont feed me some line about high standards until youve walked a mile in my boots.   Try showing up to day 1 of the academy and getting booted for something as simple as having expired tags on your car.  See ya.  There were 2 cadets in my academy class who got booted Day 1 Hour 1.  One had expired tags, the other had no insurance.  Dont even think about on a test.

Dont make excuses for them being the best and brightest because obviously, they werent or they would still be AFA Cadets.  They failed at SCHOOL, myself, along with countless others here have made much harder decisions where it counted.  Sure, they will probably move on, but just like a cop fired for lying, and it happens, your ALWAYS branded a dirty cop.

Compassion?  Really? Thats what we are teaching?  They lied and cheated to get ahead.  DO they need to be beat down? No, but they have a number of years ahead of them to prove themselves differently.  Most of society today would lik to think reputations dont stick, but they do.
Where I come from, lying and cheatin actually lands you in prison, so forgive me for being harsh.

The friend of yours who didnt make it through, is it because he cheated?  If not, I dont think they would appreciate being compared to the magnificant 18.

Spike

^ Right on! 

Shame on those 18.  They wasted OUR tax dollars, and COST 18 other young men and women a first shot at the Academy. 

I don't care where you are or what you do, you do NOT lie, steal or cheat.  That simple. 

I do not like reading peoples excuses for those cheaters and liars.  They did wrong, they pay the price.  No second chance when they swore (SWORE) to uphold those principles. 

These young men and women are not 4 year old children, who are being taught the differences between right and wrong decisions. 

ENOUGH!  Honestly I hope they had to repay for the expense they cost all of us.   

Gunner C

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Heroes are those who have the moral courage to put others above themselves.  Character is what you do when no one is watching.  Those cadets have neither.  It's not something that can be taught, what the academies do is strengthen what is already innate in the cadet.  Those cadets didn't have what it takes.

Now, that isn't the end for those guys.  I have a friend who was kicked out of West Point in a famous cheating scandal.  He spent three years as an enlisted man trying to clear his name, which he did.  He's now a brigadier general leading some of the finest soldiers in the world.  If they didn't do what they were accused of, there are routes to be exonerated.

Cecil DP

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 27, 2009, 07:26:56 PM
Quote from: N Harmon on October 27, 2009, 07:19:55 PM
I wonder what those 18 former cadets are doing today.

I bet a number of them went through college.

Theoretically the AFA takes the brightest, so I see no reason why they wouldn't go on to continue their education. 

Any  University would take a long second look at a transcript which states "Dismissed for Academic Cheating".

One respondent says have pity they're just 18 year old kids. 18 years old makes one an adult and therefore responsible for their actions. While these cadets were safely ensonced at Colorado Springs, men and women of a similar age are serving,  fighting, and dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, and several other hot spots around the world. Would you ask them to accept that explanation when life and death situations are dependent on the veracity of a ones word?
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

Spike

^  :clap: :clap: :clap:

These former Cadets took an oath upon arriving a the Academy.  They were told what not to do (lie, cheat, steal or tolerate the same) and they broke that promise they made.  How can they be trusted ever again for failing something so simple. 

How can we ask a person to follow the orders of Officers that are known liars and cheats? 

Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they? 


Майор Хаткевич

Actually, your reasoning is a Post Hoc fallacy. That's something I learned in high school, and CAP has reinforced the same.

You are reasoning that because they cheated they must not be smart. Or in reverse order:
They aren't smart so they cheated.

You neither take into account the age of the students (and 18 is a young age, even the law agrees on that, somewhat), nor do you take into account the pressures these youth were under.

Does that justify what they did? Absolutely not. But does that mean that they can never be trusted again? No.

I'm sure that the military was a foregone conclusion for them, at least as Officers, but that is not to say that under other circumstances - normal college and ROTC they wouldn't have become excellent officers. The Service academies are not for everyone, and the main mistake these kids did was think that it was for them.

Gunner C

No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Gunner C on October 28, 2009, 03:05:07 PM
No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

Read this again, and better luck next time!

Quote from: Spike on October 28, 2009, 01:48:53 PM
Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they?

BillB

Why was this brought up again, over two years since the event?  And what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: BillB on October 28, 2009, 04:11:58 PM
Why was this brought up again, over two years since the event?  And what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?

A year into the thread someone decided to argue some more about commissioning sources off topic.
A year after that someone finally found supporting evidence for their argument, leading to this revival.

A whole bunch of us read the original topic theme and actually got the topic back on track-ish.

How it applies to the cadet program? How many CAP cadets aspire to become Military (blank)? How many cadets wish to go to a service academy? I know I did on both counts.

This is something in line with the Character Development program, where there is a good example of consequences over cheating.

N Harmon

Quote from: BillB on October 28, 2009, 04:11:58 PMAnd what has it to do with CAP Cadet Programs?

How often is cheating discovered among CAP cadets? How should or are those situations dealt with?
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron

Spike

Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 28, 2009, 03:11:15 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on October 28, 2009, 03:05:07 PM
No, the reasoning is "they are dirtbags, so they cheated." Or you could say "they self-deselected."

Read this again, and better luck next time!

Quote from: Spike on October 28, 2009, 01:48:53 PM
Honestly if they are having to cheat on academic material, then they really are not the best and brightest are they?

They cheated.  PERIOD.  Poor decision on their part.  I am only speculating on what they cheated for.  I made the guess that it was an academic item, as that is what most "students" cheat on.  So, they broke the code, and the oath they swore to.  If they had trouble mastering the material, and felt they needed to cheat...they are now paying the price.  A smart "student" would ask for help, or study more. 

I honestly don't care that this happened at the USAFA.  I do not like cheaters, thieves or liars.  They have nor moral basis and by doing what they did at such a late age (18) means that the flaw is ingrained in their thought process, and will be very difficult to overcome.  Day one at every Academy, some form of "I will not lie, cheat or steal" is drilled into their heads.  By cheating they have shown they will take the easy and less painless route in life every time.  They will make decisions based on how "easy" or simple the outcome will be.  That is the wrong type of mindset for a Commissioned Officer.       

Cecil DP

It;s been over 40 years since I first entered the military, but the first class we hade, on the first day of active duty was the UCMJ, and it was read VERBATIM, and we all had to sign a form that said we knew and understood it. There is no doubt in my mind that this practice is still carried out in all military establishments, including Officer Candidate schools to include the several academies, where the Honor Codes are also given on the first day. These adults knew they were doing wrong, and continued. The fact that they were expelled was a logical and foreseeable result of their actions. The words " We will not Lie, Cheat, or Steal, nor tolerate those who do" doesn't have a maybe or sometimes in it. 
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

STG3, USN

Quote from: Cecil DP on October 28, 2009, 10:52:46 PM
It;s been over 40 years since I first entered the military, but the first class we hade, on the first day of active duty was the UCMJ, and it was read VERBATIM, and we all had to sign a form that said we knew and understood it. There is no doubt in my mind that this practice is still carried out in all military establishments, including Officer Candidate schools to include the several academies, where the Honor Codes are also given on the first day. These adults knew they were doing wrong, and continued. The fact that they were expelled was a logical and foreseeable result of their actions. The words " We will not Lie, Cheat, or Steal, nor tolerate those who do" doesn't have a maybe or sometimes in it. 

Yes this practice is still in place.
Quote from: AirAux on October 27, 2009, 08:27:29 PM
Right, never give an 18 year old kid a second chance for a poor decision..  I am sure glad you never messed up in your life.  The standards at the Academy are ultra high and rightfully so, however, one screw up shouldn't write someone off for life.  These kids are among the best and the pressures are extreme.  Most of us couldn't even make it in, much less make it through.  Show at least a modicum of compassion.  I personally know of a member that didn't make it through and he is one of our best CAP members now.  These kids probably learned from their costly mistake and are probably outstanding citizens, so lighten up.  You know the old adage about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.. Apply it..

I agree.


STG3 Nellenbach, USN

MSgt Van

"...That is the wrong type of mindset for a Commissioned Officer. "
Or a Non-commissioned one, for that matter.

When I was an instructor supervisor back in the old days of ATC, cheating on a test in tech school was a good way to become a civilian pronto.

AlphaSigOU

Quote from: Spike on October 27, 2009, 10:58:25 PM
...Honestly I hope they had to repay for the expense they cost all of us.

If they were four or three-digs (fourth and third classmen) they do not incur recoupment expenses or military service obligations. It's only when they attend the first class of their second class year when they become committed and are liable for recoupment (from day 1 of their Academy career) of academic expenses or enlisted service.
Lt Col Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP
Gill Robb Wilson Award (#2901 - 2011)
Amelia Earhart Award (#1257 - 1982) - C/Major (retired)
Billy Mitchell Award (#2375 - 1981)
Administrative/Personnel/Professional Development Officer
Nellis Composite Squadron (PCR-NV-069)
KJ6GHO - NAR 45040