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Author Topic: Safety Currency is DEAD!  (Read 8297 times)
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2016, 12:52:31 PM »

Okay, Help me out. My SQ commander was told to transfer any member who had not attended meetings and was not "Safety Current"  into "patron Status by the (wing?) I.G. My SQ has a bunch of old guys who have been spindled folded and mutilated ( like me) but since they have not attended SQ safety meetings, they were involuntarily demoted to Patron members to clean up the Inspection report. Is this Kosher? Did the I.G lead my SQ commander down the primrose path?
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Garibaldi
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,327
Unit: SER-GA-045

Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2016, 12:59:26 PM »

Okay, Help me out. My SQ commander was told to transfer any member who had not attended meetings and was not "Safety Current"  into "patron Status by the (wing?) I.G. My SQ has a bunch of old guys who have been spindled folded and mutilated ( like me) but since they have not attended SQ safety meetings, they were involuntarily demoted to Patron members to clean up the Inspection report. Is this Kosher? Did the I.G lead my SQ commander down the primrose path?

It is kosher, and a good practice. Our wing recently went through a purge, moving those who don't attend meetings, are not safety current and/or not have taken the new CPPT program into patron status. Some hollered foul, but complied and became active. Others it didn't affect, they just are spending their money on CAP for whatever reason, and we never hear from them. Having a bunch of non-compliant members looks bad on an inspection. Makes people thing the CC isn't doing his job.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2016, 01:01:25 PM »

Okay, Help me out. My SQ commander was told to transfer any member who had not attended meetings and was not "Safety Current"  into "patron Status by the (wing?) I.G. My SQ has a bunch of old guys who have been spindled folded and mutilated ( like me) but since they have not attended SQ safety meetings, they were involuntarily demoted to Patron members to clean up the Inspection report. Is this Kosher? Did the I.G lead my SQ commander down the primrose path?

It is kosher, and a good practice. Our wing recently went through a purge, moving those who don't attend meetings, are not safety current and/or not have taken the new CPPT program into patron status. Some hollered foul, but complied and became active. Others it didn't affect, they just are spending their money on CAP for whatever reason, and we never hear from them. Having a bunch of non-compliant members looks bad on an inspection. Makes people thing the CC isn't doing his job.


That's just coolaid.


Moving people to Patron because of safety currency is the easy way out, not a good thing.


If you're not safety current...you can't play. If you're not safety current, chances are you're not currently showing up...so mission accomplished.


I don't believe the intent was ever to make safety and patron status linked. Besides...we don't have a patron status for cadets.
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ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2016, 01:16:59 PM »

Hmmmm, I would call that one vote "for" and one "against"...My understanding from the ICL is that Safety Currency is ( as in the title of this thread,) "Dead" Is it only "Mostly dead? Should we go through its pockets and look for spare change? :)
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FW
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Posts: 2,129

« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2016, 01:30:25 PM »

Sq/CC must do what he is ordered to do, however there is no requirement to do so nationwide.  Most non compliant members aren't active in ES, so that isn't a problem.  As I understand things, Non compliant members can still do AE or CP.  They can go to meetings and conferences.  They can even participate on missions, however before they begin the event, it's good practice to get them compliant...
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NIN
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2016, 01:41:04 PM »

Okay, Help me out. My SQ commander was told to transfer any member who had not attended meetings and was not "Safety Current"  into "patron Status by the (wing?) I.G. My SQ has a bunch of old guys who have been spindled folded and mutilated ( like me) but since they have not attended SQ safety meetings, they were involuntarily demoted to Patron members to clean up the Inspection report. Is this Kosher? Did the I.G lead my SQ commander down the primrose path?

It is kosher, and a good practice. Our wing recently went through a purge, moving those who don't attend meetings, are not safety current and/or not have taken the new CPPT program into patron status. Some hollered foul, but complied and became active. Others it didn't affect, they just are spending their money on CAP for whatever reason, and we never hear from them. Having a bunch of non-compliant members looks bad on an inspection. Makes people thing the CC isn't doing his job.

No.

Since April/May-ish, the word has been "Don't do that."  (Note: I haven't really seen that "officially" in writing, but I have seen the email from the region commander that said "Stop doing that.")

I get "not looking bad on an inspection."

But now, you don't get dinged for "100 members, only 72 of whom have had a safety briefing."

No, its "Having an activity? Conduct a brief for the attendees."

This is part of the retention problem we've been experiencing.  Treating members like little chits or numbers, not real people with real situations.

"Yeah, real sorry you're not active, Timmy, but our safety compliance numbers are at risk, so we're gonna make you a patron member."

"Patron?  Pffft, screw that, I'm not even going to bother renewing this next time.  Guess you guys don't really give a crap about me.."

« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 02:22:05 PM by NIN » Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
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ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2016, 01:42:17 PM »

Roger that. Here is my particular situation: I have a terminal disease, acquired in the course and scope of my employment as a Paramilitary Contractor, working for our Uncle Sam during Hurricane Katrina.  Going to meetings could be occasionally possible, but the idea that I would ever be active in my former CAP job as a GTL, or in any job that might have issues with my occasionally vomiting blood, is somewhat laughable. I notified my SQ commander via E-Mail when it became obvious that I would probably not be terribly active, but would continue to pay dues, support CAP, and handle whatever duties I could should I recover or go into remission. This morning I was advised that our Deputy Commander for Seniors had downgraded my membership status to Patron, which I find somewhat insulting, but if kicking all the disabled people off the SQ roster to gundeck the reports is the standard policy, I understand. I don't see how this can be reconciled with our stated and published policies, but maybe that's just me. FYI, if that's the policy, I will have a bunch of 46 Long Uniforms available shortly, from Mess down to BDU's.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2016, 01:44:56 PM »

Roger that. Here is my particular situation: I have a terminal disease, acquired in the course and scope of my employment as a Paramilitary Contractor, working for our Uncle Sam during Hurricane Katrina.  Going to meetings could be occasionally possible, but the idea that I would ever be active in my former CAP job as a GTL, or in any job that might have issues with my occasionally vomiting blood, is somewhat laughable. I notified my SQ commander via E-Mail when it became obvious that I would probably not be terribly active, but would continue to pay dues, support CAP, and handle whatever duties I could should I recover or go into remission. This morning I was advised that our Deputy Commander for Seniors had downgraded my membership status to Patron, which I find somewhat insulting, but if kicking all the disabled people off the SQ roster to gundeck the reports is the standard policy, I understand. I don't see how this can be reconciled with our stated and published policies, but maybe that's just me. FYI, if that's the policy, I will have a bunch of 46 Long Uniforms available shortly, from Mess down to BDU's.


Alternatively,


Policies are policies. You can take an online safety quiz in less time than this thread took.
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ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2016, 02:16:28 PM »

Well, if I had not been involuntarily converted to a Patron member I could, but Patron members don't have access to online Safety tests!
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Garibaldi
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Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2016, 02:27:34 PM »

Well, if I had not been involuntarily converted to a Patron member I could, but Patron members don't have access to online Safety tests!

This is an issue we had. People actually fought back, but still refused to do the bare minimum to remain an "active" member. It was too much of a pain to come to a meeting, talk to the commander, get their CPPT done, get access back, and take a safety module. Too far to walk, I guess. Those are the ones I had no issue saying "buh bye" to. It's the ones who had a legitimate issue that I lost tears over. It's not like we went through and slammed them in the Patron bin all willy-nilly and higgledy-piggledy. We gave them multiple opportunities to fix the situation, and they refused, and when they finally realized we were serious, they pitched a fit. Not really people I want around, anyway.
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2016, 02:45:19 PM »

Well, it looks like a former DC for Seniors was trying to do a purge, and "converted" me to Patron status. ( Not even a Patron Saint!) I have been assured that the correct buttons to be pushed will be, and I will be a regular member once again, THEN I can do Safety ( Joy) quizzes. I am not sure exactly what "Higgledy-Piggeldy" is precisely, but it sounds like that was the methodology employed, or the nearest metric equivalent, and maybe an inspecting I.G giving the SQ Commander a little, slightly outdated, advice on cleaning up the roster. Apparently, there is sort of an epidemic of safety non-compliance for people actively attending, but not spending the required 15 minutes per month listening to power points about running with scissors. Suggestion: Put all safety presentations on YouTube so we can all... enjoy them...
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NIN
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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2016, 04:30:21 PM »

Well, it looks like a former DC for Seniors was trying to do a purge, and "converted" me to Patron status. ( Not even a Patron Saint!) I have been assured that the correct buttons to be pushed will be, and I will be a regular member once again, THEN I can do Safety ( Joy) quizzes. I am not sure exactly what "Higgledy-Piggeldy" is precisely, but it sounds like that was the methodology employed, or the nearest metric equivalent, and maybe an inspecting I.G giving the SQ Commander a little, slightly outdated, advice on cleaning up the roster. Apparently, there is sort of an epidemic of safety non-compliance for people actively attending, but not spending the required 15 minutes per month listening to power points about running with scissors. Suggestion: Put all safety presentations on YouTube so we can all... enjoy them...

Getting the "Winter driving" Safety seminar in Florida, or "Tornados!" in, say, downtown Boston.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2016, 04:38:27 PM »

Ahhhhh, very practical presentations. I would like to congratulate our safety people on drastically reducing the number of severe paper cut injuries sustained by Command-Level staff by computerization of all things CAP. This unfortunately, created an epidemic of Video screen eye strain, repetitive strain injuries, and PTSD with suicidal ideation as related to power point presentations! The horror...the horror...
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,807

« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2016, 04:59:06 PM »

Well, it looks like a former DC for Seniors was trying to do a purge, and "converted" me to Patron status. ( Not even a Patron Saint!) I have been assured that the correct buttons to be pushed will be, and I will be a regular member once again, THEN I can do Safety ( Joy) quizzes. I am not sure exactly what "Higgledy-Piggeldy" is precisely, but it sounds like that was the methodology employed, or the nearest metric equivalent, and maybe an inspecting I.G giving the SQ Commander a little, slightly outdated, advice on cleaning up the roster. Apparently, there is sort of an epidemic of safety non-compliance for people actively attending, but not spending the required 15 minutes per month listening to power points about running with scissors. Suggestion: Put all safety presentations on YouTube so we can all... enjoy them...

Getting the "Winter driving" Safety seminar in Florida, or "Tornados!" in, say, downtown Boston.

Funny you mention both of those examples. After the nightmare of ice in Atlanta and down into the northern part of Florida of last winter, it should be included. The tornado one is funny. We've had a number of them in the Philly area over the past couple of years. It is as common as in OKC? No, but it's still a pretty good chance that there will be at least one per year.
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Strup
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JeffDG
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Posts: 3,157

« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2016, 10:28:26 PM »

Okay, Help me out. My SQ commander was told to transfer any member who had not attended meetings and was not "Safety Current"  into "patron Status by the (wing?) I.G. My SQ has a bunch of old guys who have been spindled folded and mutilated ( like me) but since they have not attended SQ safety meetings, they were involuntarily demoted to Patron members to clean up the Inspection report. Is this Kosher? Did the I.G lead my SQ commander down the primrose path?

A few of points:

1)  The Wing IG cannot direct a commander to the mens/ladies room.
2)  Lack of "Safety currency" is no longer grounds for any finding on an SUI
3)  I know in our wing, commanders have been specifically directed NOT to transfer people to Patron or 000 status for this reason.

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JeffDG
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« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2016, 10:30:47 PM »

Sq/CC must do what he is ordered to do, however there is no requirement to do so nationwide.  Most non compliant members aren't active in ES, so that isn't a problem.  As I understand things, Non compliant members can still do AE or CP.  They can go to meetings and conferences.  They can even participate on missions, however before they begin the event, it's good practice to get them compliant...

There are no more "non-compliant" members.

Units are required to deliver safety education.  Members are no longer required to receive it.
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ALORD
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: PCR-CA-123

« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2016, 11:09:44 AM »

I suspect that the input about safety came from an I.G. Inspecting Officer, not the actual I.G., who I would not expect to see at the Squadron unless the Squadron or a member had committed some heinous act, which admittedly is not out of the question...I believe that a well-meaning, but somewhat behind-the-times Inspector thought the SQ report would look shinier and brighter if all the members (cadet and otherwise)  were "safety current". ( Even Patron's, for whom such a status is impossible) At least, they did not suggest doing non-renewals, keel-hauling, or death by musketry fire, like CAP did in "The Old Days". My Squadron Commander apparently took the advice of the I.G. inspector as Gospel, since presumably inspecting officers in CAWG have god-like knowledge of all aspects of CAPR's. Although I believe my Sq commander will change my status back to real-member, I do not think I have convinced her, based primarily on the ICL ( Isn't that ICL expired anyway?) that Safety Currency is dead....its just a kind of Zombie
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Garibaldi
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Posts: 2,327
Unit: SER-GA-045

Sandy Springs Cadet Squadron
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2016, 11:18:06 AM »

I have to clarify my earlier statement. The "purge" was done with regards to CPPT, not safety. Safety was a totally different issue. People refused to do the simplest of tasks, take an online CPPT module, then have a short convo with the commander, then pitched all manners of fits when they were moved to Patron AFTER REPEATED IGNORED REQUESTS to rectify the situation. Not our choice.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 865

« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2016, 11:22:50 AM »

So, I'm going to be "that guy" and ask a potentially stupid question that's probably already been answered...

Yes or no--- Is there a requirement per National to complete monthly safety education (not perform it, but receive it) in order to continue as an active member?

This topic is floating around at various squadrons in my wing and everyone seems to have a different answer. It was my understanding that safety currency, as it has been put, is "dead," and that we are no longer required to receive a monthly safety lecture; however we are still required to perform it once a month and provide appropriate safety briefings before activities, as applicable/appropriate.

Am I mistaken here?
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2016, 11:28:34 AM »

There's no longer a requirement to be safety "current", but there's still a requirement for units to conduct monthly safety education briefings and for members to participate in approved safety education whether in person or online. Now, a member going past what used to be consider "current" can still participate in activities and missions.

Now, there's another issue related to active participation. Members are required to participate in one way or another to be considered Active members (cf. CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-1.a). While some regions and wings have asked units not to transfer members to Patron status because of safety currency, unit commanders are free to transfer members to Patron status if they're not active members or if they have incomplete training. That said, the unit commander must notify the member of the pending transfer and, if the member objects, he or she has 90 days to complete any missing requirements (cf. CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-1.b(3)(a)).

Furthermore, a member transferred to Patron status can request to be transferred back to Active status at any time using a CAPF 2A (cf. CAPR 39-2, Para. 3-1.b(3)(b)).

Bottom line is, it takes only a few minutes to complete online safety education. But even is a member has completed this monthly requirement, members must participate in some way to be in Active status. If a member has a physical limitation or medical condition preventing them from active participation, I recommend discussing this with their commander. There are many duties that can be done from home and that don't require too much time. That can be a way continue contributing without necessarily participating in all meetings and activities.

(edited for grammar)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:32:44 AM by Storm Chaser » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Safety Currency is DEAD!
 


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