Special Appointments for Advanced Grade Question.

[brackins23]

Are the special appointments for advanced grade still allowed? I have read and showed the CC this section of CAPR 35-5. I am a new member and just completed level one, a retired E-7 Flight Engineer, I also have a B.S. Aviation Degree. I am told that this is not applicable and I must wait 6 months, but the regulation was updated in January 2014. Am I missing something?

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

NCO Grade CAP Grade Authorized
E-7 Second Lieutenant
E-8 First Lieutenant
E-9 Captain

[arajca]

The key words here are "at the discretion fot he promotion authority". It is not uncommon to have folks seeking advanced grade demonstrate their willingness to put their skills to use to benefit CAP. 6 months is a common 'trial' period.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

The key words here are "at the discretion fot he promotion authority". It is not uncommon to have folks seeking advanced grade demonstrate their willingness to put their skills to use to benefit CAP. 6 months is a common 'trial' period.

So he should wait 6 months for promotion to 2nd Lt based on his E-7 grade. That's the TIG for 2nd Lt for duty promotion. Kind of makes the advanced option seem silly.

[CAPAPRN]

If the squadron CC is going to wait 6 months you should just do a duty promotion as a special promotion will just slow things down. A duty promotion to 2LT should just be a local approval, where as a special promotion is not.

[Panache]

I know several CCs who are hesitant to put in the paperwork for an advanced promotion until they get a handle on the person.  They don't want to be the once responsible for getting somebody fast-promoted to X if the person turns out to be a liability.

In my experience, those CCs usually wait about six months or so.

[Ed Bos]

Are the special appointments for advanced grade still allowed? I have read and showed the CC this section of CAPR 35-5. I am a new member and just completed level one, a retired E-7 Flight Engineer, I also have a B.S. Aviation Degree. I am told that this is not applicable and I must wait 6 months, but the regulation was updated in January 2014. Am I missing something?

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

NCO Grade CAP Grade Authorized
E-7 Second Lieutenant
E-8 First Lieutenant
E-9 Captain

Welcome to CAP. In my unit I would follow the regulation as written and promote immediately, since it doesn't have a significant impact on my payroll or benefits budget. 

While some folks put new Senior Members on "probation," I find that the contribution of a 2d Lt with 3 months in CAP is almost-universally equivalent to Senior Members without grade that have been in CAP for 3 months. This is, of course, under the working assumption that it's the same person in either case, and they would need the same on-the-job training no matter what grade they wore.

TL/DR: Thanks for your service, welcome to the club, and try not the let the weenies get you down.

[Flying Pig]

I never had an issue with giving someone the advanced promotions they rate.  I could advance promote you to Lt Col..... if you are a goof ball I can start the process to boot you just like I could if you were a 2Lt.  If I can toss you a bone to motivate you a little in the beginning, fine.    I just make it very clear how rank works in CAP.  Ive had a number of new members who were LTCs immediately because of military service.  Just make sure they understand the program.    If a guy comes in as an E7, make sure he understands CAP as an organization and get him going. 

brackins23... that being said, your particular Sq Commander may run his unit differently.  If he does choose to wait... just hang out and enjoy the program.  The bars or leaves on your collar are really irrelevant to what you can or cant do in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I can think of two diametrically-opposed situations on advanced grade.

My first squadron took on a new member who was a pilot (instructor, I think), and had a mega-brainiac degree in Aeronautical Engineering from Embry-Riddle University.

He insisted on coming up through the ranks, and I think he was a better officer (and person) for it.

The other one (different unit) got Captain (and very greased-wheels promotion to Major) just for being a CPA.  He knew naught about CAP, the Air Force or really aviation (he rarely even bothered to wear the golf shirt uniform and did not know shineola about C&C's or even our grade structure), but he was a whiz of a number-cruncher so he made a lot of friends at Wing real fast.

The first guy I liked a lot.  The second...well...

[LSThiker]

Promotions are at the discretion of the commander.  The best is to talk with about it.  Ultimately, it is his decision even if it sucks for you.

With that being said, I could see the waiting 6 months for something like major or captain, but 2d Lt is hardly worth the effort.

[Private Investigator]

Are the special appointments for advanced grade still allowed? I have read and showed the CC this section of CAPR 35-5. I am a new member and just completed level one, a retired E-7 Flight Engineer, I also have a B.S. Aviation Degree. I am told that this is not applicable and I must wait 6 months, but the regulation was updated in January 2014. Am I missing something?

3-5. Regular and Reserve Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces. Regular, Reserve and National Guard Senior Noncommissioned Officers of the Armed Forces or Coast Guard of the United States, active or retired, in the grade of E-7 through E-9 may be advanced to the CAP grade shown in Figure 4 below in recognition of their military knowledge and experience. Such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority outlined in paragraph 1-5. Members qualifying for this type of promotion must meet the minimum eligibility criteria outlined in paragraph 3-1. NOTE: The unit commander will initiate initial promotion to officer grade based on prior military service only where proper documentation for that grade exists (a copy of DD Form 214, appropriate National Guard form, military identification card or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient).

NCO Grade CAP Grade Authorized
E-7 Second Lieutenant
E-8 First Lieutenant
E-9 Captain

Welcome to CAP. In my unit I would follow the regulation as written and promote immediately, since it doesn't have a significant impact on my payroll or benefits budget. 

While some folks put new Senior Members on "probation," I find that the contribution of a 2d Lt with 3 months in CAP is almost-universally equivalent to Senior Members without grade that have been in CAP for 3 months. This is, of course, under the working assumption that it's the same person in either case, and they would need the same on-the-job training no matter what grade they wore.

TL/DR: Thanks for your service, welcome to the club, and try not the let the weenies get you down.

+1 have fun  :clap:

[Private Investigator]

Promotions are at the discretion of the commander.  The best is to talk with about it.  Ultimately, it is his decision even if it sucks for you.

With that being said, I could see the waiting 6 months for something like major or captain, but 2d Lt is hardly worth the effort.

Some Commanders are sily and immature, JMHO. When I was an IG I visited a Squadron that just got in a sharp college professor as their AE. He rated Captain BUT the Commander did not want to promote anyone to his grade of Captain because new guys might pass him up eventually. 

[LSThiker]

Some Commanders are sily and immature, JMHO. When I was an IG I visited a Squadron that just got in a sharp college professor as their AE. He rated Captain BUT the Commander did not want to promote anyone to his grade of Captain because new guys might pass him up eventually. 

That there are.  But really no different than the military or the corporate world unfortunately.

[Eclipse]

Some Commanders are sily and immature, JMHO. When I was an IG I visited a Squadron that just got in a sharp college professor as their AE. He rated Captain BUT the Commander did not want to promote anyone to his grade of Captain because new guys might pass him up eventually. 

Agreed, >this< and similar examples are silly and immature, and I've seen similar behavior.

However, with that said, I have personally never met anyone (who wasn't prior CAP) who was much use or value within the first six months of membership to
the point that the would be deserving of advanced grade, regardless of military, pilot, teacher, whatever.  The same holds true for most
new employees in a corporate setting as well.

CAP is a complex beast - not "hard", just a lot of moving pieces, by the time you get all your pre-reqs done, get into various
systems, and have even 1/2 a clue, it's 2-3 months unless you are a high-speed exception.  Rare is the pilot that F5's in less then 6 months,
or that is able to actually contribute much mission or O-ride wise in less then a year.

6 months is a good minimum time to see if a person is going to stick around and engage at a level approaching value.

For those who want to say it's "meaningless", that's fine, tracer's go both ways.

[MSG Mac]

The SCAG is considering eliminating the NCO advanced promotions. So better to take advantage of the opportunity now, rather than later.

[Майор Хаткевич]

E7 is 2d Lt. Not much advance...

[MSG Mac]

E7 is 2d Lt. Not much advance...

Still the appointment is to recognize RM  military leadership. While the MSG needs to complete Level I, he should be submitted as soon as he does.

[Eclipse]

How is that relevant to CAP,  especially at that level, and in the first 6 months of membership?

Aren't promotions supposed to be acceptance of additional responsibility, not reward for past work?

[DoubleSecret]

Promotions are at the discretion of the commander.  The best is to talk with about it.  Ultimately, it is his decision even if it sucks for you.

That works both ways.  Commanders who intend to play the delay game need to let people know this before they let them sign up.  It's a breach of integrity not to.  I've seen units do the "you're eligible for this and this" and then when they're on the books ... "discretion" becomes the watchword.  They could have used their discretion to be honest with the military member/retiree/veteran and said "I don't support advanced promotions even if you're eligible for them, so I'm going to use my discretion.  Still want to join?"

There's an integrity issue there.  There's also a moral obligation not to abuse discretion. 

It's a disservice to CAP to pad unit numbers and then shaft the person and potentially lose someone who feels they're being treated unfairly.  If people walk away with a poor experience, they're certainly not going to tell the CAP story we want them to tell. 

Sure, the apologists can scream "service before self," but integrity comes first.

Or does it?

[lordmonar]

How is that relevant to CAP,  especially at that level, and in the first 6 months of membership?

Aren't promotions supposed to be acceptance of additional responsibility, not reward for past work?

If that were true......then there would be a whole lot more advanced promotions during initial membership and a whole lot less Lt Cols after 10 years or service.

[Eclipse]

How is that relevant to CAP,  especially at that level, and in the first 6 months of membership?

Aren't promotions supposed to be acceptance of additional responsibility, not reward for past work?

If that were true......then there would be a whole lot more advanced promotions during initial membership and a whole lot less Lt Cols after 10 years or service.

Well, that's certainly the rhetoric, anyway.  One can always hope.

[LSThiker]

That works both ways.  Commanders who intend to play the delay game need to let people know this before they let them sign up.  It's a breach of integrity not to.  I've seen units do the "you're eligible for this and this" and then when they're on the books ... "discretion" becomes the watchword.  They could have used their discretion to be honest with the military member/retiree/veteran and said "I don't support advanced promotions even if you're eligible for them, so I'm going to use my discretion.  Still want to join?"

There's an integrity issue there.  There's also a moral obligation not to abuse discretion. 

It's a disservice to CAP to pad unit numbers and then shaft the person and potentially lose someone who feels they're being treated unfairly.  If people walk away with a poor experience, they're certainly not going to tell the CAP story we want them to tell. 

Sure, the apologists can scream "service before self," but integrity comes first.

Or does it?

Okay?  Not exactly sure how you got from my statement into an integrity issue since I did not say anything to the contrary.  Either way, that does not negate the fact that promotions are still at the discretion of the commander.

[Eclipse]

Any CC who is recruiting people based on giving them grade before they have earned it in CAP should be excused from the room.

This issue is one of the reasons we have so many empty shirts, members who treat the mission like a menu, and
lifer Captains.

[lordmonar]

Any CC who is recruiting people based on giving them grade before they have earned it in CAP should be excused from the room.

This issue is one of the reasons we have so many empty shirts, members who treat the mission like a menu, and
lifer Captains.

It is this attitude why we get people who quit in a huff!   "What have you done for me lately?"  "I Don't know...let's see I've been with the program for 5-6 years now....I've jumped through a bunch of hoops...done my time in the trenches....now I would like to just take a step back and enjoy myself.   I'll be there for you when you need me...I'll keep my ES proficiencies up....but I'm not going to spend any more of my leave time for RSC or NSC.  I'm not going to pull my hair out over another SUI."

But you call them names and think that what they do give us is not enough. 

As for "giving them grad before the earned it"  the regulations disagree with your sentiment.   

[Eclipse]

Any CC who is recruiting people based on giving them grade before they have earned it in CAP should be excused from the room.

This issue is one of the reasons we have so many empty shirts, members who treat the mission like a menu, and
lifer Captains.

It is this attitude why we get people who quit in a huff!   "What have you done for me lately?"  "I Don't know...let's see I've been with the program for 5-6 years now....I've jumped through a bunch of hoops...done my time in the trenches....now I would like to just take a step back and enjoy myself.   I'll be there for you when you need me...I'll keep my ES proficiencies up....but I'm not going to spend any more of my leave time for RSC or NSC.  I'm not going to pull my hair out over another SUI."

Comparing apples and walnuts doesn't make your point.  I also called no one names, unless the term fits.

There's a grand canyon of difference between someone coming in off the street and expecting an advanced promotion and someone
with 5-6 years serving the program.

In >my< example, they are untested and undeserving, in yours, of course they should be promoted, to whatever level they
have seen fit to work towards.  At that point they should absolutely be a Captain, probably reaching for major,
but if, as you say, at that point they decide to "step back", or choose not to complete non-waivable requirements,
then of course they would >not< be promoted.

In your world, how far is history supposed to reach back?  "I was a TAC at an encampment 8 years ago so give me my oaks?"

Yes, much of CAP, like LIFE is "what have you done for me lately and what do you pan to do next week, because
the work doesn't stop just because you decided to "step back".  It's just more for someone else to do, and then that person gets
the chance for promotions and decorations.

As for "giving them grad before the earned it"  the regulations disagree with your sentiment.

They literally do not.

"Eligible" absolutely  does not equal "deserves" or "earned".

Last I checked I was "eligible" to be the President of the United States that doesn't mean I've "earned" it, or deserve it.

I've known plenty of people "eligible" for things in CAP that neither one of us would even consider promoting, and plenty more
"ineligible" who should be wearing heavy grade.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Any CC who is recruiting people based on giving them grade before they have earned it in CAP should be excused from the room.

This issue is one of the reasons we have so many empty shirts, members who treat the mission like a menu, and
lifer Captains.

Some of us "lifer Captains," and you know what I mean in my own circumstances, know that in the view of those above us, we will never merit promotion to field grade because of personality type, what constitutes "exceptional," etc.

That is why I have chosen the German Luftwaffe Stabshauptmann as my little sig-line picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stabshauptmann

[brackins23]

Hey thanks for the replies. I definitely did not intend to start an argument here. I am going to reengage this week.

[Panache]

Hey thanks for the replies. I definitely did not intend to start an argument here. I am going to reengage this week.

This is CAPTalk.  Arguments are inevitable.

You could post "the sky is blue" and it would turn into a 100-post debate before finally settling on uniforms somehow.

[Eclipse]

Hey thanks for the replies. I definitely did not intend to start an argument here. I am going to reengage this week.

This is CAPTalk.  Arguments are inevitable.

You could post "the sky is blue" and it would turn into a 100-post debate before finally settling on uniforms somehow.

Actually...

[Luis R. Ramos]

This is CAPTalk.  Arguments are inevitable.

You could post "the sky is blue" and it would turn into a 100-post debate before finally settling on uniforms somehow.

It is not! The correct color is Cyan!!!

[Luis R. Ramos]

...and the BBDUs are too deep to be sky-color...

There! Moved it off-topic and posted the uniform off-shoot as well!

[Panache]

This is CAPTalk.  Arguments are inevitable.

You could post "the sky is blue" and it would turn into a 100-post debate before finally settling on uniforms somehow.

It is not! The correct color is Cyan!!!

Fool!  Everybody knows it's more of a shade of azure.

[AlphaSigOU]

This is CAPTalk.  Arguments are inevitable.

You could post "the sky is blue" and it would turn into a 100-post debate before finally settling on uniforms somehow.

It is not! The correct color is Cyan!!!

Fool!  Everybody knows it's more of a shade of azure.

No, no, NO!!! It's the color of infinity - sky blue pink with a purple hue!  (Those of you who remember the 'panic button' will know this.)

[JeffDG]

Any CC who is recruiting people based on giving them grade before they have earned it in CAP should be excused from the room.

This issue is one of the reasons we have so many empty shirts, members who treat the mission like a menu, and
lifer Captains.

Like folks who think "Mission Pilot" is a duty position, and everything else is "not my problem"?

[arajca]

For those folks who are happy working at the squadron level and work through the PD program, Capt is a good goal and permanent grade. Although some here will cry "irrelevant", the public in general sees lieutenants as leaders in training or the guy/gal handling things until a real leader shows up. Again, to the general public, a captain is a real leader. So I have not problem with career captains in CAP.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

For those folks who are happy working at the squadron level and work through the PD program, Capt is a good goal and permanent grade. Although some here will cry "irrelevant", the public in general sees lieutenants as leaders in training or the guy/gal handling things until a real leader shows up. Again, to the general public, a captain is a real leader. So I have not problem with career captains in CAP.

I don't either...for those who are willing to be "career captains."  Others have had the way up the ladder blocked.

Again, this shows, IN MY OPINION, the need for a warrant officer track specifically FOR those who choose to/can only specialise in a speciality track, who do not have the ability and/or desire to "sell themselves" to those at Group, Wing, etc. level to merit promotion to field grade.

I have known those who choose to be "career second lieutenants" - mostly pilots in senior squadrons who do not care about anything but flying.  Such a track would be good for them too.  It certainly works for the Army.

[Panache]

It certainly works for the Army.

Such heresy will not be tolerated in CAP. Repent, heretic, or you will burn.

[AirAux]

IIRC, They took the blue from the skies and  a pretty girl's eyes and a touch of Old Glory's hue, and gave it to the men who proudly wear the U.S. Air Force blue...

And you can wear it too!  The U.S. ... Air Force ... Blue.


Yay, another uniform thread..

[Storm Chaser]

IMHO, PD Levels should be the way CAP members progress in the senior program, awards the way they are recognized for their contributions, and grades the way they show their level of responsibility (past or present). Promotions should be used to identify potential for increased responsibilities, in addition to successful past duty assignments, accomplishments and contributions commensurable with the grade held.

[Майор Хаткевич]

IMHO, PD Levels should be the way CAP members progress in the senior program, awards the way they are recognized for their contributions, and grades the way they show their level of responsibility (past or present). Promotions should be used to identify potential for increased responsibilities, in addition to successful past duty assignments, accomplishments and contributions commensurable with the grade held.

It is...technically.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

IMHO, PD Levels should be the way CAP members progress in the senior program, awards the way they are recognized for their contributions, and grades the way they show their level of responsibility (past or present). Promotions should be used to identify potential for increased responsibilities, in addition to successful past duty assignments, accomplishments and contributions commensurable with the grade held.

It is...technically.

On paper, but too often not in practice.  If someone at any level does not like you, you can stay stuck in a grade forever or at least until the person who does not like you is no longer in a position of influence.

[Eclipse]

If at any point a member feels he is being discriminated against, or otherwise treated inappropriately he can file a complaint.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If at any point a member feels he is being discriminated against, or otherwise treated inappropriately he can file a complaint.

Someone not liking you and someone actively being discriminated against can be very different, and hard to prove.

[Eclipse]

If at any point a member feels he is being discriminated against, or otherwise treated inappropriately he can file a complaint.

Someone not liking you and someone actively being discriminated against can be very different, and hard to prove.

Agreed, however regardless, there is a process in these situations, and if one decides not to avail themselves,
for whatever reason, then the situation will stand.

Dwelling on it, or wearing on your sleeve, won't change anything.

We all live and die at the pleasure of our CAP commanders - those people change over time, as
are we also able to change where we serve, so nothing is permanent, I would guess most
people active in CAP have either bumped heads with, or otherwise displeased someone
in the chain along the way, usually to a delayed something or other missed opportunities.

[brackins23]

LOL still no resolution. Looking to transfer to a new SQ later on.  OH YEAH THE SKY IS NOT BLUE ITS A CYAN  COLOR..

[brackins23]

You guys will find this funny!!!! I asked again about the situation. First I was told I was wrong that it was 6 months and there were not any special promotions, etc. Then I was told I have sent emails to higher leadership and which no one has replied after 5 weeks. Then I was told the program does exist but I do not know how to do the paper work for the promotion, but I have emails out and no one has replied to them. I'm not to concerned about the promotion ahead of time as I did not know it existed until someone pointed it out to me. I'm just happy to be doing this with my wife and two kids, but at least be competent and spend 5 minutes or less and read the the section in the CAPR that I just printed and gave you before making up crap. Now to top it off I was told that my youngest kids paperwork for his AMN stripe has been misplaced within 30 seconds of being told he had not completed his PT test nor drill test, which myself and cadet program officer informed the cc that was not correct and he had completed all requirements, however the other cadet that completed all his requirements along with my son was just promoted last night which is outstanding for the young man as he has worked hard to quickly complete his requirements.  Now I have a very ANGRY 12 year old that was excited about CAP and now wants to quit and never return. This is a very small squadron with only two cadets that normally show for meetings, all though we have missed some since march.  I have been told going outside of the squadron for a complaint on a subject like this is like making a pit-bull angry at you in a confined space. I am highly considering going all active duty SNCO Flight Engineer kind of off, but don't want to cause a major uproar since we have only been in CAP since March. Any Ideas how to proceed?

[Eclipse]

Take a breath, it's just CAP...

...I was told that my youngest kids paperwork for his AMN stripe has been misplaced within 30 seconds of being told he had not completed his PT test nor drill test, which myself and cadet program officer informed the cc that was not correct and he had completed all requirements, however the other cadet that completed all his requirements along with my son was just promoted last night which is outstanding for the young man as he has worked hard to quickly complete his requirements.  Now I have a very ANGRY 12 year old that was excited about CAP and now wants to quit and never return.

He can be promoted online in a couple of clicks, there's really no "paperwork" other then what they may be using to track things until it is entered.

This is a very small squadron with only two cadets that normally show for meetings,

This is probably the core of the problem - people disconnected from the CAP mainstream, minsinformed and just walking the same circle they always have.

all though we have missed some since march.  I have been told going outside of the squadron for a complaint on a subject like this is like making a pit-bull angry at you in a confined space.

It's really not, other then the people locally getting their noses out of joint because they will be shown to have no clue what they are doing.

I am highly considering going all active duty SNCO Flight Engineer kind of off, but don't want to cause a major uproar since we have only been in CAP since March. Any Ideas how to proceed?

Why not?  If you're ready to quit, what have you got to lose.

Be professional, arm yourself with the regs, and have at it.

Time.
To.
Shake.
Things.
Up.

(However in keeping with CAP tradition, don't be surprised if you're asked to wear the CC badge at the end of the "discussion".)

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

(However in keeping with CAP tradition, don't be surprised if you're asked to wear the CC badge at the end of the "discussion".)

Not just CAP tradition, sir.  This reminds me of a time when I was a Boy Scout.  It was the 1970s and I was probably 11 years old.  I was in a troop that rapidly became known for "playing favourites," especially where the Scoutmaster's son was concerned.  It was no secret he had the rails greased for him to become Eagle Scout and reach the highest level of Order of the Arrow.

One night at a Court of Honour (BSA awards ceremony) the Troop Committee were singing the praises of this kid and other "favoured sons" in the troop, of which I was not one (surprise! ).  My dad, who was not known for his subtlety (he'd been a railway worker, soldier, long-haul trucker, heavy construction equipment operator and diesel mechanic) was sitting there listening to all this, and I knew he was getting angrier with each word.

Finally, he stood up and said "Just wait a minute..."  I won't go into the details of what he said, mostly because the censor won't allow them, but he made it clear that during the times he had helped the troop out that he had noticed the favouritism, whereas those who were on the "good" list basically stood around and let the younger kids do all the work.  He said, "I'm [darn]ed sick and tired of this bull[mess]."

You could have heard a pin drop in that room.

Afterward the Scoutmaster asked my dad if he wanted to be Chairman of the Troop Committee!  Again, I won't repeat what my dad said.

I was later basically kicked out of the troop; or, rather, they made it so miserable for me that I didn't even want to go.

Justice eventually came, though: about 10 years after that the local Scout council ejected both the Scoutmaster and his wife for "corrupt actions," as I understand it.

I wonder how many parents of Cadets have experienced a similar way that their kids have been treated by CAP squadrons with "leaders" who couldn't find their backsides with GPS and a compass, and if powers-that-be up the chain helped them.

[gshayd]

I am also a new member who is eligible for a special promotion. Based on the facts presented and the regulations I would say that you have no basis to file a complaint.

1.  The special promotion is not mandatory or automatic
2.  It is at the commanders discretion
3.  It also says that the promotion should be for exemplary performance to merit the promotion.

If you can make the argument and have valid examples of your exemplary performance you may have an argument. If you have just attended the meetings, have your uniforms squared away and have completed Level 1.  I would say you have met the minimum requirements. Even if you have been an exemplary member see #1 and #2. Which gives you no complaint to file unless you have specific proof that the commander has committed a violation of the regulations due to personal bias.  You will probably lose on that too in a complaint.

As a leader and mentor in my opinion I would sit down with the individual and explain why I was delaying or not giving the special promotion. However, the commander is not required to do that.

My advice would be to wait the 6 months and revisit the issue then.

[brackins23]

I could care less about the early promotion as I did not know it existed until another member pointed it out to me. However telling me a different story every week about it is what the issues is here. I only bring it up as when I first inquired I was told I was wrong that there was not a program for this and then when I showed the CAPR reference I was told the CAPR reference was not valid any longer even though it is a newly updated CAPR.  The emails are out but no one replies. So I hope you see my frustration here. And as far as just showing up to meetings, I am very far past just completing level 1 as I have already completed the basic O course and all the general ES requirements, AE test one, instructor course, communications, etc...  But Like I said I could care less about the early promtion. Perhaps I just don't like made up answers that totally contradict regs.

I am also a new member who is eligible for a special promotion. Based on the facts presented and the regulations I would say that you have no basis to file a complaint.

1.  The special promotion is not mandatory or automatic
2.  It is at the commanders discretion
3.  It also says that the promotion should be for exemplary performance to merit the promotion.

If you can make the argument and have valid examples of your exemplary performance you may have an argument. If you have just attended the meetings, have your uniforms squared away and have completed Level 1.  I would say you have met the minimum requirements. Even if you have been an exemplary member see #1 and #2. Which gives you no complaint to file unless you have specific proof that the commander has committed a violation of the regulations due to personal bias.  You will probably lose on that too in a complaint.

As a leader and mentor in my opinion I would sit down with the individual and explain why I was delaying or not giving the special promotion. However, the commander is not required to do that.

My advice would be to wait the 6 months and revisit the issue then.

[Eclipse]

I could care less about the early promotion as I did not know it existed until another member pointed it out to me. However telling me a different story every week about it is what the issues is here. I only bring it up as when I first inquired I was told I was wrong that there was not a program for this and then when I showed the CAPR reference I was told the CAPR reference was not valid any longer even though it is a newly updated CAPR.  The emails are out but no one replies. So I hope you see my frustration here. And as far as just showing up to meetings, I am very far past just completing level 1 as I have already completed the basic O course and all the general ES requirements, AE test one, instructor course, communications, etc...  But Like I said I could care less about the early promtion. Perhaps I just don't like made up answers that totally contradict regs.

Your frustration is fair, and sadly not atypical.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

I could care less about the early promotion as I did not know it existed until another member pointed it out to me. However telling me a different story every week about it is what the issues is here. I only bring it up as when I first inquired I was told I was wrong that there was not a program for this and then when I showed the CAPR reference I was told the CAPR reference was not valid any longer even though it is a newly updated CAPR.  The emails are out but no one replies. So I hope you see my frustration here. And as far as just showing up to meetings, I am very far past just completing level 1 as I have already completed the basic O course and all the general ES requirements, AE test one, instructor course, communications, etc...  But Like I said I could care less about the early promtion. Perhaps I just don't like made up answers that totally contradict regs.

Your frustration is fair, and sadly not atypical.

1.  Welcome to the Good Ol Boyz Club,
2.  Not Invented Here.

Reasons why at the end of next month I will be an ex-member.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Again, I am reminded of the guy that joined my first squadron.

He was a brainiac - pilot's qualifications up the wazoo and a gold-plated degree from Embry-Riddle, and an aeronautical engineer in his day job.  I think he helped somehow with the design of the Taiwanese (Republic of China) Air Force's Ching-Kuo fighter (kind of a cross between an F-16 and F-18), but I'm not exactly sure how.



He insisted on coming in as an SMWOG and working up the ladder, and wearing the uniform properly.

I liked and respected him very much and was always glad to fly with him.

[Garibaldi]

Again, I am reminded of the guy that joined my first squadron.

He was a brainiac - pilot's qualifications up the wazoo and a gold-plated degree from Embry-Riddle, and an aeronautical engineer in his day job.  I think he helped somehow with the design of the Taiwanese (Republic of China) Air Force's Ching-Kuo fighter (kind of a cross between an F-16 and F-18), but I'm not exactly sure how.



He insisted on coming in as an SMWOG and working up the ladder, and wearing the uniform properly.

I liked and respected him very much and was always glad to fly with him.

I remember a similar story that a former commander in Wisconsin told me once. A gentleman came into CAP with a LOT of AE experience, so they pushed and pushed and got him a special promotion to LTC. He was in the program for a little while when he finally said "You know, for a lieutenant colonel, I don't know enough about the program. Take it away and give me something a bit more suited to me."

Then there was my former commander in Arkansas who was a Commander in the Navy when he retired, and was flying a Saudi prince around for a while, and when he finally came back to the states he decided to join and fly. He insisted he start at 2nd Lt and work his way up. That lasted about...oh, I'm gonna say a year before he became squadron commander, and finally gave in to peer pressure and became a LTC.

Then, there is me, who rejoined after 6 years and made such a stink about getting my rank back that I made enemies at Wing.

[brackins23]

Totally understandable Cyborg as that's what I planned and still plan. That's why did not ask for a waiver for the BOC nor SLS as those courses are CAP specific. I only ask about the special promotion to hear the latest weekly story on it. ( I am still waiting to hear the old joke, well my brothers sisters cousin BFF's friend said) I think if a person were there in person to see this and it's not only myself seeing it nor saying anything about it. Yes I have a nice gold plated degree from Embry-Riddle also and fly and maintain some things for my day job. Honestly after 22 years active duty I just expect a major to not make up crap as we go along as I hear weekly how the Military is (CC never been in mil). As from my previous post about my kid completing all his requirements for his AMN stripe and then seeing firsthand how that just went down with him not being promoted along with the other cadet that completed his requirements at the same time with my son put a really really bad taste in my mouth. Same rule of thought logic applied here also as within 30 seconds, the conversation went from he has not completed all his requirements for promotion to I have misplaced his records and well he may have to re complete some of the requirements to be promoted. Funny how they both completed those at the same time but one is lost . But I am just a little aggravated. So I probably will not make any more post about it here as I don't want this to go the wrong direction on postings. This is a super great forum for info. And I have changed my mind the sky is dark blue not cyan.

Again, I am reminded of the guy that joined my first squadron.

He was a brainiac - pilot's qualifications up the wazoo and a gold-plated degree from Embry-Riddle, and an aeronautical engineer in his day job.  I think he helped somehow with the design of the Taiwanese (Republic of China) Air Force's Ching-Kuo fighter (kind of a cross between an F-16 and F-18), but I'm not exactly sure how.



He insisted on coming in as an SMWOG and working up the ladder, and wearing the uniform properly.

I liked and respected him very much and was always glad to fly with him.

[gshayd]

I could care less about the early promotion as I did not know it existed until another member pointed it out to me. However telling me a different story every week about it is what the issues is here. I only bring it up as when I first inquired I was told I was wrong that there was not a program for this and then when I showed the CAPR reference I was told the CAPR reference was not valid any longer even though it is a newly updated CAPR.  The emails are out but no one replies. So I hope you see my frustration here. And as far as just showing up to meetings, I am very far past just completing level 1 as I have already completed the basic O course and all the general ES requirements, AE test one, instructor course, communications, etc...  But Like I said I could care less about the early promtion. Perhaps I just don't like made up answers that totally contradict regs.

Your frustration is fair, and sadly not atypical.

I understand your frustration. I am a Human Resources person for the military.  If I had a $1.00 for every circular chase and wrong answer I got since 1986 I would be on the beach under an umbrella drinking cold brews. I have had to learn to pick the battles I can win and not the ones were commanders discretion is a phrase.

[SARDOC]

I know that my wing has a promotion board that covers anything not a duty related promotion.  The Committee would also want to see what the member was doing to earn that grade as all professional appointments and the like are actually approved at the Wing Commander level.  The Committee makes it's recommendation to the Wing King.

[CAPAPRN]

Actually I am on that board and the "Wing King" has to submit his/ her approvals for "Region Demi-god" approval

[BHartman007]

...I also have a B.S. Aviation Degree...

Aren't they all these days...