Can 2 (or more) people get credit for recruiting one person?

[LSThiker]

No it is for both.

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices.  There is no other mechanism for submitting or
entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

You have not answered the question:  "what is the regulation that forms said basis?"  Can I really argue with proof, and not opinion, if a commander were to disagree with me on this subject?

As you said, "as indicated".  It is only indicated on the CAPF 12/15 for recruiting purposes and it is optional.  It does not indicate for award criteria.  If it is the sole source for award determination, then it should not be optional.  For award criteria, you must turn to CAPR 39-3.

Unfortunately, CAPR 39-3 is pretty mute on the subject:

k. Recruiter Ribbons. Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.

(1) Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.
(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets.

[LSThiker]

Or you could get the app back unprocessed.

Yeah.  Not really a good idea for experimentation by possibly delaying a members application.

[MSG Mac]

The individual who is recruited determines who recruited him/her. If they say both Bob and Mary were equally responsible, I would give each credit. The Recruiting report is only a tool for the Commander, who awards the Recruiting Ribbon and is the final word on who gets the ribbon and credit.

[talldude]

Tall

The question is what are you doing to recruit them. Are you talking to them about CAP, the uniforms, the activities? Then are you going back to that person with more info? Then comparing etc.? It is not just "I talked to him for ten minutes, he saw me with the uniform, so I want credit for recruiting him / her now."

Flyer

Our plan is to talk for about 30 minutes - 10 min for each CAP Mission then about 15 extra minutes for questions. However, as NIN suggested, we plan to recruit multiple cadets from multiple schools, airshows, festivals, etc. So hopefully every one on the team will get a ribbon.

Personally, I think it should be up to the member applicant to pick the cadet (or possibly cadets) that is(/are) most responsible for their joining. Not for them to just put down a cadet's name, because that cadet told them too.

Dudes,

Stop arguing and place two names on that spot! See what NHQ Does!!! If they accept both names, you are OK. If they accept only one, there is your answer!!!

Flyer

Sir, I wasn't arguing with anyone.. I just put out a question, then later posted why I asked the question. I didn't say anyone was right or wrong. I apologize if it came across as an argument.
BTW I will be putting both my brother's name and my name on my youngest brother's membership application (in August) and see what happens.

[LSThiker]

Sir, I wasn't arguing with anyone.. I just put out a question, then later posted why I asked the question. I didn't say anyone was right or wrong. I apologize if it came across as an argument.
BTW I will be putting both my brother's name and my name on my youngest brother's membership application (in August) and see what happens.

He was not referring to you.  He is referring to my question.

[NIN]

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices. There is no other mechanism for submitting or entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

Cite?  39-3, para 21k(1) or (2), says nothing of the sort.  I don't disagree with that as the mechanism, BTW, but the entire thing is broken if you're relying on NHQ to track that data via that particular entry.

1) Who knows a particular person's CAPID at the time the CAPF 15 or 12 goes downrange?  Not often!
2) Does that even get tracked in eServices? (I may not have the perms to see any of that at the moment)

What we've done in the past at the unit, before any kind of e-services tracking, was to have the cadet submit a CAPF 2a with the names of the recruits in the remarks block.  I don't believe we ever had situations where people took credit for the same recruit, but even if we did, whats the big deal?

[Storm Chaser]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

[Eclipse]

The award mechanism is via the app, the app says "most responsible" and expects a single CAPID.

Anything else is ribbon trolling and we should not be encouraging that behavior.

There's also no cite in either direction.

[LSThiker]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

Burden of proof falls on the person making a claim. I have not made a claim yet. Plus you cannot prove a negative.

That is Philosophy 101. I do not drink coffee, but I will take tea.

[Eclipse]

^ The "you can't prove a negative" doesn't work in the parlance of "authorized only if indicated" military-style regulations
and similar documents.  In those cases, it's "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

In this case, absent any verbiage to the group concept, a single mechanism for credit and that mechanism having clarity
about the submission, there's no room for interpretation.

In order for more then one person to get credit, the submission mechanism and verbiage would have to be changed.

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

[talldude]

Awards are presented for the number of recruits indicated in eServices. There is no other mechanism for submitting or entering those CAPIDs.   As indicated, only one person can be "most" responsible.

Cite?  39-3, para 21k(1) or (2), says nothing of the sort.  I don't disagree with that as the mechanism, BTW, but the entire thing is broken if you're relying on NHQ to track that data via that particular entry.

1) Who knows a particular person's CAPID at the time the CAPF 15 or 12 goes downrange?  Not often!
2) Does that even get tracked in eServices? (I may not have the perms to see any of that at the moment)

What we've done in the past at the unit, before any kind of e-services tracking, was to have the cadet submit a CAPF 2a with the names of the recruits in the remarks block.  I don't believe we ever had situations where people took credit for the same recruit, but even if we did, whats the big deal?

When I joined, I only put down my friend's name.  I didn't put down his "CAP ID" because I didn't know what that was at the time. He was/is at a different squadron than I am/was and somehow they were able to track him down (I'm not sure, but he may have requested it). Anyways, the next time I saw him (months after I joined) he had his recruiter ribbon an I was one of the members he had recruited.

[LSThiker]

The award mechanism is via the app, the app says "most responsible" and expects a single CAPID.

Anything else is ribbon trolling and we should not be encouraging that behavior.

That is a different question.

There's also no cite in either direction.

If that is the case, then you cannot say "No" unless you are specifically expressing an opinion.

[Eclipse]

When I joined, I only put down my friend's name.  I didn't put down his "CAP ID" because I didn't know what that was at the time. He was/is at a different squadron than I am/was and somehow they were able to track him down (I'm not sure, but he may have requested it). Anyways, the next time I saw him (months after I joined) he had his recruiter ribbon an I was one of the members he had recruited.

Odds are the Commander at the time corrected the name to CAP ID.

[LSThiker]

^ The "you can't prove a negative" doesn't work in the parlance of "authorized only if indicated" military-style regulations
and similar documents.  In those cases, it's "if it doesn't say you can, you can't".

So if that is the case, do you tie your boots as CAPM 39-1 does say to do it as stated by Flyer   Actually, it specifically only says laced-up for shoes.  Such verbiage does not exist under the combat boots section.

In this case, absent any verbiage to the group concept, a single mechanism for credit and that mechanism having clarity
about the submission, there's no room for interpretation.

In this case, absent any verbiage to the single concept, there's no room for interpretation as well.

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

Not a final answer.  Again, CAPR 39-3 determines award criteria, not CAPF 15 or eServices.

[Storm Chaser]

LSThiker, please cite the regulation that says we can give credit for one recruit to two recruiters for the Recruiter Ribbon. I'll go get a cup of coffee while you look that up.

Burden of proof falls on the person making a claim.

Is there a regulation that states that? Because, apparently, if it's not spelled out in a regulation, it must NOT be true.

I do not drink coffee, but I will take tea.

The coffee was for me.

[NIN]

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

I don't recall there was a spot for that in the new online form.

/beta tester

[talldude]

Is this what you mean by the online application:http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/f012_15378c3760422.pdf   ??

[Eclipse]

Here's something that is the final answer, I can't check it.  How many CAPIDs can you indicate on the new online form?

I don't recall there was a spot for that in the new online form.

/beta tester

Forgive me if I am not shocked.

[NIN]

Or there may have been a spot on the application, I just don't remember, and my notes are not with me at the moment.

As I recall, the questions and boxes pretty much exactly replicated the data on the existing form, so I don't think they would have dropped it. But I will have to check my screen grabs.

[lordmonar]

This illustrates a problem with the recruiting ribbon, e-services, how we verify accomplishments, and just general attitudes towards ribbons and awards.


The OP simply asked the question.....can two cadets get credit for recruiting the same new member?.

Okay.......

k. Recruiter Ribbons.
Awarded by the unit commander to cadets and senior members in
recognition of outstanding efforts to recruit new members for CAP.

(1)  Cadet Ribbon. Awarded to cadets who recruit two new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional two members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An
additional silver clasp will be awarded for each additional 10 members recruited.

(2) Senior Ribbon. Awarded to senior members who recruit seven new qualified cadets or senior members for CAP. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 members recruited. A silver clasp replaces five bronze clasps. Bronze clasps are not worn after the silver clasp is awarded. An additional silver clasp is awarded for each additional 50 members recruited. Members recruited as a cadet may be included in
determining entitlement in the case of senior members who were former cadets

So......zero mention about what the source document to "prove" who did the recruiting.  No mention about who was "most responsible".....it just says recruit XX qualified members.

Okay....the membership application has a spot for someone to put in a number.....and E-services does track that.....but again 39-3 does not say if the application information or E-services are the sole source documents.

Now on the comment about ribbon trolling.......FOUL!  10 Yard Penalty!   We do a lot of things in CAP as a team!   Often multiple people may be involved in the process of recruiting a new member.   I know in my squadron a perspective member gets the sales pitch from several members during their three meeting visits.   So who get's the credit?   I can certainly see where a member may get bent when he/she spends a significant amount of time recruiting a perspective member and the credit is solely given to another member of the team!  So it is a legitimate question and is not to be disparaged.

Okay......now that I've ranted......I have some possible solutions.

Partial Credit.
BITD when being an ACE was a big deal for pilots (like yesterday), when all those P-51s came back and de-breifed......the bean counters had trouble on figuring out who was responsible for shooting down enemy aircraft.    Red One gave that ME-109 two bursts of .50 and started smoking, then the B-17 gave him a good burst from the belly gun, then Red Five put in another burst and then the plane started spiraling down to the earth.    So....who shot down the ME-109?   

Back in the day.....they would award partial credit......if it came down to two pilots....they both got 0.5 credit (sometimes even less)

So......start a recruiting spreadsheet....and award credit as needed.   10 guys work a recruiting booth....they recruit 15 new members.....they each get 1.5 recruits.

Two brothers recruit their next door neighbor, 0.5 credit each.

That is one solution.

Second possible solution.

Award whole credit to more then one person.  Two brothers recruit their school chum.....they both get credit for 1 recruit.   Nothing I can find says that the number of people recruited must match the number of ribbons awarded.


On this same theme........what about group efforts like recruiting booths or open houses?    IMHO there should be a second way of earning a recruiting ribbon......"Participate in XX hours of recruiting at at least XX events".......I would suggest 20 hours at at least 4 events....this would be "recruiting service" award as opposed to "recruiting achievement" award........I AM NOT SUGGESTING A NEW RIBBON!!!!! just a new way to earn the existing ribbon. (I am also suggesting we eliminate the cadet recruiting award.....and just roll them all into one ribbon).

Rant done.