Faith and Science - CAP Chaplain Video

Started by Майор Хаткевич, November 18, 2014, 05:27:09 PM

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Spam

Chaplain Miner, may I strongly second the suggestion that you modify your introductory statement on the Youtube post, as it clearly appears from your replies that COL Hughes' statements were intended as professional development for Chaplain Corps new members. 

It is amply clear to me that the program of record for the Chaplain Corps clearly encompasses professional development ministry from one Christian Chaplain to other Christian Chaplains on specific matters of common faith and conscience, which is what this appears to be now that we understand the context. This is clearly within the lines of CAPR 265-1 Section D Para 16 "Scope", which is worth a couple of moments of time for all of us to review before commenting, whatever our personal beliefs are.

Where there is a massive disconnect is where lay members at large (like me) are failing to understand the context in which the comments were given, particularly with the seal of the Corps on it.  So, since this is Chaplain-to-Chaplain ministry (within scope), and not official proselytization (out of scope), I'd like to suggest something along the lines of:

"These comments were made as part of a professional development seminar for new trainee Civil Air Patrol Chaplains in accordance with initial and continuing education requirements under Section C, CAP Chaplain Corps Training and Structure, CAPR 265-1, of 19 December 2012, and the CAP Pamphlet 221 series (CAP Chaplain Corps development). The comments enclosed were not intended for nor are recommended as topical lectures for CAP Character Development Instruction (CDI) use and do not represent a doctrinal statement nor endorsement by CAP nor the Department of Defense. For unit level Character Development Instruction classes, class materials are available in CAP Pamphlet 265 at the following link:  http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/pamphlets-1702/"

Rationale:
As a cadet programs guy (among other things), I've seen and had to exercise command input to stop occasional (but not common) use of the bully pulpit of CAP officers to advance a specific faith viewpoint to the exclusion of all others, which is pointedly NOT in the program of record, and I've seen CDI volunteers not aware of your existing curriculum grasping at straws for character development material, with sometimes disastrous results. I mention all this - AS RARE EXCEPTIONS - because in almost all cases these were examples of well meaning individuals in need of professional development from your community, and because anyone coming across this video may scratch his chin and use it in ignorance, raising needless controversy.

So, your internal PD is certainly needed!  However, all such training needs to be very clearly labeled as such for the meanest intellect and for the newest member. Otherwise, our well meaning volunteer amateurs (unit CCs and CDIs) may assume that Jaybirds video is meant for consumption by cadets when it pointedly isn't. LST's comments on the appearance of a bully pulpit by Commanders (and CDIs) are on target - echoing a series of articles ten years ago in the Naval Institutes "Proceedings" on the need to avoid confusing ministry to individuals (within CAPR 265 Para 16 Scope) and an appearance of official DoD/CAP endorsement of a specific faith tradition (out of scope).  Absent a clear disclaimer, this ends up being divisive and inappropriate, rather than ministerial and appropriate.

With respect,
Spam


vento

This video misrepresents CAP in epic proportions. It should really be only made available privately within the Chaplain Corps for whatever reason it is cited and removed from the public domain ASAP.

My two cents worth as a Christian and CAP member.

AirAux


SkyChaplain

#23
To All:

Thank you for all the comments on this video.  I've edited the title and the video's information to include the limitations as suggested by Spam.  We have many people of the Christian faith in the CAP who would benefit from this video so we won't hide it under limited release.  However, I hope that the changes make it clear that this is intended for people of faith and not to be used for CDI lessons.  This will be an interfaith series with other perspectives added other than this Christian one which is consistent with the pluralistic and inclusive mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.

My personal observation from working with fellow scientists at the AMS is that we have created a culture of fear around faith and science which leads to not living an "authentic" life for many.  Trying to stovepipe who we are is unhealthy.  Science tells us what is true.  Faith and ethics tell us what is moral.  Our humanity tells us what is beautiful.  We all should live each of these three pillars for ourselves and explore them as fully as we are able. 

Thank you for the chance to chat about this.  I have grown from this exercise.  Please let me invite you to the CAP Chaplain Corps Facebook page where all things originate:  www.facebook.com/CAPChaplains .  Please feel free to comment on anything you see there. 

Respectfully and with blessings,
SkyChaplain Tim

LSThiker

Quote from: SkyChaplain on November 19, 2014, 01:45:31 PM
Science tells us what is true.  Faith and ethics tell us what is moral.  Our humanity tells us what is beautiful.  We all should live each of these three pillars for ourselves and explore them as fully as we are able. 

Faith does not tell us what is moral.  Morality and ethics tell us what is moral.  Faith tells us what to hope, believe, or trust in.  However, that does not mean it is moral.

Flying Pig

Nothing gets a discussion going like God or uniforms

AirAux

I believe Faith and ethics lead us to our moral base.  You can't use the term morality to define moral..  Kind of an endless loop...

LSThiker

#27
Quote from: AirAux on November 19, 2014, 03:51:40 PM
I believe Faith and ethics lead us to our moral base.  You can't use the term morality to define moral..  Kind of an endless loop...

I did not use morality to define morals.  I said, morality gives us morals.  This is not a definition.  A definition of morals would be "a standard or base regarding behavior or belief on what is or is not acceptable" (not the best definition but then again I wrote that in 5 seconds so forgive me on my definition).

Again, faith does not give any moral base.  People had faith in Hitler, but that does not mean Hitler was moral or ethical (Godwin's Law :)  ).  People had faith in Bush's intelligence for Iraq WMDs.  And just to be politically fair, some people have faith in Obama's ACA.  I can have faith in an immoral leader, but that still does not make my faith moral. 

Faith is defined as what to believe or trust.  Even Hebrews 11:1-3 says this:  "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  For by it the elders obtained a good report.  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear". 

LSThiker

For posterity's sake, science also does not disprove hypotheses.  I used the wrong word as pointed out by a fellow scientist at work.  Science rejects or fails to reject a hypothesis (null hypothesis).  I apologize for my error. 

LSThiker

Quote from: Flying Pig on November 19, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Nothing gets a discussion going like God or uniforms

Just trying to liven up the place :)

Now, how can I meld these two?  .........


Garibaldi

Quote from: LSThiker on November 19, 2014, 04:52:17 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on November 19, 2014, 03:42:20 PM
Nothing gets a discussion going like God or uniforms

Just trying to liven up the place :)

Now, how can I meld these two?  .........

God has mandated that CAP wear the G/W in perpetuity. No more AF uniforms allowed.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: ZigZag911 on November 19, 2014, 05:06:10 AM
Quote from: SkyChaplain on November 19, 2014, 03:08:54 AM
Hi everyone,

I am Ch Tim Miner, the person responsible for the video you are discussing. Let's chat.

It is important to note that this video was created to speak to seniors and, most importantly, to the chaplains in CAP.

May I suggest, Chaplain, that it might be a good idea to add that to the introduction to the video?  Perhaps also a written note stating this fact, and advising CAP commanders & chaplains that this is not intended for use as a character development presentation to cadets?


QuoteStreamed live on Nov 10, 2014
Chaplain, Colonel James "Jay" Hughes, CAP, Chief of the Chaplain Corps for the Civil Air Patrol talks about how there is no conflict for Christians between science and the Bible.  This is the first in a series of interfaith discussions which will serve as a launching pad for people of all faiths to reconcile science in their lives. Chaplain Hughes speaks from his perspective as a Christian chaplain. This series will hopefully empower other chaplains to embrace the Aerospace Education mission, and in turn, educate their communities. There will be many future talks added regularly from other perspectives in keeping with the pluralistic and inclusive mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps consistent with the intended uses noted below.

"These comments were made as part of a professional development seminar for all Civil Air Patrol Chaplains in accordance with initial and continuing education requirements under Section C, CAP Chaplain Corps Training and Structure, CAPR 265-1, of 19 December 2012, and the CAP Pamphlet 221 series (CAP Chaplain Corps development). The comments enclosed were not intended for nor are recommended as topical lectures for CAP Character Development Instruction (CDI) use and do not represent a doctrinal statement nor endorsement by CAP nor the Department of Defense. For unit level Character Development Instruction classes, class materials are available in CAP Pamphlet 265 at the following link: http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publi...

Ch Hughes bases his comments on Hebrews 11:1-3.

King James Version (KJV):  11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.


This has been changed, which is great. But I still don't see the issue with "Aerospace" and "Faith". Why can't we just let people have faith that the airplane will (or will not) fly? If someone is going to use their faith to deny gravity, lift, thrust, FAA or cash, that's on them. Of course the old version had just the religious quote, but it talked about teaching cadets AE...

Майор Хаткевич


Quote from: vento on November 19, 2014, 07:38:31 AMThis video misrepresents CAP in epic proportions. It should really be only made available privately within the Chaplain Corps for whatever reason it is cited and removed from the public domain ASAP. My two cents worth as a Christian and CAP member.



Completely agree.


Quote from: SkyChaplain on November 19, 2014, 03:08:54 AMIt is important to note that this video was created to speak to seniors and, most importantly, to the chaplains in CAP.


Quote from: SkyChaplain on November 19, 2014, 03:08:54 AMI've got quite a few chaplains who are afraid of science.
Quote from: SkyChaplain on November 19, 2014, 01:45:31 PM
We have many people of the Christian faith in the CAP who would benefit from this video so we won't hide it under limited release.  However, I hope that the changes make it clear that this is intended for people of faith and not to be used for CDI lessons.  This will be an interfaith series with other perspectives added other than this Christian one which is consistent with the pluralistic and inclusive mission of the CAP Chaplain Corps.






So when I see this posted to a Squadron page by a Chaplain, I suppose it's ok?

This is either for chaplains, or meant to be wide spread. One is ok, the other is not. This comes off completely wrong. We're not teaching cadets biology. We're not teaching them geology. We're not teaching them astrophysics. We're literally teaching them stuff they can observe themselves (and anyone of doubt). Either the plane flies because there's an engine making wind under wings pushing it forward and through the fluid of the molecules and atoms in the "air", or planes fly because your chosen deity makes it so. I don't care. Believe what you will, but don't try to tie in science with faith as being equal. There are already thousands of creationist websites doing that - CAP need not do so.

How would the Chaplain Corps feel if I started mixing in my Atheist beliefs into my Aerospace lessons? Can I demand to do a Humanist opening "prayer"? I've got to listen to a "God of All Nations" prayer during every opening formation. I've got to recite "Under God" in a Pledge to a country that supposedly gives me the freedom to choose whether I want to believe in a God, many gods, or no gods. Should I start objecting to the Chaplain doing his thing with the prayer? Bring in some science into his faith message? After all, we need some faith in our science, right?

It's a slippery slope. Most people in CAP don't know my (lack of) faith, and I don't know theirs. Because it doesn't matter. I'm in CAP to work with cadets and do ES. I'm not there to get an extra Hail Mary or a discussion on how faith is ok with me understanding the dynamics of flight.


LSThiker

Quote from: Garibaldi on November 19, 2014, 05:04:35 PM
God has mandated that CAP wear the G/W in perpetuity. No more AF uniforms allowed.

Except by chaplains that participate in the military support program.  They are only allowed to wear the USAF style uniform and must meet USAF-style standards.  :)

THRAWN

Quote from: LSThiker on November 19, 2014, 04:47:35 PM
Quote from: AirAux on November 19, 2014, 03:51:40 PM
I believe Faith and ethics lead us to our moral base.  You can't use the term morality to define moral..  Kind of an endless loop...

I can have faith in an immoral leader, but that still does not make my faith moral. 


Sure it does. Your morality is based on your environment and perspective. Is a North Korean politician less moral than one from New York? Ask Anakin, it's all about perspective....
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

ReCAP

#35
Chaplain,

Let me take a guess that what this all boils down to is as follows:
A literal interpretation of the book of Genesis is not compatible with the current mainstream scientific understanding of the history of the of the universe. 

Certain chaplains are conflicted because they think aerospace education may include the study of outer space which may include information that may contradict a literal interpretation of Genesis. 

Am I correct? 

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: THRAWN on November 19, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on November 19, 2014, 04:47:35 PM
Quote from: AirAux on November 19, 2014, 03:51:40 PM
I believe Faith and ethics lead us to our moral base.  You can't use the term morality to define moral..  Kind of an endless loop...

I can have faith in an immoral leader, but that still does not make my faith moral. 


Sure it does. Your morality is based on your environment and perspective. Is a North Korean politician less moral than one from New York? Ask Anakin, it's all about perspective....


Agreed. But I would much rather everyone follow the universal "morals". I call them laws.


I'm expected to do what you do, or not to do what you don't do.

THRAWN

Quote from: Capt Hatkevich on November 19, 2014, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on November 19, 2014, 05:42:01 PM
Quote from: LSThiker on November 19, 2014, 04:47:35 PM
Quote from: AirAux on November 19, 2014, 03:51:40 PM
I believe Faith and ethics lead us to our moral base.  You can't use the term morality to define moral..  Kind of an endless loop...

I can have faith in an immoral leader, but that still does not make my faith moral. 


Sure it does. Your morality is based on your environment and perspective. Is a North Korean politician less moral than one from New York? Ask Anakin, it's all about perspective....


Agreed. But I would much rather everyone follow the universal "morals". I call them laws.


I'm expected to do what you do, or not to do what you don't do.

But are all laws moral? There are some places that have laws against corporal punishment. Does that make me immoral because I think that it's okay to spank an unruly child? Your "universal" morals are nothing of the sort. They may have some common threads, in this country, but are by no means universal.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

lordmonar

And remember there are no absolutes in morality.

What is moral in one situation may be morally required in another.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

THRAWN

Quote from: lordmonar on November 19, 2014, 06:01:14 PM
And remember there are no absolutes in morality.

What is moral in one situation may be morally required in another.

Bingo. Wait, gambling is immoral...    :)
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023